Faith or sin

[stunnedbygrace]

Was Peter a believer? Did he deny God three times?

Oh...this got lost because I didn't quote the correct post, as usual!

I was responding to GG, who said it was unbelievers who deny God.

 

[bbyrd009]

You were apparently born to be a skeptic my friend. That I would guess is for you a gift. What you could not stand for two years others have taken for different reasons, some likely bad and others quite good. For me the first non-Catholic church where I was home taught me a lot of things which I have written pages about in the past to explain them as I began to understand them.

However even while I was there in the first assembly [from 1976] and was reading the Bible for the first time in my life the pastor did a number of things which many would call unforgivable. One in particular started with a question from me to him. "Where do you get your authority as a pastor from?"

I was not questioning whether or not he had any authority, because I did not know at the time what authority he had although apparently he had some (or so I believed). I was interested in learning more about it and had asked him privately to explain what the basis for his authority was. I had only been in his congregation for a few weeks at the time. I expected and hoped to receive an answer from scripture. Instead, he, apparently not understanding what it was I wanted, didn't answer me at all and left the room. It was just about time for service to start so I went and rejoined my wife sitting in a pew in the sanctuary.

Shortly after the start of the service the pastor went to the podium and speaking before the entire congregation rebuked me saying that I had questioned his authority. I was completely stunned as was my wife for I had already explained to her what had occurred just few minutes earlier.

Still, I would have thought that the man had simply not understood me. That was not the case as I discovered. He didn't answer questions about doctrine period. He simply expected everyone to listen to him and to obey him and accept anything that he taught without question. I have never been a person easily angered and I did not get angry then, but I cannot say the same for my wife LOL.

I guess most people would have left immediately but we stayed for a several years. Why? My wife's anger was not enough to move me and I wanted to do the right thing. I was sure that I did not know what the right thing was. That was only the very first recalled strike against him [the pastor] and what followed was likely worse but we endured because it was something God wanted us to go through to understand what would happen later in our lives and particularly in our walk with God. Would Job have gone for it if God had told him beforehand what he was going to have to endure according to the Book of Job?

hmm, ok. Well staying somewhere you'd rather not be bc you feel led i get, but i just wasn't quite getting that flavor from the post, maybe i misunderstood there. As to the pastor thing--i bet he considers himself a literalist, too, huh? Isn't that a rip when a literalist does not take you literally? Lol. So my take there is you asked an innocent question to a deaf guy, and you got a really clear answer in that sermon? Even though i guess he never did answer your Q, huh? But he literally got up and Stood There, right, prolly even got some likes?

Ha imagine if you had told the guy in the same spirit that you hoped he got what he deserved! HA!

So fwiw a big thing i am hearing here is that you can come from completely pure motives and still be offending the heck out of ppl, huh. Just an observation. Anyway a fairly crucial diff in your scenario there and at Job imo is that Job was in sin--although i know we aren't instructed about that in Job, his confessions are overlooked, etc...so i have a bit diff opinion of ol' Righteous Job maybe--and you were not, according to your explanation? So maybe Jonah, although sounds like you were meant to stay there, prolly the best witness possible for you there was to stay and demonstrate your surely complete unruffledness over the matter to everyone, even as you were being unjustly accused?

I'd be curious to hear how the witnesses came down there, what change in the um water did you see based on the episode, etc, if you were even aware or cared to notice then?

 

[amadeus]

hmm, ok. Well staying somewhere you'd rather not be bc you feel led i get, but i just wasn't quite getting that flavor from the post, maybe i misunderstood there. As to the pastor thing--i bet he considers himself a literalist, too, huh? Isn't that a rip when a literalist does not take you literally? Lol. So my take there is you asked an innocent question to a deaf guy, and you got a really clear answer in that sermon? Even though i guess he never did answer your Q, huh? But he literally got up and Stood There, right, prolly even got some likes?

I was led to God but the church was where a good brother took me. He had never even visited the place before but it was similar to his denomination in basic beliefs. That brother was a man of God, but not a preacher. He was a black man and when he visited us periodically [he lived about 60 miles away] the pastor was hungry for the man and his family to be the token black family in his all white assembly. [That never happened although eventually a single black sister started attended to satisfy his agenda.]

I wasn't aware enough at the time to realize how far off base the pastor was. My wife usually had to interpret things for me and she often did as she wanted to move away from there very soon. But she knew as little about the Bible as I did at the time.

Ha imagine if you had told the guy in the same spirit that you hoped he got what he deserved! HA!

