Faith or sin

[stunnedbygrace]

If you know anything about the history of the Israelites after their coming out of Egypt, you would know that almost all of them perished in the wilderness BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF. So they were definitely NOT saved. Indeed at one point God would have destroyed all of them for their idolatry and disobedience had Moses not interceded for them.

They had great faith and stepped out as they were told to do and God saved them from Pharoah and his armies. They acted in faith and God saved their lives but drowned Pharoah.

God counts men righteous because of their faith.

But if their hearts then later become evil and unbelieving, God becomes angry with them.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Yes. A continuing faithfulness is required to finish the process that finishes with an entire salvation which is towards sanctification. So many people stop at a given point that they have decided upon. These say...this far and no farther. But God is the Director...we wait for Him to say "cut". Otherwise we wait patiently for the Lord.

And woe to the man who stops them from going further.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

They had great faith and stepped out as they were told to do and God saved them from Pharoah and his armies. They acted in faith and God saved their lives but drowned Pharoah.

God counts men righteous because of their faith.

But if their hearts then later become evil and unbelieving, God becomes angry with them.

Is this cause to panic? No. God is patient and very forgiving and merciful

 

[Episkopos]

If you know anything about the history of the Israelites after their coming out of Egypt, you would know that almost all of them perished in the wilderness BECAUSE OF UNBELIEF. So they were definitely NOT saved. Indeed at one point God would have destroyed all of them for their idolatry and disobedience had Moses not interceded for them.

And how many today enter into the powerful presence of Christ? How much faith is there today...apart from a religious dogmatism as you are displaying?

You are deciding what the criteria is...which you are not understanding. You think you are above such unbelief. But you are a naysayer as the Israelites were. No difference there. Don't underestimate the capabilities of they who failed the Lord. Pride goes before a fall. We are to bear a spiritual fruit.

But the faith of today is to enter into ... the perfection of Christ...which you have a disposition of unbelief towards. It is by grace through faith.
I am as a spy that is saying "the land is good. We can do it by grace. It is commanded therefore it can be done."

And what is your response to that? Faith, joy, let's go for it!? Quite the opposite.

You are blind to the challenge before you just as they were blind in their time. Same blindness. Same stubbornness. Same religiosity.

Are you not like the other 10 spies that didn't believe God ....who now has revealed through Christ the power to make us as He is?

 

[Enoch111]

Are you saying that the Israelites coming out of Egypt weren't saved? This is a common error.

No, it is NOT a common error, but Bible truth. Study your Bible.

HEBREWS 3
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

All the adult Israelites -- other than Joshua and Caleb -- would perish in the wilderness because of their unbelief. Only their little children would enter into the Promised Land. And without faith it is impossible to please God or be saved. Even Moses was prevented from going there.

DEUTERONOMY 1
34 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.
37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Is this cause to panic? No. God is patient and very forgiving and merciful

But neither can we say that He doesnt expect a return on His investment. A talent, a seed, He expects it to grow. He does everything needed to bring growth. So we must remain and grow in trust.

 

[Enoch111]

They had great faith and stepped out as they were told to do and God saved them from Pharoah and his armies.

Why don't you pay attention to Scripture, instead of making such erroneous remarks? See my quotations from the Bible.

 

[Enoch111]

You are blind to the challenge before you just as they were blind in their time. Same blindness. Same stubbornness. Same religiosity.

Well anyone who sits in judgment over another Christian is not only arrogant but disobedient. And you are sitting in judgment here.

 

[Episkopos]

All the adult Israelites -- other than Joshua and Caleb -- would perish in the wilderness because of their unbelief. Only their little children would enter into the Promised Land. And without faith it is impossible to please God or be saved. Even Moses was prevented from going there.

I know what is says...but you are forgetting that they were indeed saved. Saved out of Egypt. Saved from bondage.

Ex. 14:30 Thus the LORD saved Israel that day from the hand of the Egyptians, and Israel saw the Egyptians dead on the seashore. 31. Israel saw the great power that the LORD used against the Egyptians, so the people feared the LORD, and they believed in the LORD and in his servant Moses.

The gospel is about salvation from bondage. But the kingdom is much more than what we are being saved from.

We also need to be saved to something...

So in between, the believers are tested and sifted to see who will actually humble themselves and have faith in the impossible.

Because it is the Lord acting before us.

There remains bondage within each one of us that must be overcome by the gospel. Faith will see us through those personal hindrances to life and peace. A faith that breaks up the carnal walls we have been given or have built up to protect ourselves.

But I have never seen that kind of faith in your posts. You are against that kind of faith.

