Faith with works is believing with obedience

[Ghada]

Paul talks about two types of laws, works, and deaths. Most people get confuse or taught that both laws are the same, or do not understand how they use to work together. When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws (Commandments) of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place.

Good teaching. I misunderstood your take on Peter warning about Paul.

He was warning to rightly divide between Paul's rejection of keeping the law of Moses, vs His exhortation to keep the law of Christ instead.

 

[Ghada]

Once again, you missed John's point. He makes reference to "when we see him", which places our perfection at the Second Coming of Christ.

When seeing him, only those doing righteousness as He is righteous, shall not be ashamed at His appearing. Those doing unrighteousness will be appointed with the hypocrites.

That includes those preaching a gospel of doing unrighteousness at His appearing, and only then repenting to do His righteousness.

A day too late to finally become ashamed of sinning.

This is in agreement with Paul's statement that the sting of sin and death will be conquered at the Seventh Trumpet.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The resurrection is about the body only. The death of mortal flesh and blood.

The spiritual death of the soul is by sinning only.

Only those without the death of sinning unto the grave, are resurrected from the grave unto life.

There is no promise to the sinful at death here, but the gospel warning to them that are spiritual dead at the grave.

But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.

As In Romans 7, the victory from double heartedness and sinning, is through Jesus Christ to now do all things that please the Father unto the grave. I don't thank God for being delivering from His righteousness judgement while sinning, as you do, but for delivering me from sinning, and no more to be judged with the unrighteous.

The Christian gospel of sinning to the grave, is not the Bible gospel of being delivered from sinning unto the grave. The resurrection of the dead is divided between those sinning and ashamed at His appearing, and those doing His righteousness and glad at His appearing.

As I demonstrated, your view of perfection is not based on the New Testament.

The NT gospel of perfection to endure temptation without sinning, is not the self-justifying view of perfection in

No. The one does not necessarily follow from the other. Many Christian men, including Paul the Apostle, have lust in their hearts but do not act on that lust; they have, as Paul recommended, given their members in service of righteousness instead. Refer to Romans 6 and 7.

And so, now you openly preach lusting for Christians.

You reject the reformation of Jesus Christ to cleanse within the platter first, that the outer life may also be clean from a pure heart.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren,

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Once again you openly p[reach lusting for Christians, against the newborn purifying conversion of Jesus Christ.

Your gospel stops at Romans 7, while Paul went on to Romans 8 by deliverance of Jesus Christ from your double hearted doctrine. There is now no condemnation for them clean escaped from the lust of the world, and now not walking after the flesh. At all.

You justify lusting for Christians, because you are not delivered from it yourself, nor do you fight against it daily. That is why you reject the judgment of Jesus, that lusting is a committed act, even if not done outwardly.

It's also why God has not made you newborn to have all things now of Him, like Jesus, and nothing of the devil, like Jesus.

You just don't believe in it now today, but only preach it after the grave.

Your blindness to our spiritual works being the source of our physical deeds, is the natural man's gospel of separating our inner faith from our outward works.

 

[Ghada]

Posting an alleged teaching from the Bible by making spurious arguments based on redefinitions of words

Yes God does define words differently from natural man. Which includes the natural doctrine of Christians, that define works of man as being outward only.

That is clung to, because it is essential towards making a temporal timeline between faith and any works we do, so as to preach their gospel of being justified by faith only, without works.

Which of course opposes James 2.

I respectfully disagree. You do more than repeat the words.

True. I also give the normal sense of the words repeated.

So they read in the book in the law of God distinctly, and gave the sense, and caused them to understand the reading.

And the words I use to give the sense, are repeated words from the Bible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

When seeing him, only those doing righteousness as He is righteous, shall not be ashamed at His appearing. Those doing unrighteousness will be appointed with the hypocrites.

Take another look at the passage.

1 John 3:1-3

3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.​

John and his readers are "children of God." But, he says, "it as not appeared as yet what we will be." The New Testament often draws a comparison between "now" and "then." Now, John says, we are not what we shall be. Then we will be like him. In the meantime, we purify ourselves.

