Faith alone

[nedsk]

No, faith cannot stand alone. Without belief, faith is just what atheists believe. That there is no God.



Please explain.

You want to attach faith to belief? Really????

Wow I need to explain? Matthew 7:21 notice the verb "does"

Matthew 25:31-46. Pay attention to v 34.

I can't believe I even have to do this

 

[PinSeeker]

No, faith cannot stand alone. Without belief, faith is just what atheists believe. That there is no God.

Our belief in God... and our will to do His will... is because God has given us new birth by His Spirit, put His Spirit in us. He gives us this new heart, and because that, we come to believe, and to do good works. We are God's workmanship. created for good works (Ephesians 2)

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

You want to attach faith to belief? Really????

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as one does not understand them to be one and the same thing, and that belief is a result of faith ~ God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit.

Grace and peace.

 

[nedsk]

Yes there would. Works validate our faith and prove it to be genuine. Most of us view faith through our Greco/Western paradigm. The bible isn't speaking of faith the way the greek philosophers did, as some intellectual quality. In Hebrew culture faith had an entirely different meaning. Faith, to them, was something you could hang your body and all you have on. The Jews knew what Jesus and Paul meant by "believe". James caution was a correction of the paradigm the gentiles had concerning faith. One which is still with us today. James was showing us how faith was validated. However, the term "faith alone" is a misnomer. We are saved by grace THROUGH faith. No grace....no salvation. How does grace work? Through faith!

Lol prove it to who? God doest know if your faith isnt genuine unless you validate it? Is that really your argument????

Even if what you say is true then faith alone(sola fide) can't be sufficient if faith has to be validated as genuine by works.

 

[nedsk]

There's nothing wrong with that, as long as one does not understand them to be one and the same thing, and that belief is a result of faith ~ God's assurance and conviction by the Spirit.

Grace and peace.

But we're talking about faith alone (sola fide). If faith is sufficient then nothing else is needed . Thats what sufficient means.

 

[Angelina]

You want to attach faith to belief? Really????

Wow I need to explain? Matthew 7:21 notice the verb "does"

Matthew 25:31-46. Pay attention to v 34.

I can't believe I even have to do this

Thank you.

Wow I need to explain? Matthew 7:21 notice the verb "does"

So you're moving from this thread about faith based on belief to; doing the will of the Father. This requires that someone already knows God will and has not done so but is rather moving in their own flesh, their own desires?

Matthew 25:31-46. Pay attention to v 34.

Again, this verse does not associate with the thread we are on. Do you think the believers in these paragraphs who feed the hungry etc: did so without belief in God and moving in that belief by faith?

I can't believe I even have to do this

Yes dear, you have to do this because you're throwing verses out of context. Thank you though. Perhaps I understand you more.

 

[Angelina]

Our belief in God... and our will to do His will... is because God has given us new birth by His Spirit, put His Spirit in us. He gives us this new heart, and because that, we come to believe, and to do good works. We are God's workmanship. created for good works (Ephesians 2)

Grace and peace to you.

Yes, dear. Believing is the very pinnacle of our faith. Then when we receive Jesus based on the truth of his word, that belief, we become children of God by faith in that truth, that belief.

 

[nedsk]

Thank you.

So you're moving from this thread about faith based on belief to; doing the will of the Father. This requires that someone already knows God will and has not done so but is rather moving in their own flesh, their own desires?


Again, this verse does not associate with the thread we are on. Do you think the believers in these paragraphs who feed the hungry etc: did so without belief in God and moving in that belief by faith?



Yes dear, you have to do this because you're throwing verses out of context. Thank you though. Perhaps I understand you more.

The topic of the thread is faith alone and I explained the purpose of the thread in the OP. YOU are talking about faith/belief not me.

It relates perfectly.

Ah yes the old, "out of context" argument. This is how I know we are nearing the end of useful conversation. It's funny how every thing is always taken "out of context" when it disagrees with you folks and you always insist you have the perfect understanding of the context. It's amazing. Only your understanding now correct, am I right? Let's save time, of course I am.

 

[gpresdo]

The issue of faith and works is big in the, can you lose your salvation, thread so I thought we'd focus on that specifically here. Scripture is quite clear to all but the most stubborn that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Some argue that works "flow" from faith as if faith causes works. Some say works are "evidence" of faith as if we need to prove our faith to someone. Would that be God? I bet he knows our faith or lack thereof. If works aren't a freely chosen act then we aren't acting out of love. Love demands a free act of the will. Jesus had to choose the cross hence the agony in the garden. If it wasn't a freely chosen act by Jesus then the crucifixion was just another roman execution.