 

[Episkopos]

Well anyone who sits in judgment over another Christian is not only arrogant but disobedient. And you are sitting in judgment here.

You are doing what you say I am doing. I am being obedient to the Lord. I don't rely on a man-made indoctrination as you do.
I am correcting your faulty understanding in your attempt to teach...which is what you are trying to do yourself but without an actual understanding. So I am doing for real what you are pretending to do.

I think most people can see that you are in error.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

No, it is NOT a common error, but Bible truth. Study your Bible.

HEBREWS 3
16 For some, when they had heard, did provoke: howbeit not all that came out of Egypt by Moses.
17 But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness?
18 And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not?
19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

All the adult Israelites -- other than Joshua and Caleb -- would perish in the wilderness because of their unbelief. Only their little children would enter into the Promised Land. And without faith it is impossible to please God or be saved. Even Moses was prevented from going there.

DEUTERONOMY 1
34 And the LORD heard the voice of your words, and was wroth, and sware, saying,
35 Surely there shall not one of these men of this evil generation see that good land, which I sware to give unto your fathers,
36 Save Caleb the son of Jephunneh; he shall see it, and to him will I give the land that he hath trodden upon, and to his children, because he hath wholly followed the LORD.
37 Also the LORD was angry with me for your sakes, saying, Thou also shalt not go in thither.

Moses was not saved either?

 

[Not me]

Perfect!

Blessings as He would make it a living reality in all the hearts that would crave after such a deep relationship with Him.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. And if we don't have faith it means we aren't trusting him to keep his promises.

“If we don’t have faith it means we aren’t trusting Him to keep His promises”

I like that.

Blessings.

That faith (trust) is a first struggle of growth. My gosh, I didn't become firm and unwavering for so many YEARS! I was just in constant worry about literally everything! If my bank account was down to 40.00 and the next bill needed to be sent out for 300.00, I could fool myself that I had firm trust, UNTIL it was 3 days away that it needed to be mailed out and there was still only 40.00. That's when a great struggle of trust came. And I would do sneaky things, like ask my mom for money to cover it, but not see that as lack of trust. But it was lack of trust. And if I was in, I needed to be ALL in.

Being brought to the end of oneself is a work that can only be known by experience. Blessed are those that are willing pay the price to enter into His rest.

Blessings,

That is interesting.

I was talking with @Enoch111 a couple of days ago. We were discussing sin (in "THE CHURCH" thread)

I was saying that I do not 'always' see sin as a deliberate choice. Not of the heart, but often of the flesh.

He answered .. Quote :-
Enoch111 said: ↑
[ Well as a matter of fact, according to the Bible every sin is indeed a choice. Every person always has choices. And it all began with Adam and Eve, who failed to make the right choices when they could have EASILY done so.

But James 1 gives us the progression of sin.

13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:

14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. [A CHOICE] ] End of quote.

====
I am still betwixt and between.

Your posts shows the lack of faith is sin.
Now I am guessing we are all speaking about "lack of faith" as being after a person has heard the word from the Lord?

Because if faith comes by hearing, and we hear a word, but don't act on it...we sin, by our non choice of not acting on it?

I guess I am reminded of the children of Israel in the wilderness ...they heard, but were fearful and complaining...so their bones bleached in the wilderness and only Joshua and Caleb of their generation ,entered in. ( by faith being active)


I am still trying to get this straight and I am not there yet.

Blessings as God makes these truths real and more real to us. So that each and every day we might make forward progress towards Him.

Knowing that He does all things well, and will perfect that which concerns us.

But the truth is, you can do nothing apart from Me.

I think all is said in these few words. That this truth, we might learn, and grow more into each day.

Blessings,

@Not me Hey, where have you gone???

Lol, sorry;

I had to step away, life has it’s demands and regardless of what I might want, I do run out of hot sauce every once in awhile.

Blessings,

And much love in Christ to all that call on His name, Not me

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Why don't you pay attention to Scripture, instead of making such erroneous remarks? See my quotations from the Bible.

So they did not have faith in God to step out under the water as it stood up...?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I hoped Enoch11 would stay and talk some more. He probably had dinner or something called him away.

I'm not able to look up some verses right now that I need to put this sudden puzzle together that's in my head...

One of them is when Moses hit the rock twice. I have had suspicion that it was lack of faith that caused him to hit it a second time instead of to just do what he was told and then wait in trust...

But I know Moses is saved. He was present at the transfiguration. So...yes, a lack of faith is bad, but it doesn't just throw a man into he'll. He can turn back to God and begin in trust again...

