Faith with works is believing with obedience

[JunChosen]

Go ahead... Ignore what was actually said.

What you meant is what YOU actually said.

Be cool... God loves you.

I am cool! I am God's child and therefore loved by Him.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

You do not understand the differences between what "works" means, and what one work Jesus said we need to do means.

The Pharisees and other religions assigned people to a long list of things to do in order to try to please God. That system was called "works."

Jesus said God gives us only ONE work to do. To "believe."

Believing equals FAITH.

Get it now?

I beg to differ!

Firstly, the words believe and faith are synonymous.

Secondly, Jesus gave us many commands to do not only "one."

For example, Jesus said. "love God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind."

And the second is like it, "love your neighbor as yourself," Matt. 22:37-39

"Go therefore and teach all nations...." Matthew 28:19-20.

To God Be The Glory

 

[JunChosen]

Romans 4 is good at explaining how salvation is of faith, that it might be according to grace and not of works.

What I get from good works is rewards, not salvation

Abraham Justified by Faith​

1 What then shall we say that Abraham our father[a] has found according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the Scripture say? “Abraham believed God, and it was [b]accounted to him for righteousness.” 4 Now to him who works, the wages are not counted [c]as grace but as debt.

David Celebrates the Same Truth​

5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

7 “Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven,
And whose sins are covered;
8 Blessed is the man to whom the Lord shall not impute sin.”

Abraham Justified Before Circumcision​

9 Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also, 12 and the father of circumcision to those who not only are of the circumcision, but who also walk in the steps of the faith which our father Abraham had while still uncircumcised.

The Promise Granted Through Faith​

13 For the promise that he would be the heir of the world was not to Abraham or to his seed through the law, but through the righteousness of faith. 14 For if those who are of the law are heirs, faith is made void and the promise made of no effect, 15 because the law brings about wrath; for where there is no law there is no transgression.

16 Therefore it is of faith that it might be according to grace, so that the promise might be [d]sure to all the seed, not only to those who are of the law, but also to those who are of the faith of Abraham, who is the father of us all 17 (as it is written, “I have made you a father of many nations”) in the presence of Him whom he believed—God, who gives life to the dead and calls those things which do not exist as though they did; 18 who, contrary to hope, in hope believed, so that he became the father of many nations, according to what was spoken, “So shall your descendants be.” 19 And not being weak in faith, he did not consider his own body, already dead (since he was about a hundred years old), and the deadness of Sarah’s womb. 20 He did not waver at the promise of God through unbelief, but was strengthened in faith, giving glory to God, 21 and being fully convinced that what He had promised He was also able to perform. 22 And therefore “it was accounted to him for righteousness.”

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but also for us. It shall be imputed to us who believe in Him who raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead, 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was raised because of our justification.

Good insight.

 

[Ghada]

Yes... there is confusion over the issue of works.

The confusion about works in the Bible, is due to the difference between the natural carnal minded man, and the spiritual man of faith in the Bible.

With the world, the natural man defines works only as outward deeds. The Bible teaches our inward works of thoughts, intents, and imaginations of the heart and spirit.

These are the works that carnal minded Christians do not discern, when trying to teach about faith and works. They can separate all works from their faith at any time, so long as they are not doing anything outwardly.

That's why they do not comprehend James 2 teaching there is no such thing as faith without works. They are only thinking of outward deeds. But the Bible speaks of our inward deeds also.

Works is a system of prescribed deeds.... Believing is only 'one work.' Believing is not "works."

The Bible does not agree.

He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

God judges all our works, including those of the heart first, whether lusting, evil surmising, vain imaginations, and idolatry.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

These works include the heart where Jesus is tempted in all points, yet resists the devil within for him to flee. This is the works of spiritual warfare in the spirit and mind, that we must also do.

 

[Ghada]

Works is a system of prescribed deeds.... Believing is only 'one work.' Believing is not "works."

The one work of God is to sow faith in our hearts by hearing the gospel. This is the free gift of faith by hearing only. That is not the beleiving work we do that saves us.

The believing works we do by which God saves and justifies us, begin in the heart and manifest in the flesh.

"Works" was understood when the Bible was written to mean something specific to their religious culture.