Now: what we all be has not yet appeared.
Then: we will be like him
In the meantime: we purify ourselves.

O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory? The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

The resurrection is about the body only. The death of mortal flesh and blood.

Paul doesn't say that the resurrection concerns the body alone. He argues that the Resurrection involves a transformation from the earthly to the heavenly. He simplifies it for us, "Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly." Here Paul also compares "now" with "then."

Now: we bear the image of the earthly
Then: we will bear the image of the heavenly.

As In Romans 7, the victory from double heartedness and sinning, is through Jesus Christ to now do all things that please the Father unto the grave.

The idea of double-heartedness is not found in Romans 7. In Romans 7, Paul argues that he still finds sin in his members. He realizes that he covets all the time. That is, he continually breaks the 10th commandment. And as he suggests, he will never be free of that sin until Jesus Christ frees him from his body of death. Christian Resurrection is more than being made alive; Christian Resurrection is the glorification of the body. And what makes God glorious if not his moral perfection?

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Now: Citizenship in heaven
Then: Transform the body of our humble estate into conformity with the body of his glory.

under bondage to sin, and looks forward to being

I don't thank God for being delivering from His righteousness judgement while sinning, as you do, but for delivering me from sinning, and no more to be judged with the unrighteous.

Let's return to John's first epistle and see if what you say bears out.

1 John 1:5-10

This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.​

According to John, the distinguishing factor of a child of God is their tendency to walk in the light. One characteristic of those who walk in the light is their willingness to acknowledge their sins. Deceiving ourselves by claiming to be without sin is a trait of those who walk in darkness. However, if we confess our sins, we will be forgiven. Refusing to admit our sins and claiming to be sinless will prevent us from receiving forgiveness.

 

[bro.tan]

Good teaching. I misunderstood your take on Peter warning about Paul.

He was warning to rightly divide between Paul's rejection of keeping the law of Moses, vs His exhortation to keep the law of Christ instead.

Thank you for understanding, but let me show you an example of how these two laws work together back in the days of Moses. We will see there were two laws given to Moses, they were the commandments and the sacrificial law. Watch how they worked together.


And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying, Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them: (Leviticus 4:1-2) The law in the scriptures above is the commandments.


Notice something else very important in these two scriptures. It states, "if a soul shall sin through ignorance." Notice that the scripture did not says on purpose. Why? There is no sacrifice for a sin that is committed willfully. Let's find out what was to be done if a person committed a sin against the Lord unintentionally. Let's skip down to the 27th verse and take a look at the second law (which is the sacrificial law).


And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty; Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned. And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering. And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar. (Leviticus 4:27-30)


When the common people sinned through ignorance and it came to their knowledge, what did they have to do? They brought an offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for their sin which they had committed, then the priest would offer the animal to the Lord. Think about this for a moment. If an animal was killed for a person that committed sin, what will happen to us today if we a trespass against the Lord? When Jesus died on the cross that was the end of the first covenant, which consisted of the blood of animals and the keeping of God’s commandments. And his death also brought in the second covenant, which consist of the blood of Jesus and the keeping of God’s commandments.

 

[Ghada]

Take another look at the passage.

1 John 3:1-3

3 See how great a love the Father has bestowed on us, that we would be called children of God; and such we are. For this reason the world does not know us, because it did not know Him. 2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.​

John and his readers are "children of God." But, he says, "it as not appeared as yet what we will be."

What that will be is their bodily resurrection in the likeness of Jesus' bodily resurrection. One manifestation of His resurrected body with glory, is later shown to John at Patmos.

The gospel hope of finally repenting and ceasing of sin, and doing righteousness at all times, only after the grave, is not the hope of the Bible gospel and promise of bodily resurrection unto life.

The New Testament often draws a comparison between "now" and "then." Now, John says, we are not what we shall be. Then we will be like him. In the meantime, we purify ourselves.