Oh, have to go. I'm working out the puzzle knot...

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Okay, I got it...I think.

Whenever it appears to me that someone has left leave of their senses, it always is because they are protecting something (doctrine, a belief, etc.) that I can't see.

And when I say "has left leave of their senses" I don't mean they're an idiot or anything. But they start to really not make any logical sense because I can't see what it is they're protecting.

So WHY is it important for enoch11 to insist that those who walked out under the towering wall of water did not trust God, at that time?

 

[Episkopos]

Okay, I got it...I think.

Whenever it appears to me that someone has left leave of their senses, it always is because they are protecting something (doctrine, a belief, etc.) that I can't see.

And when I say "has left leave of their senses" I don't mean they're an idiot or anything. But they start to really not make any logical sense because I can't see what it is they're protecting.

So WHY is it important for enoch11 to insist that those who walked out under the towering wall of water did not trust God, at that time?

People hate when I mention indoctrination. They take it as an accusation....but is merely an observation. It's like saying that someone who has a dripping nose and a cough has a cold. So then it is a condition.

Is it a sin to be indoctrinated? I would say it is a bondage of sorts. It restrains people from moving into the light and life of God. It stops the unity in the body. It restricts the love of God that is meant to flow in the Body.

Do indoctrinated people love? Not so much. That's how you know them....by their lack of love and their over-emphasis on a doctrine that is both wrong and brings death....not life.

It's like taking a wrong exit on the highway of life. We get fooled by the signs...but those signs are counterfeit signs...a counterfeit idea of salvation...a counterfeit assurance of rightness.

But the truth can be quite painful. So it will be resisted. What brings life at first seems like death. Just as what brings death seems like life.

But there is always hope.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The only stab I could take at it was that if he has to insist that it took no trust in God to walk under and through a tower of water that would crush you if it fell, then he must be defending some thought that trust can't be lost and that men can never lose trust in God and put it back on other things, like what they see, etc.

This brings to mind a phrase I've never understood. Its when people say: oh but they didn't have a saving faith.

So you know by now that when I hear "faith" what I really hear is "trust." So it seems to me that they are saying: oh they trusted, they just didn't have a saving trust. Which to me means: oh they had trust, they just didn't continue and grow in trust but instead turned back.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The only stab I could take at it was that if he has to insist that it took no trust in God to walk under and through a tower of water that would crush you if it fell, then he must be defending some thought that trust can't be lost and that men can never lose trust in God and put it back on other things, like what they see, etc.

This brings to mind a phrase I've never understood. Its when people say: oh but they didn't have a saving faith.

So you know by now that when I hear "faith" what I really hear is "trust." So it seems to me that they are saying: oh they trusted, they just didn't have a saving trust. Which to me means: oh they had trust, they just didn't continue and grow in trust but instead turned back.

Except that's not what they mean when they say it. And if pressed, it turns out that saving trust means to believe you will live forever and to say you must believe also the rest of what Jesus said is sort of...optional.

And its really bizarre to me. To believe you will live forever because He said so, but not believe what He said about say...temporal provision. Which does it seem it would be harder for God to do - raise and reanimate a dead body Or make supplies stretch and not wear out?

I don't know, its just...He warned that once the teaching of men was swallowed it was going to be very hard to remove it. I see that's true, for sure.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Except that's not what they mean when they say it. And if pressed, it turns out that saving trust means to believe you will live forever and to say you must believe also the rest of what Jesus said is sort of...optional.

And its really bizarre to me. To believe you will live forever because He said so, but not believe what He said about say...temporal provision. Which does it seem it would be harder for God to do - raise and reanimate a dead body Or make supplies stretch and not wear out?

I don't know, its just...He warned that once the teaching of men was swallowed it was going to be very hard to remove it. I see that's true, for sure.

But then...this is sort of arrogant on my part. I struggled for years and years to have strong and unwavering trust, So I can understand the difficulty and the battle.

But if someone just has the attitude that to believe you will live forever is trust but to struggle to trust fully is works...they will never enter the battle...

So I guess its some arrogance on my part but...okay I need to leave these thoughts before my head hurts.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

But then...this is sort of arrogant on my part. I struggled for years and years to have strong and unwavering trust, So I can understand the difficulty and the battle.

But if someone just has the attitude that to believe you will live forever is trust but to struggle to trust fully is works...they will never enter the battle...

So I guess its some arrogance on my part but...okay I need to leave these thoughts before my head hurts.

But then...God doesn't lead a man straight to battle, because He said about Israel that He didn't want them to experience war right away because they might get frightened and turn back...