That was the outward weakness of the law of Moses on stone; however, God still spoke of the inward purifying works of our heart, that we must do by circumcising the foreskin of our heart and not just the flesh.

The rabbis and Pharisees would prescribe their lists of works to do to be saved for their followers to do.
That is why Jews kept asking Jesus what works they must do to inherit eternal life.

Jesus said?

God prescribes only one work -"to believe."

Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.”​

grace and peace ..............

Which leads to all the works of faith He commands to do. And that begins within the heart and spirit of a man.

What made Jesus most distinguished from other leaders, was He commands His disciples to cleanse within the platter first. This is commandment to do works of the spirit first by faith. It is the inward practical works to keep the first great commandment of loving God with all the heart. That is why He calls them the necessary first works of beleiving and loving Him. (Rev 2)

The work of God to sow His faith in our heart by hearing alone, is God's work. That is not our work of believing. Our works of believing inwardly and outwardly save and justify us with God by Jesus Christ.

 

[GeneZ]

The confusion about works in the Bible, is due to the difference between the natural carnal minded man, and the spiritual man of faith in the Bible.

With the world, the natural man defines works only as outward deeds. The Bible teaches our inward works of thoughts, intents, and imaginations of the heart and spirit.

These are the works that carnal minded Christians do not discern, when trying to teach about faith and works. They can separate all works from their faith at any time, so long as they are not doing anything outwardly.

That's why they do not comprehend James 2 teaching there is no such thing as faith without works. They are only thinking of outward deeds. But the Bible speaks of our inward deeds also.






The Bible does not agree.

He fashioneth their hearts alike; he considereth all their works.

God judges all our works, including those of the heart first, whether lusting, evil surmising, vain imaginations, and idolatry.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

These works include the heart where Jesus is tempted in all points, yet resists the devil within for him to flee. This is the works of spiritual warfare in the spirit and mind, that we must also do.

Throwing out passages without understanding, but ones that contain 'keywords,' does not prove your point.

 

[Ghada]

God had Peter to clearly warn us about some of Paul’s writing. (2Peter:3:15-16) (v.15)

Your sentence structure needs a little tweaking. You mean Peter warns anyone about messing with Paul's words to their own destruction. Just like any other words of God in the Bible.

There are some Christians that don't believe all the words of God, and instead think they're just the writings of men. In this way they can act like Paul got it wrong somewhere, or Peter elsewhere, etc... It was the same case back then, so that God in 2 Peter had to let all of us know that He was speaking through Paul as well in all his writings.

I believe this is the confusion, Because Paul talks about two types of deaths. Paul talks about two types of works. Paul talks about two different laws that use to work together.

From the beginning God talks about the physical things that man already sees, and also reveals the spiritual things man became blinded too. He speaks of the Spirit in Gen 1:2, and of man being made in His image in 1:

It's only the unbelieving natural man that remains blind to the spiritual things, that are more important and eternal than the natural. Sometimes we Christians make the same error by reading the Bible with natural eyes only. When reading the Bible we can forget we are reading the only Book in the world of perfect spiritual understanding.

 

[bro.tan]

Your sentence structure needs a little tweaking. You mean Peter warns anyone about messing with Paul's words to their own destruction. Just like any other words of God in the Bible.

Naw, my sentences needs no structural tweaking, but yes your are correct the words came from Peter. For example Jesus says in John 14: 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. So when you truly doing the will of God, keeping his commandments, statues and judgements, you are connected as the word is written.

There are some Christians that don't believe all the words of God, and instead think they're just the writings of men. In this way they can act like Paul got it wrong somewhere, or Peter elsewhere, etc... It was the same case back then, so that God in 2 Peter had to let all of us know that He was speaking through Paul as well in all his writings.



From the beginning God talks about the physical things that man already sees, and also reveals the spiritual things man became blinded too. He speaks of the Spirit in Gen 1:2, and of man being made in His image in 1:

It's only the unbelieving natural man that remains blind to the spiritual things, that are more important and eternal than the natural. Sometimes we Christians make the same error by reading the Bible with natural eyes only. When reading the Bible we can forget we are reading the only Book in the world of perfect spiritual understanding.

