Faith alone

[mailmandan]

They are talking about two different types of works. However, you conclusion as to those that do mean that they believe "saved by works" is in error. IF they are talking about the same type of works you have put them into contradiction with each other.

If they were talking about two different types of works, then you would have James promoting salvation by works in James 2:24. I have heard numerous folks over the years say Paul and James are talking about two different types of works then afterwards conclude that James is teaching "justified by works" in James 2:24 = "saved by works," which is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. Abraham was before the law and obeying God by setting out to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22 was not an attempt of the flesh to seek justification. Paul clearly said, if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do -- Agree or disagree?

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Hence, faith (rightly understood in Jesus Christ) alone. It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* -- Agree or disagree?

Evidently it wasn't clear enough for James because he wrote:

Jas 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I already thoroughly covered James 2:20-24 in post #111.

Faith alone

Hello Sheri, I noticed that you are a new member so I thought that I should say, welcome to CB.com :ntmetu Also, thank you for posting the passage from James that is so vtial to understand whenever the topic of sola fide is being discussed :thumbsupx1 God bless you!! --Papa Smurf p.s. - you...

www.christianityboard.com

If you can't see that James is not using the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3) then you are left with "justified by works" = "saved by works" in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3.

And here comes your OSAS dogma: No fruit would imply they failed to abide in the vine:

James 2:14-24 has nothing to do with OSAS vs. NOSAS but has everything to do with genuine faith vs. an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Jn 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I agree with AT Robertson - In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. *Judas did not abide because Judas was unclean. (John 13:10-11)

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

 

[shepherdsword]

I agree with AT Robertson - In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. *Judas did not abide because Judas was unclean. (John 13:10-11)

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

These responses just keep getting longer and longer ad nauseum. I will focus on this point which I think is the crux of the biscuit.

I agree with RT as well. Jesus will keep bearing fruit through them as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.


Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works. Not the self righteous efforts Paul spoke of but rather the works produced by true faith that James spoke of. They are not and cannot be the same thing.

 

[mailmandan]

Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works.

You and I may not agree on everything but at least we agree here.

 

[amigo de christo]

These responses just keep getting longer and longer ad nauseum. I will focus on this point which I think is the crux of the biscuit.

I agree with RT as well. Jesus will keep bearing fruit through them as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.
View attachment 73889

Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works. Not the self righteous efforts Paul spoke of but rather the works produced by true faith that James spoke of. They are not and cannot be the same thing.

For indeed ye shall know them by their fruits .
HERE IS THE FRUIT OF GOD .
For the FRUIT of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , Righteous and TRUTH proving what is ACCEPTABLE to GOD .
The fruit of the wicked ..........................IS TO SIN .
Any man who embraces his sin or any others sin , justifying it
HAS NOT the SPIRIT of THE HOLY GOD . For by the spirit cometh the unctions to flee the evil and to do good .
NOT TO CALL EVIL GOOD AN D GOOD EVIL . that cometh of the flesh of man to justify his own evil love of sin .

 

[amigo de christo]

You and I may not agree on everything but at least we agree here.

And what is the very fruit of THE SPIRIT .
And what is the fruit of the wicked .
The FRUIT of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , righteousness and TRUTH , proving what is acceptable TO GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF .
The fruit of the wicked ............IS to sin . and they will find a way and a means to JUSTIFY their sin .
Very rebellious is the heart of man and wicked from his youth up .
THERE BE ONLY ONE WAY TO BE SET FREE from the darkness
HIS NAME , JESUS and YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM . otherwise they still trapped under the power and influence
of the dark one and death .
YE SHALL and YOU SURE CAN know them by their fruits .
NO MAN who is of GOD would omit JESUS THE CHRIST
and nO MAN who claims to BE OF CHRIST would try and turn him into a minstir of sin and unbeleif .
MANY are the nominals these days who still love their sin and thus have loved a lie .

 

[SirJamsalot]

When your heart says, “Oh how I love Thy law”, good works stop being a payment and start looking more like joy leaking out

 

[amigo de christo]

When your heart says, “Oh how I love Thy law”, good works stop being a payment and start looking more like joy leaking out

For the love that comes of GOD puts a love for the words of THE LORD upon our hearts .

 

[mailmandan]

I never said works save us. Can't you read? Faith alone is not sufficient.

Oxymoron. If faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) is not sufficient to save us then works along with faith would save us. Based on your contradictory statement, you indirectly said that works save us. You cannot have it both ways.

 

[amigo de christo]

Oxymoron. If faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9) is not sufficient to save us then works along with faith would save us. Based on your contradictory statement, you indirectly said that works save us. You cannot have it both ways.