Now we are called and commanded to be like Him in purity of spirit and life. At His appearing, only those repenting now to do so, will be made forever like unto His bodily resurrection.

Those who don't believe in, and even preach against being like Him now, and walking as He is now, have no such hope at the grave.

Just because we make a doctrine for ourselves, to cover ourselves while not being like Jesus, doesn't mean our doctrine will resurrected us from the dead unto life.

Only God can has power to resurrect the body, and that is only when He judges our works, not our doctrine.

Paul doesn't say that the resurrection concerns the body alone. He argues that the Resurrection involves a transformation from the earthly to the heavenly. He simplifies it for us, "Just as we have borne the image of the earthy, we will also bear the image of the heavenly."

You quote the verse proving it is the body of man that is the image of the earthly. Not the soul of man that is created in the image of God.

Your carnal mindedness mistakes the soul as being the body made of natural flesh and blood.

Now: we bear the image of the earthly
Then: we will bear the image of the heavenly.

Correct. We bear in our bodies the image of the earthly now.

Resurrection of the body bears the image of the heavenly then. If we are obeying Christ with our spirit and body at the end.

Our soul and spirit now bear the image of the heavenly and dear Son of God, if we repent and do His will.

The soul of the sinner with the devil, bears now the image of the devil and his children on earth. If unto death, then that soul will not bear the image of the heavenly like Christ, in the resurrection of their bodies unto shame and contempt.

 

[Ghada]

The idea of double-heartedness is not found in Romans 7.

For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Your definition of double mindedness is not the same as that of the Bible.

In Romans 7, Paul argues that he still finds sin in his members.

Christ does not make sinful bodies in the womb, nor sinful souls in life.

Blaming your continued sinning on your body is not pleasing to God, because it is not godly sorrow unto repentance and salvation.

And as he suggests, he will never be free of that sin until Jesus Christ frees him from his body of death.

Which is the life he was experiencing while double hearted in the faith of Christ.

Once repenting of it and being delivered from lust and walking after the flesh, we move on to the perfection of Romans 8, to walk only after the Spirit, and not at all after the flesh.

That is when there is now no condemnation for any man walking after the Spirit and not after the flesh.

Christian Resurrection is more than being made alive; Christian Resurrection is the glorification of the body. And what makes God glorious if not his moral perfection?

True, and if we are not now living in Christ's moral virtue and perfection of overcoming all temptation, then we will not be resurrected with glorified bodies in the likeness of Christ's own resurrection.

Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Philippians 3:20-21
For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

Now: Citizenship in heaven
Then: Transform the body of our humble estate into conformity with the body of his glory.

No one is in Christ, nor has heavenly citizenship with Him, that are are still in sin, with sin in them. In Christ there is no sin. (1 John 3) And so in Christ there is no one with sin in them and so in Him.

God's humble state is not claiming what sinners you are. The only humble state with God, is to repent of sinning, submit to His will and resist the devil till he flees.

But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded.

This faux humility of some Christians, always talking about what sinful filthy rags they still have in life, is condemned by Paul as a purposed willful humility and show of humbleness, that results only in more ungodliness, and not unto repentance.

That's not the humble godly sorrow unto repentance, by which our soul and life is saved unto resurrection of the body unto life.

At the resurrection of the dead, only the body is changed from earthly to heavenly. Not the soul, heart and life. That is either perfectly changed now by repentance and being pure newborn of God, or will never be changed by any repentance after the grave.

Remember the thread title and what you are preaching against: Believing with obeying God is the faith of Jesus. Not believing while disobeying God.

 

[Ghada]

1 John 1:5-10
This is the message we have heard from Him and announce to you, that God is Light, and in Him there is no darkness at all. If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth; but if we walk in the Light as He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin. If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous, so that He will forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar and His word is not in us.

1 John 1 is not speaking of walking with Jesus wholly in the light, and not walking in darkness of flesh, and then turns around and demands we all claim to have sin and darkness in us.