The scripture that came to my mind while reading this part is in Isaiah 29: 9-13

 

[CadyandZoe]

There's a real angst among some Christians about being justified by works, so that faith with works can never be even mentioned as part of being saved.

And so, we can call it believing with obedience. Afterall, we are commanded to repent and believe the gospel, and obey the gospel.

Therefore, we are commanded not only to believe the gospel, but to obey the gospel of Jesus Christ. The Bible teaches we are to believe the gospel with obedience, not with believing alone.

And certainly not believing with disobedience. Disobedient faith is not that of Jesus, but of the world. The devil teaches believing in disobeying God with eternal life.

And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:

That is the gospel of believing without obedience and having faith disobediently unto everlasting life.

Your argument is not entirely convincing because it assumes that if the apostles instruct us to obey the gospel, they mean every form of obedience. For example, adhering to the speed limit or crossing the street with a green light does not necessarily equate to obeying the gospel. Similarly, mixing polyester with cotton does not necessarily mean disobeying the gospel.

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

Living according to the principles of behavior that logically follow from the gospel message is what it means to obey the gospel. The gospel teaches us that if we believe in God's son Jesus Christ, He is willing to forgive our sins. However, Christ also teaches us that if we are unwilling to forgive our brother, then God will not forgive us. Therefore, for us to receive God's forgiveness, we must forgive others as well. This is what it means to obey the gospel concerning forgiveness.

So then, let's look at a passage of scripture that reflects this point of view.

Paul opens his second epistle to the Thessalonians with this.

2 Thessalonians 1:3-4

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. ​

The gospel instructs us to show our allegiance to Jesus by loving one another. It also teaches that those who love him will sacrifice this life for the next by carrying their own cross. In this passage, the apostle praises the Thessalonians for their selfless actions towards their fellow believers despite facing persecution for their faith. They display a genuine love for their brethren and are willing to suffer for their sake, even at the cost of their own lives. Following the faith means actively living out its principles.

From my perspective, James was referring to "works" in a certain way. However, Paul did not disagree with James since Paul was discussing "works of the Law," which are regulations and customs performed not to express faith but to show obedience. Paul declares that God is justifying those of faith who are not leaning on obedience to rules and regulations for approval.

 

[Ghada]

Throwing out passages without understanding, but ones that contain 'keywords,' does not prove your point.

If you say so. A simple 'nah-ah' would suffice.

 

[GeneZ]

If you say so. A simple 'nah-ah' would suffice.

Well then?

Next time when you have no answer? Instead of throwing out passages that do not correlate to what is really being said, just to look impressive?

Just go.... 'nah-ah'' nah-ah'' nah-ah'!

Maybe break it up once in a while with..... 'nadda nadda nadda.'

Glad to assist..

 

[Ghada]

Naw, my sentences needs no structural tweaking, but yes your are correct the words came from Peter.

Ok. So are you saying that Peter warned about Paul's words, as though they needed guarding against, as if they may not be from God?

Or do you mean we are all warned against misreading apostolic words, and just because we don't immediately understand them, we still shouldn't change them to fit our understanding?

For example Jesus says in John 14: 19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. 20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. So when you truly doing the will of God, keeping his commandments, statues and judgements, you are connected as the word is written.

True. The whole Christian concept of being justified by agreeing with the words of God alone, is failure to be justified with God by doing His will. The Lord doesn't care about being agreed with, but being obeyed.

The scripture that came to my mind while reading this part is in Isaiah 29: 9-13

Good verse to apply to it.

 

[Ghada]

Well then?

Next time when you have no answer? Instead of throwing out passages that do not correlate to what is really being said, just to look impressive?

Oh c'mon. If you want to be taken seriously, then you're going to have to explain why someone is doing all this 'throwing our passages' stuff.

Just saying someone is doing something is worthless, if you don't at least try and show how. I thought my point was clear enough, without going into the long drawn out explanation about it.

In any case, if you want to say I'm "Throwing out passages without understanding, but ones that contain 'keywords,'", then please do show how I'm doing so. Otherwise.....

 

[bro.tan]

Ok. So are you saying that Peter warned about Paul's words, as though they needed guarding against, as if they may not be from God?

Or do you mean we are all warned against misreading apostolic words, and just because we don't immediately understand them, we still shouldn't change them to fit our understanding?