I was not only naive but very shy. The shyness had moved way back in me over the years but I am still naive about a lot of things, especially the specifics of secular happenings where I haven't been alerted to a spiritually connection. I would not open my mouth in those days, but wife would have if I had not been there to subdue her. The pastor always liked me but I believe that he really hated my wife although he never openly said that. She always saw right through him and he knew it.

The story of that pastor and his church was almost hard for us to believe. The whole congregation lived in the Downey CA in the vicinity of Los Angeles. When he decided to move from Downy to El Sobrante [north of Oakland on the east side of San Francisco Bay a 400 mile move] , he asked, pressured, instructed or something... his congregation to sell out everything and move with him. Most of them did. That is really hard for me to understand but it did happen.

So fwiw a big thing i am hearing here is that you can come from completely pure motives and still be offending the heck out of ppl, huh. Just an observation. Anyway a fairly crucial diff in your scenario there and at Job imo is that Job was in sin--although i know we aren't instructed about that in Job, his confessions are overlooked, etc...so i have a bit diff opinion of ol' Righteous Job maybe--and you were not, according to your explanation? So maybe Jonah, although sounds like you were meant to stay there, prolly the best witness possible for you there was to stay and demonstrate your surely complete unruffledness over the matter to everyone, even as you were being unjustly accused?

I have certainly seen the errors in Job you mention but he did need to go through some things and did it better than many would have done it. He learned a lot from his experiences. Did he learn enough? Insufficient data.

My wife and I had just about come to the point of divorce when we sought the help of the black brother and his family. Through them God saved our marriage and put us on the road toward Him.

I'd be curious to hear how the witnesses came down there, what change in the um water did you see based on the episode, etc, if you were even aware or cared to notice then?

For reasons still hard for me to understand that pastor's congregation was extremely faithful to him. He pressured them into babysitting our two toddlers when my wife was sick. None of them would have volunteered without his pressure on them. Some of them hated my wife and few of them liked me much because of the things he made them do. They hated her because she saw him as a phony and seldom bit her tongue much. he actually took me aside and said he would support me in getting custody of my children if I would divorce her and stay with in his church. He did not know me at all to even ask such a thing. That was not the end, but it was close to it.

In spite of all that and many other things I began reading the Bible there and moved toward God although at a much slower pace in fact than seemed to me to be the case at the time.

 

[aspen]

Romans 14:23 (NASB)
But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.

“whatever is not from faith is sin”

Faith in our lives is called to be the thing that distinguishes us from all else.

Knowledge of scripture is not faith. Faith is faith, and knowledge is knowledge. Faith may proceed from knowledge, and knowledge proceed from experience, but they are all to the growing of that which is the end game; our faith.

It is our faith in God that is to be the strength of our lives. The very heart or center, the dividing line between that which is sin, and that which isn’t. Faith or sin. The two categories of all things. Faith or sin.

Whatever is not one is the other.

Having faith in God;

In, by, from, and for all things. For God is God, and God is good, and we are not. If it is not God, it is not good. If it is not good, it is sin. Sin we can produce on our own, good we can not. So faith takes the place of the good we can not produce on our own. Whatever is not from faith is sin. Which is as much as saying if it’s from us or self, it’s sin. A looking away from ourselves to the source of all good is what is called for. For the just shall live by faith, this isn’t a one time faith and now were back to the limitations of that which we can do.

The just shall live by looking off to another all the days of their lives. Through that which they understand or that which they don’t. This faith we are called to is to be the ever present center or door that opens up the working of God in our lives. For God has simplified it down to the two, faith or sin. Whatever is not one is the other. The joy and peace and security there is in believing and having faith in God. Having faith in this one Who is good. Having faith that the good and righteous and loving thing exists and it is a embodied in a Person and this Person has a name and this Person’s heart is toward us. So to the getting to know this Person personally is that which causes our faith to grow. For when we know this One who is good, and we see that all else is not good, the good and honest heart longs to be joined with this one Who is good. For we have all been called to the good, let us answer the call with good and honest and open hearts knowing that if it’s not, faith, it’s sin.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Faith is love in action

 

[farouk]

SBG: while you and Episkopos were talking, I was in the other room with my alphabet blocks building a few sentences.

(Living) Faith comes(is given--by hearing--and hearing by--The Word of God.
When Peter heard "Come", he responded in awe-struck love for and obedience to The Faith that caused(animated him to go
His Divine Faith, to me, is like a vehicle that carries us to(into Him...but how to stay there and not sink is huge.

Sometimes it can be a really good exercise to reduce wording to Biblical simplicity.

