Faith alone

[mailmandan]

They are talking about two different types of works. However, you conclusion as to those that do mean that they believe "saved by works" is in error. IF they are talking about the same type of works you have put them into contradiction with each other.

If they were talking about two different types of works, then you would have James promoting salvation by works in James 2:24. I have heard numerous folks over the years say Paul and James are talking about two different types of works then afterwards conclude that James is teaching "justified by works" in James 2:24 = "saved by works," which is in contradiction to Romans 4:2-6. Abraham was before the law and obeying God by setting out to sacrifice Isaac in Genesis 22 was not an attempt of the flesh to seek justification. Paul clearly said, if Abraham was justified (accounted as righteous) by works something to boast about, but not before God. For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it (faith, not works) was accounted to him for righteousness.” God imputes righteousness apart from works.

The harmony of Romans 4:2-3 and James 2:24 is seen in the differing ways that Paul and James use the term "justified." Paul, when he uses the term, refers to the legal (judicial) act of God by which He accounts the sinner as righteous. James, however, is using the term to describe those who would show the genuineness of their faith by the works that they do -- Agree or disagree?

Jesus Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works. (Romans 3:24-28; 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9) Hence, faith (rightly understood in Jesus Christ) alone. It is through faith "in Jesus Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony* -- Agree or disagree?

Evidently it wasn't clear enough for James because he wrote:

Jas 2:20-24 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

I already thoroughly covered James 2:20-24 in post #111.

Faith alone

Hello Sheri, I noticed that you are a new member so I thought that I should say, welcome to CB.com :ntmetu Also, thank you for posting the passage from James that is so vtial to understand whenever the topic of sola fide is being discussed :thumbsupx1 God bless you!! --Papa Smurf p.s. - you...

www.christianityboard.com

If you can't see that James is not using the term "justified" in James 2:24 to mean "accounted as righteous" but is shown to be righteous and that James is discussing the evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18) and not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3) then you are left with "justified by works" = "saved by works" in contradiction to Romans 4:2-3.

And here comes your OSAS dogma: No fruit would imply they failed to abide in the vine:

James 2:14-24 has nothing to do with OSAS vs. NOSAS but has everything to do with genuine faith vs. an empty profession of faith/dead faith.

Jn 15:1-6 I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit. Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you. Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

I agree with AT Robertson - In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. *Judas did not abide because Judas was unclean. (John 13:10-11)

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

 

[shepherdsword]

I agree with AT Robertson - In me (εν εμο). Two kinds of connexion with Christ as the vine (the merely cosmic which bears no fruit, the spiritual and vital which bears fruit). The fruitless (not bearing fruit, μη φερον καρπον) the vine-dresser "takes away" (αιρε) or prunes away. Probably (Bernard) Jesus here refers to Judas. *Judas did not abide because Judas was unclean. (John 13:10-11)

John 15 - Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament - Bible Commentaries - StudyLight.org

John 15, Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament, Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament is a rich resource for understanding Scripture, delving into original language and cultural nuances.

www.studylight.org

These responses just keep getting longer and longer ad nauseum. I will focus on this point which I think is the crux of the biscuit.

I agree with RT as well. Jesus will keep bearing fruit through them as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.


Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works. Not the self righteous efforts Paul spoke of but rather the works produced by true faith that James spoke of. They are not and cannot be the same thing.

 

[mailmandan]

Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works.

You and I may not agree on everything but at least we agree here.

 

[amigo de christo]

These responses just keep getting longer and longer ad nauseum. I will focus on this point which I think is the crux of the biscuit.

I agree with RT as well. Jesus will keep bearing fruit through them as long as the branches keep in vital union with him.
View attachment 73889

Even RT believed that the branches should keep in union and not be presumptuous. So while we are not saved by our fruit if there is no fruit there is no salvation. Biblical faith will always produce works. Not the self righteous efforts Paul spoke of but rather the works produced by true faith that James spoke of. They are not and cannot be the same thing.

For indeed ye shall know them by their fruits .
HERE IS THE FRUIT OF GOD .
For the FRUIT of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , Righteous and TRUTH proving what is ACCEPTABLE to GOD .
The fruit of the wicked ..........................IS TO SIN .
Any man who embraces his sin or any others sin , justifying it
HAS NOT the SPIRIT of THE HOLY GOD . For by the spirit cometh the unctions to flee the evil and to do good .
NOT TO CALL EVIL GOOD AN D GOOD EVIL . that cometh of the flesh of man to justify his own evil love of sin .

 

[amigo de christo]

You and I may not agree on everything but at least we agree here.

And what is the very fruit of THE SPIRIT .
And what is the fruit of the wicked .
The FRUIT of the SPIRIT is in all goodness , righteousness and TRUTH , proving what is acceptable TO GOD ALL MIGHTY HIMSELF .
The fruit of the wicked ............IS to sin . and they will find a way and a means to JUSTIFY their sin .
Very rebellious is the heart of man and wicked from his youth up .
THERE BE ONLY ONE WAY TO BE SET FREE from the darkness
HIS NAME , JESUS and YE MUST BELEIVE IN HIM . otherwise they still trapped under the power and influence
of the dark one and death .
YE SHALL and YOU SURE CAN know them by their fruits .
NO MAN who is of GOD would omit JESUS THE CHRIST
and nO MAN who claims to BE OF CHRIST would try and turn him into a minstir of sin and unbeleif .
MANY are the nominals these days who still love their sin and thus have loved a lie .

 

[SirJamsalot]

When your heart says, “Oh how I love Thy law”, good works stop being a payment and start looking more like joy leaking out

 

[amigo de christo]

When your heart says, “Oh how I love Thy law”, good works stop being a payment and start looking more like joy leaking out

For the love that comes of GOD puts a love for the words of THE LORD upon our hearts .