Paul talks about two types of laws, works, and deaths. Most people get confuse or taught that both laws are the same, or do not understand how they use to work together. When the bible speaks of laws we no longer have to keep, it is speaking of the sacrificial laws and Priesthood laws. These laws were a school master pointing us to the fact that Jesus would be sacrificed for our sins. Since Jesus died we are no longer under a school master, (required to offer up bulls and goats for our sins).

Now we must believe (have faith) Jesus died for us (Hebrews 10:4,9-10) 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 9 then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

This doesn't mean we don't have to obey God's moral laws (Commandments) of conduct. That would be like a man getting paroled from prison and then ignoring the same laws that sent him to prison in the first place.

True. The whole Christian concept of being justified by agreeing with the words of God alone, is failure to be justified with God by doing His will. The Lord doesn't care about being agreed with, but being obeyed.

Good verse to apply to it.

 

[GeneZ]

True. The whole Christian concept of being justified by agreeing with the words of God alone, is failure to be justified with God by doing His will. The Lord doesn't care about being agreed with, but being obeyed.

The Lord wants His words to be understood .. even if we do not agree.

 

[Ghada]

What does it mean to obey the gospel?

Obey what God says, and not do what He says is sinning.

It's being born anew with a pure heart, clear conscience, and blameless living. And we keep it that way through Christ.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,..

Any man, without respect of persons nor faiths, doing such things, is not obeying God, but is the unrighteous that shall not inherit His kingdom, except we repent and obey Him in all things.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

The Bible newborn conversion of Jesus Christ, is being born anew to become even as He was in this life. (1 John 4:17) The Bible race of endurance unto the end is walking as He walked.

However, Paul did not disagree with James since Paul was discussing "works of the Law,"

True, as well as any works of our own without Christ. The Bible conversion is with all old past life forgiven and passed away.

That includes all the filthy rags of good deeds that are not done through Christ from a pure heart.

The Christian doctrine of incomplete conversion, where we are still sinning before, after, and through conversion, is not that of the Bible, but that of Christian religion. And so, such Christian good deeds 'following' are in effect the same filthy rags as before. Some of them even confess as much. (Though they think they're being 'humble' about it.)

So long as the old sinning continues with lust in the heart, then so continues the life of filthy rags as well. It's just less sinning than before converting to Christian religion. It's the sinful Gentile version of Judaized Christianity, where obedience to the old law of Moses continues through conversion to remain afterward.

Only those who repent of our whole past life without Christ, can come to a complete stop of all old sins and filthy rags, including those keeping the law of Moses, so that a completely new beginning is made by grace to become now all of God.

It's the same as the whole old world coming to a complete stop at the cross and death of Jesus, with the whole new kingdom of God brought to earth by His resurrection and outpouring of the Spirit upon all flesh.

The Christian gospel of continued, but less sinning throughout, never comes to that complete stop from the past life, but just continues on as before, except with Christian religion and a better lifestyle. Just ask any of them, or even yourself. They and/or you will plainly say you've never ceased from sinning at any day on earth.

 

[Ghada]

which are regulations and customs performed not to express faith but to show obedience. Paul declares that God is justifying those of faith who are not leaning on obedience to rules and regulations for approval.

True. The lovers of God and not of their own selves, are not loving God with works, just to be justified with Him, but we certainly are not justified with Him without the works. His justifying approval is not given without doing the obedient work of faith.

Abraham was not justified by God, until he had offered up Isaac. That's why the Bible preaches he was justified by God when he had offered up Isaac.

Only when God says to us, Now I know that thou fearest me, does He then call us Friend.

Those that are not being Friends of God by works of His righteousness, are still being enemies of God by works of the world. (James 4)

Look, all this parsing of doctrines, and maneuverings of words, etc... are all just intellectual exercise to God. Without the obedience and works of faith from the heart, no man is going to be resurrected from the dead unto life. Not by God the Father, who judges every man's work in the end. And no man's use and skill with words to formulate a doctrine, that says otherwise, will make it past the grave.

For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

No man is going to resurrect ourselves unto life by the power of our own faith alone, nor by the convincing arguments of our doctrine only.