Hey mailmandan you might want to go to the salvation t hread
a give me a l ittle help .
Cause the gospel has long been under attack and replaced with favor of this ecumiencal interfaith stuff .
Seeing you cliam faith in JESUS , how ab out some help over there .
I am left alone , as usual , to contend for the one true gospel .
AS YOU said , WE CANT HAVE IT BoTH WAYS .
EITHER LET GOD , thus CHRIST , thus HIS GOSPEL BE TRUE , OR THE ECUMIENCAL INTERFAITH LIE of anti christ interreligious dialogue .
BUT IT CANNOT BE BOTH WE SUPPORT . As for me its LET GOD BE TRUE , thus
LET CHRIST bE TRUE . Let HIS GOSPEL be TRUE . LET the fact that false religoins are in darkness
and do not serve the same GOD we do , BE TRUE .
AND LET NONE try and find common ground with the false religoins that are of the darkness .

 

[David Lamb]

Hey mailmandan you might want to go to the salvation t hread
a give me a l ittle help .
Cause the gospel has long been under attack and replaced with favor of this ecumiencal interfaith stuff .
Seeing you cliam faith in JESUS , how ab out some help over there .
I am left alone , as usual , to contend for the one true gospel .
AS YOU said , WE CANT HAVE IT BoTH WAYS .
EITHER LET GOD , thus CHRIST , thus HIS GOSPEL BE TRUE , OR THE ECUMIENCAL INTERFAITH LIE of anti christ interreligious dialogue .
BUT IT CANNOT BE BOTH WE SUPPORT . As for me its LET GOD BE TRUE , thus
LET CHRIST bE TRUE . Let HIS GOSPEL be TRUE . LET the fact that false religoins are in darkness
and do not serve the same GOD we do , BE TRUE .
AND LET NONE try and find common ground with the false religoins that are of the darkness .

Just a brief post to reassure you that you are not alone in believing inter-faith ecumenism is wrong. Jesus said in John 14:6 that He is the way, the truth and the life, and that nobody comes to God the Father except through Him.

Could you tell us which salvation thread you mean? The one entitled, "Is it Possible to Lose Salvation", or another one? Thanks.

 

[Marvelloustime]

Hey mailmandan you might want to go to the salvation t hread
a give me a l ittle help .
Cause the gospel has long been under attack and replaced with favor of this ecumiencal interfaith stuff .
Seeing you cliam faith in JESUS , how ab out some help over there .
I am left alone , as usual , to contend for the one true gospel .
AS YOU said , WE CANT HAVE IT BoTH WAYS .
EITHER LET GOD , thus CHRIST , thus HIS GOSPEL BE TRUE , OR THE ECUMIENCAL INTERFAITH LIE of anti christ interreligious dialogue .
BUT IT CANNOT BE BOTH WE SUPPORT . As for me its LET GOD BE TRUE , thus
LET CHRIST bE TRUE . Let HIS GOSPEL be TRUE . LET the fact that false religoins are in darkness
and do not serve the same GOD we do , BE TRUE .
AND LET NONE try and find common ground with the false religoins that are of the darkness .

@amigo de christo

 

[Soyeong]

The issue of faith and works is big in the, can you lose your salvation, thread so I thought we'd focus on that specifically here. Scripture is quite clear to all but the most stubborn that faith alone is not sufficient for salvation. Some argue that works "flow" from faith as if faith causes works. Some say works are "evidence" of faith as if we need to prove our faith to someone. Would that be God? I bet he knows our faith or lack thereof. If works aren't a freely chosen act then we aren't acting out of love. Love demands a free act of the will. Jesus had to choose the cross hence the agony in the garden. If it wasn't a freely chosen act by Jesus then the crucifixion was just another roman execution.

Someone can be alone apart from the company of other humans while not being alone apart from the company of their pets, so someone can be alone and not alone at the same time in different senses. We are declared righteous by faith alone apart from works done in order to earn it as the result, but we are not declared righteous by faith alone apart from becoming a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:27-31, 1 John 3:4-7), so the issue of the way to become righteous is different than the issue of what describes the behavior of someone who is righteous. The Law of God was never given as a way of becoming righteous even as the result of having perfect obedience, but rather it was given to describe the behavior of someone who is righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith.

We can do works that show what we believe to be true about who God is, such as with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so the way to believe that God is compassionate is by being compassionate (Luke 6:36), the way to believe that God is holy is by being a doer of His instructions for how to be holy as He is holy (1 Peter 1:16). As followers of God we are called to sanctify His name by making His reputation one with who He is through our works.

 

[Soyeong]

Only reason some are confused on this issue of Faith vs. works is because they allow Satan's host to creep in and confuse the issue.

Abraham believed before the law was given, and before he did anything beforehand. And God counted Abraham's Faith as righteousness. That is how we are 'saved', as a free gift we cannot not ever earn through works. But those of Faith are... to have works to go with their Faith, which is what Apostle James preached. The works in Christ are a natural byproduct of Faith, just as any field of endeavor is wherever one puts their faith.

Then after Abraham had believed, he was circumcised as a symbol of his Faith on The Gospel of Jesus Christ. For those in Christ, we are baptized of water for that.

While it is true that Abraham was righteous because he believed God (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he was a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God because he believed God (Genesis 18:19), so the faith by which he was declared righteous was also embodied through his works, but he did not earn his righteousness as the result of his works (Romans 4:1-5). Good works are not the by product of faith, but rather being a doer of them is the way to have faith.