 

[Not me]

Faith is love in action

Hello,

That our trust in God, and desire towards Him, would grow and abound in all things.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[farouk]

Hello,

That our trust in God, and desire towards Him, would grow and abound in all things.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

Similar to Philippians 1.9-11:

"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

 

[Not me]

Similar to Philippians 1.9-11:

"And this I pray, that your love may abound yet more and more in knowledge and in all judgment;

10 That ye may approve things that are excellent; that ye may be sincere and without offence till the day of Christ.

11 Being filled with the fruits of righteousness, which are by Jesus Christ, unto the glory and praise of God."

Such a prayer! From your lips to God’s ear Farouk.

Blessings,

Much love in Christ, Not me

 

[bbyrd009]

2 Corinthians 10:12 Lexicon: For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.

When he decided to move from Downy to El Sobrante [north of Oakland on the east side of San Francisco Bay a 400 mile move] , he asked, pressured, instructed or something... his congregation to sell out everything and move with him. Most of them did. That is really hard for me to understand but it did happen.

Wow. Heard similar stories, same mo on the cult preacher too sounds like, but i don't get it...well, i do, but i don't. Never been to Downy but El Sobrante, yikes. Be interesting to hear the rest of that story i bet

Did he learn enough?

Ah well, he did learn to confess, he confesses twice, but no one can tell you what he confessed to i guess, huh. Dang innersting confessions too, you ask me. There's a key in there even

 

[amadeus]

2 Corinthians 10:12 Lexicon: For we are not bold to class or compare ourselves with some of those who commend themselves; but when they measure themselves by themselves and compare themselves with themselves, they are without understanding.
Wow. Heard similar stories, same mo on the cult preacher too sounds like, but i don't get it...well, i do, but i don't. Never been to Downy but El Sobrante, yikes. Be interesting to hear the rest of that story i bet

I don't know the final end as our last contact with anyone from there was many years ago. At that time the sister who spoke with her was still telling my wife that we would be back because it was where we belonged. Well, neither myself nor my wife ever had any inclination to return and we have not. I know that they lost their token black sister. She got a job working for Jerry Lewis the comedian/movie star and left El Sobrante for good. But she was a good sister who made the best sweet potato pies. [I don't call her 'good' because of those pies however. I hope she was able to influence the comedian in the things of God.]

Ah well, he did learn to confess, he confesses twice, but no one can tell you what he confessed to i guess, huh. Dang innersting confessions too, you ask me. There's a key in there even

Yes, I have seen a lot in Job myself. It seems that each time I have read the book something new has popped up... but there is more.

 

[bbyrd009]

Yes, I have seen a lot in Job myself. It seems that each time I have read the book something new has popped up... but there is more.

What sin did Job confess to, iyo?

 

[amadeus]

What sin did Job confess to, iyo?

Or even perhaps which ones did he need to confess?

Once he effectively proclaimed his own righteousness in supporting his own ways rather God's Way:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." Job 13:15

At the end of the book he hears from God and recognizing his own worthlessness by his words:

"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee." Job
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:5-6

In another place he has decided he will have a little talk with God apparently to set God straight about the treatment he has received:

"Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God." Job 13:3

Again later in the book, he recognizes that he really has nothing at all worthwhile to say:

"Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further." Job 40:4-5

 

[bbyrd009]

Or even perhaps which ones did he need to confess?

Once he effectively proclaimed his own righteousness in supporting his own ways rather God's Way:

"Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him." Job 13:15

At the end of the book he hears from God and recognizing his own worthlessness by his words:

"I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee." Job
Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes." Job 42:5-6

In another place he has decided he will have a little talk with God apparently to set God straight about the treatment he has received:

"Surely I would speak to the Almighty, and I desire to reason with God." Job 13:3

Again later in the book, he recognizes that he really has nothing at all worthwhile to say:

"Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.
Once have I spoken; but I will not answer: yea, twice; but I will proceed no further." Job 40:4-5

Yet God seems to completely contradict Job like two sentences later, right?
all i got is theories lol

 

[amadeus]

Yet God seems to completely contradict Job like two sentences later, right?
all i got is theories lol

"Gird up thy loins now like a man: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me." Job 40:7
God wanted not only sincere admission that he was in error but more precisely to recognize where he was in error and why. To speak it right we need to guided by God. Job like most all of us today thought he was right, so right...that even God would be unable to show his arguments to be error. Just saying, "I shut my mouth", was not good enough. When is it time to remain silent and when is it time to speak? Jesus always knew. We only know when we always doing as Jesus did by hearing His Voice and following carefully as we are instructed. Who among us is doing that? Not me! We need help to do that and who is qualified to be such a flawless helper?