Sounds like a biblical correctness.
Faith without works is dead....

 

[Angelina]

Scripture is quite clear to all but the most stubborn that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Some argue that works "flow" from faith as if faith causes works. Some say works are "evidence" of faith as if we need to prove our faith to someone. Would that be God?

This is part of your O/P. Faith is sufficient for salvation when that faith is accompanied by revelation of God's truth. Then that revelation is taken up in the heart and received. When belief in what God has revealed is received, it becomes faith. You may not believe this but it's your choice. Believing can also be an action (works) because it is an expression, an exchange from unbelief to belief.

 

[Angelina]

Ah yes the old, "out of context" argument. This is how I know we are nearing the end of useful conversation. It's funny how every thing is always taken "out of context" when it disagrees with you folks and you always insist you have the perfect understanding of the context. It's amazing. Only your understanding now correct, am I right? Let's save time, of course I am.

Well, dear, it is out of context; any person reading this can clearly see that.

 

[Angelina]

It's funny how every thing is always taken "out of context" when it disagrees with you folks and you always insist you have the perfect understanding of the context. It's amazing. Only your understanding now correct, am I right? Let's save time, of course I am.

I am not going to argue with you, as I would not like to devalue your thread by answering a strawman's argument because it is a relevant discussion that requires investigation, placing it up against the measuring line of the word of God.

 

[shepherdsword]

Lol prove it to who? God doest know if your faith isnt genuine unless you validate it? Is that really your argument????

You are ignorant of a great many things. It would be wise to be more humble. Of course the Lord knows genuine faith. However, the angelic principalities and powers do not. Nor do the satanic powers of darkness. Read Job 1 for a test of faith that God permitted even though He knew beforehand what the result would be.
Read Job 1,Isa 6:1-8 and 1Kings 22:19-23 for a glimpse into the Divine council.

Even if what you say is true then faith alone(sola fide) can't be sufficient if faith has to be validated as genuine by works.

Faith validated is still faith alone. The works are just the fruit of it. HOWEVER, I agree "sola fide" is not accurate. It is GRACE that saves and that works through faith so it's not sola fide. Not works PLUS faith but rather Grace THROUGH faith.

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

 

[Charlie24]

The apostle Paul is the only author of Scripture that tells us directly how to be saved, the rest are illustrations of some being saved and not a direct explanation as the great apostle gives us.

Concerning the role works have in our salvation, he says,

Rom. 11:6

"And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Paul is telling us that works for salvation/justification cancels out Grace, and Grace cancels out works.

This verse is one of several that gave birth to the doctrine of "faith alone."

There's an old Baptist saying that goes along with this verse, "we work because we are saved not to get saved."

 

[Angelina]

Ephesians 2:8-9 AMP
For it is by grace [God’s remarkable compassion and favor drawing you to Christ] that you have been saved [actually delivered from judgment and given eternal life] through faith. And this [salvation] is not of yourselves [not through your own effort], but it is the [undeserved, gracious] gift of God; not as a result of [your] works [nor your attempts to keep the Law], so that no one will [be able to] boast or take credit in any way [for his salvation].

This scripture is more about the law and grace through faith. We Christians today became believers because we believe the salvation message. The message of the cross and receive it by grace through faith. Romans 10:17. The works that are spoken of above are the works of the Law.

 

[Wynona]

Ephesians 2:8-10 does not mean we don't need works in the end. Just that we don't need them in the beginning. Im quoting from an article here.

"
When we were saved, as Christians (Christ followers Acts 11:26), we were placed into Christ”s Kingdom, which is simply the Kingdom of God under Christ’s control.

Ephesians 2:4-10
4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them. NKJV

Colossians 1:12-14
12 giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. 13 He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, 14 in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. NKJV

This is the reason why I would say something like “we were saved into the Kingdom of Christ,” because that is where all Christians were placed by God when we got saved.

Out of those who get saved, only those who trust and believe Jesus Christ, and believe the Gospel are sealed and guaranteed an inheritance.

Ephesians 1:13-14
13 In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory. NKJV

The rest of the Christians, who were saved into the Kingdom of Christ, do not have a permanent place in the family. In other words, they are in the family, but they will not remain, or abide in the family forever, according to the Word of the Lord written in John 8:34-36 below.