You're preaching is what is being rebuked, but still walking in darkness, and yet claiming to have no sin in your soul to be judged and condemned by God.

John was rebuking your gospel long ago, by letting the sinful Christians of his day know, that they are neither walking and having fellowship with Jesus in His light, and they do still have lust of heart and a sinful soul judged and condemned by God the Father.

This is your doctrine condemned by 1 John 1:6 & 8: You still walk in sin and darkness, but you claim to have no sin in you to be judged and condemned by God.

It's your religious conversion of now claiming cleanness with your soul, while still living corruptly.

Those acknowledging rightly they do still have sin, cannot be in the Christ of the Bible, in Whom is no sin.

According to John, the distinguishing factor of a child of God is their tendency to walk in the light.

Do you Christians ever think about just teaching the Bible as quoted. The Bible says we walk in His light, without walking in darkness.

And you turn around and teach having only a 'tendency' to do so. This is of course on purpose, in order to try and quote the Bible, and then preach something 'close' to it, but certainly not it.

Your gospel of tending to do good more and tending to do unrighteousness less, is the Christian conversion of sinners before, during, and after their religious reboot. Still the same lusting sinners as before, but now seeking to just sin less than before in your 2nd time around.

One characteristic of those who walk in the light is their willingness to acknowledge their sins

Rubbish. Just admitting your a sinner without repenting of sinning, is not the godly sorrow repentance and confession unto salvation.

The way of Christ to come to His light is by repenting first. The unrepented are them refusing to come to the light, lest their unrighteous deeds be reproved. After all, they haven't repented of sinning.

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The character of Christ and His brethren is to repent of walking in darkness, and to walk in the light, even as He is in the light. To repent of sinning and to do righteousness, even as He is righteous.

The characteristic of unrepented sinners is to continue sinning and claiming their sin without repenting of it.

Deceiving ourselves by claiming to be without sin is a trait of those who walk in darkness.

True. It's the unrepentant sinners, that preach Christian religion of their souls no more being condemned for the sinful life they still live.

You are deceiving yourself by a gospel of your own faith alone, that your soul has no sin to be judged and condemned with the world, while still sinning as the world.

However, if we confess our sins, we will be forgiven.

True. The Bible teaches if we sin, you teach when you sin.

Refusing to admit our sins

If we sin, though for you it's when you sin.

and claiming to be sinless will prevent us from receiving forgiveness.

True. While still sinning. There are Christians decieved into thinking their outward sinning does not condemn their soul as dead and separated from God. And so, there is no godly sorrow to repent of their continued sinning. The fear of the Lord is removed from their conscience. They even preach all their sinning is already forgiven to day and tomorrow,

They not only preach of when they say, but of already being forgiven for it.

The fool hath said in his heart, There is no judgement of God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

There is no fear of God before their eyes.

 

[CadyandZoe]

What that will be is their bodily resurrection in the likeness of Jesus' bodily resurrection. One manifestation of His resurrected body with glory, is later shown to John at Patmos.

I see nothing in the passage about bodily resurrection. Your spirit/body dualism comes from Greek Philosophy not the Bible.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Your definition of double mindedness is not the same as that of the Bible.

I didn't say anything about double-mindedness, did I? I don't think I did.

Blaming your continued sinning on your body is not pleasing to God, because it is not godly sorrow unto repentance and salvation.

I don't think I blamed my body for sin did I? No.

No one is in Christ, nor has heavenly citizenship with Him, that are are still in sin, with sin in them. In Christ there is no sin. (1 John 3) And so in Christ there is no one with sin in them and so in Him.

You are still in sin.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1 John 1 is not speaking of walking with Jesus wholly in the light, and not walking in darkness of flesh, and then turns around and demands we all claim to have sin and darkness in us.

You say you have no sin. According to John, you are walking in darkness.

Do you Christians ever think about just teaching the Bible as quoted.

Sure. I do it all the time.

The characteristic of unrepented sinners is to continue sinning and claiming their sin without repenting of it.

So what?