All I do here is teach the Bible by repeating the words as they are, and show if any Christian teaching, doctrine, gospel, prophecy, etc... is different from the words of the Bible.

If that's not the case, then I welcome any proof of it. But only from the words of the Bible, and in the order of those words in the Bible.

 

[Ghada]

Your argument is not entirely convincing

It is to me, that's why I do it and seek to obey God whenever I know to.

This is the thing. I'm not trying to convince you of any argument or gospel I teach. I only endeavor to teach the Bible argument, and show if other Christians gospels and arguments do not agree.

because it assumes that if the apostles instruct us to obey the gospel, they mean every form of obedience.

True, and that form of obedience brought by Jesus Christ is within the platter first, and also outwardly. Not just outwardly as a Pharisee with outward righteousness only.

And it's not possible to inwardly obey God in the heart, while also outwardly disobeying His words.

For example, adhering to the speed limit or crossing the street with a green light does not necessarily equate to obeying the gospel.

Obeying the ordinance of man is commanded in the gospel. However, in that regard, a matter of conscience is also called upon, such as when we ought to obey God and not man. (Acts 5)

And so far as traffic rules are concerned, let conscience and the traffic cops worry about it. However, if by our driving, we do damage to others, then that's where we are responsible for our own ox.

Similarly, mixing polyester with cotton does not necessarily mean disobeying the gospel.

I'm a NT Christian. Not an OT saint.

Living according to the principles of behavior that logically follow from the gospel message is what it means to obey the gospel.

Principles are nothing, if disobeying in the deeds. They're as useless to save and justify the soul, as faith while sinning with the devil.

The gospel teaches us that if we believe in God's son Jesus Christ, He is willing to forgive our sins. However, Christ also teaches us that if we are unwilling to forgive our brother, then God will not forgive us. Therefore, for us to receive God's forgiveness, we must forgive others as well. This is what it means to obey the gospel concerning forgiveness.

Agree. From the heart.

So then, let's look at a passage of scripture that reflects this point of view.

Paul opens his second epistle to the Thessalonians with this.

2 Thessalonians 1:3-4

We ought always to give thanks to God for you, brethren, as is only fitting, because your faith is greatly enlarged, and the love of each one of you toward one another grows ever greater; therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure. ​

The gospel instructs us to show our allegiance to Jesus by loving one another. It also teaches that those who love him will sacrifice this life for the next by carrying their own cross. In this passage, the apostle praises the Thessalonians for their selfless actions towards their fellow believers despite facing persecution for their faith. They display a genuine love for their brethren and are willing to suffer for their sake, even at the cost of their own lives. Following the faith means actively living out its principles.

True again.

From my perspective, James was referring to "works" in a certain way.

Right. The only way to be justified by Christ is by works, and not by faith alone.

 

[CadyandZoe]

The Bible newborn conversion of Jesus Christ, is being born anew to become even as He was in this life. (1 John 4:17) The Bible race of endurance unto the end is walking as He walked.

Once again, you missed John's point. He makes reference to "when we see him", which places our perfection at the Second Coming of Christ. This is in agreement with Paul's statement that the sting of sin and death will be conquered at the Seventh Trumpet.

The Christian doctrine of incomplete conversion, where we are still sinning before, after, and through conversion, is not that of the Bible, but that of Christian religion. And so, such Christian good deeds 'following' are in effect the same filthy rags as before. Some of them even confess as much. (Though they think they're being 'humble' about it.)

As I demonstrated, your view of perfection is not based on the New Testament.

So long as the old sinning continues with lust in the heart, then so continues the life of filthy rags as well.

No. The one does not necessarily follow from the other. Many Christian men, including Paul the Apostle, have lust in their hearts but do not act on that lust; they have, as Paul recommended, given their members in service of righteousness instead. Refer to Romans 6 and 7.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Look, all this parsing of doctrines, and maneuverings of words, etc... are all just intellectual exercise to God.

Posting an alleged teaching from the Bible by making spurious arguments based on redefinitions of words must be met with counterarguments that challenge the meaning of words and how language works to communicate ideas.

All I do here is teach the Bible by repeating the words as they are, and show if any Christian teaching, doctrine, gospel, prophecy, etc... is different from the words of the Bible.

I respectfully disagree. You do more than repeat the words.