John 8:34-36
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed. NKJV

The only Christians, who are set free from being a slave to sin, are the ones who abide (remain) in Jesus. Check the verses below, and know that there is not a church left in the Bible belt that is teaching these verses, but wouldn’t they teach them if they trusted Jesus? Welcome to the last days!

John 15:4-6
4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. 5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. NKJV

1 John 3:4-6
4 Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness. 5 And you know that He was manifested to take away our sins, and in Him there is no sin. 6 Whoever abides in Him does not sin. Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him. NKJV

The only way to abide in Jesus Christ is to obey His commands, and so this is why it is written that Jesus is the source of eternal salvation for those who obey Him, but no body preaches these verses."

----Alan Ballou howtostopsinning.org

 

[shepherdsword]

Out of those who get saved, only those who trust and believe Jesus Christ, and believe the Gospel are sealed and guaranteed an inheritance.

How did they ever get saved without trusting and believing Jesus?

 

[Wynona]

How did they ever get saved without trusting and believing Jesus?

They have to continue to the end.

 

[David Lamb]

They have to continue to the end.

They do and Christians are taught by Paul in his letter to the Philippians:

“being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6 NKJV)

He doesn't begin a good work in a sinner, then leave it to the sinner to continue to the end by themselves.

 

[Papa Smurf]

As I said in the OP some people want to claim works "flow" from faith as if they have no choice in the matter.

Hello again Nedsk, while I have certainly heard many say that the works that we end up doing as Christians are the fruit of/result from God changing us and saving us, I don't ever remember hearing/reading a discussion or study or sermon about not having a choice in the matter (in regard to obeying, pleasing, honoring and/or glorifying God, that is).

This is what I was referring to earlier in the thread when I told you that you seemed to be conflating ideas that have nothing to do with each other (unless we force them to). Your thread title tells me that you want to talk about "Faith Alone", but it seems like your somewhat hidden, but actual issue or concern in this thread has to do with "free will" instead, which is a differnt topic altogether (which, I also believe, may be the source of the confusion in this thread).

That's the only way faith alone could possibly make sense. If work is a choice ... works must be necessary for salvation thereby making faith alone a nonsense belief.

I'm sorry, but I'm simply unable to follow what you are saying above, IOW, that "if work is a choice" that we make, that means that "works must be necessary for salvation" Perhaps you could elaborate a bit on that so that I can understand what you're saying? IOW, if doing good works as a believer is a choice that we make (and it is), how does it then follow that these "works are necessary for salvation"?

Thanks!

If works are a choice then then must be necessary for salvation and thats the only way people could be judged by their actions

That would be true if believers were not already saved/had not already received eternal life from God in this life/prior to the Judgement that we will all stand in (Bema Seat) at the end of the age.

Unlike the Judgment of the reprobate however (Great White Throne) where I believe that all will be judged and condemned, no one will be condemned in the judgment of the saints (as it seems to be a judgment involving the receiving of rewards, or the lack thereof, for works done in the Body during this life). There will apparently be Christians there who did nothing of eternal value during their lives here, and the works that they did do will all be burned up as a result when they are tested.

Nevertheless, their position in Christ, as saved children of God, remains.

As the Scripture tells us,

1 Corinthians 3​

10 According to the grace of God bestowed on me, like a skillful architect and master builder I laid the foundation, and now another man is building upon it. But let each man be careful how he builds upon it, ​

11 for no other foundation can anyone lay than that which is [already] laid, which is Jesus Christ. ​

12 But if anyone builds upon the Foundation, whether it be with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, ​

hay, straw, ​

13 the work of each [one] will become known (shown for what it is); for the day [of Christ] will disclose and declare it, because it will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test and critically appraise the character and worth of the work that each person has done. ​

14 If the work which any person has built on this Foundation [any product of his efforts whatever] survives [this test], he will get his reward. ​

15 But if any person’s work is burned up [under the test], he will suffer loss [of it all, losing his reward], ~though he himself will be saved~, but only as [one who has passed] through fire.​

I'm going to stop here and wait to hear back from you about the elaboration that I asked you for and/or the question that I asked you in my middle reply above.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - I will add this however, that the Reformers doctrine known as sola fide/salvation by faith alone is really a code of sorts (if you will) for something else. Like sola gratia/salvation by grace alone, it's simply a different way of looking at how we are saved, which is Solus Christus/by Christ alone (by what He did for us, IOW, both by the perfect, sinless life that He lived before His Father on our behalf, and by the death that He died in our stead on the Cross (to redeem us).