"Faith without works is dead"..........lets get it right.

[Kidron]

Some of you have the typical legalistic theology that is firmly created by not being able to distinguish between salvation and discipleship.
You are combining them into your single idea of salvation, and that is your extreme error.
Now understand.........."Salvation"...."Discipleship".............two different words and two completely different definitions.

Now Let me explain James and that one verse that just flips out so many believers (and others)..

FAITH without works is DEAD".

what does this really mean?

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.
Thats the meaning.
In essence, and according to James......your faith, even tho it has saved you, has wilted and become hybernated and "dead"..
Understand?
Do you understand that if you dont use something you lose it?
Try not lifting anything with your right arm for one year and watch your arm turn into a lifeless useless piece of flesh that just dangles "without WORKS" by your side.
Yet if you do WORK with it all the time, what happens?
See it?
See the verse?
Are you LOOKING?
Faith is your ARM, and using it is WORKS.
Now get that...

Now, get this.
Salvation, is........"God on a cross saving you for FREE".

Discipleship is........."what you do for GOD AFTER you are saved and not to try to earn or keep your salvation".

see the difference?
Understand?

When you or legalistic people like you read....."faith without works is dead",... you twist it in your skulls to be interpreted as....."i can only >be saved< if i do stuff, keep the law, live holy, and confess every sin like a maniac".
But the verse is not talking about being saved, its telling you to DO SOMETHING NOW THAT YOU ARE SAVED OTHER THEN SNORE IN CHURCH AND PLAY ONLINE ALL DAY.
Its talking about DISCIPLESHIP...............DISCIPLESHIP............DISCIPLESHIP.....>After you are SAVED<..
The verse is telling you that after you are saved, if you dont get in the Holy game and stop your sinning, and live for the Lord, then you will backslide and soon forget what your faith has recreated you to be, and then your faith is useless, IT DEAD..... other then it saved you.
Your faith has become DEAD in the sense that it hasen't any power, any authority, or life.
Listen, what James is saying is...."""Let me show you by my good works that my faith is ALIVE""".
Let my good works, my Christian deeds, prove to all that im not some backslid nothing, but rather my works prove im IN THE GAME, im WALKING THE WALK......im a good disciple......and hes not doing it to be saved.....but because he IS saved...

Legalistic people like you confuse this verse to teach that James is saying you do works to BE SAVED, but that is 100% error, as what he is saying is....BECAUSE I AM SAVED, LOOK AT WHAT I DO FOR THE LORD...........SEE IT...............SEE MY WORKS........LOOK, LOOK........LOOK and do the SAME THING !!

and that, is DISCIPLESHIP ..

So dont confuse salvation with discipleship., and dont continue to use James or Hebrews to try to confuse yourself.

Let me ask you a few questions....
.
Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?
Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?
Have you stopped watching dirty cable tv and R rated movies yet?
Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least 30 minutes?
Do you witness to people on the street or on the job or to your neighbors YET????
If not, your faith is pretty much .....dead....dead .....dead...according to JAMES.....as you are doing nothing with it.
nothing !!
But you are still SAVED....absolutely..... as you cant be unborn again.<

That is what James is telling you in his letter.
Are you listening?
Time to get the scripture right, dont you think?
Time to get BUSY, or else as James says, your "faith is dead" !!.



K

 

[Episkopos]

Do you pray and meditate on the Lord all day long, everyday?
Have you won more then 10 people to Christ since you were saved?
Have you stopped watching dirty cable tv and R rated movies yet?
Do you read your bible at least 2 x a day for at least an 30 minutes?
Do you witness to people on the street or on the job or to your neighbors YET?

If not, your faith is dead....dead .....dead........as you are doing nothing with it.
nothing !!
But you are still SAVED.<

You are piling on human efforts AFTER you claim salvation???? That's exactly what the Galatians were doing! There's no...do this and do that under grace. You are doing what you accuse me of doing. Human reasoning is a killer. You condemn the truth and the power of abiding in Christ, then you tell people what they should be physically doing in order to prove that they are good Christians. That is perfectly Pharisaical.

It's like this...you don't have to get a real degree in medicine..it's FREE. Now if you want to look like a doctor then wear a lab coat!!! If you don't wear a labcoat than you won't appear to be a doctor (hint hint) but you can still claim to be one.

You have mastered the art of creating hypocrisy!

Gal 2:4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage:

Gal 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

We can't claim to be saved and then try to clean up our own acts so we "appear" more Christian. We are to cease from our own works to be under grace...not put on a show for the flesh. There is an increasing danger in our time of bad doctrine to be a Pharisee and make it look good. This is the opposite of the way in Christ.

Rather when we are under grace we act from there and have no need to fill any criteria or law. We are human BEINGS not human DOINGS. So the fruit of the Spirit comes from the Spirit not from us. It is not a show...it is real.

 

[Foreigner]

Gotta love the newer members.
Coming on and preaching down to everyone as if they automatically know what everyone here is doing wrong.

Kidron, you need to relax and eat some fruit.

Perhaps put the same effort into listening as you put into ranting.
Perhaps you will realize there is something you do not know.

 

[Episkopos]

It really means that AFTER you are saved, if you do nothing for God, if you dont mature as a Christian,... if you just get saved and then return back to your old lifestyle, then you have no works, no deeds, NOTHING to prove you are saved...........but it does not mean you are lost.

Quite the illogical statement!

 

[brightmorningstar]

If there are no good works accompanying the faith then it isnt faith in Christ. Salvation is faith in Christ alone, but by one's fruit one shall be known. Doing good works is teh manifestation of faith in Christ, Jesus taught that we are in Him and He in us when we do what He teaches.
simple

 

[neophyte]

[background=#fff]James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22
Thanks to John Salza [ apologist for Christ's Catholic/ Apostolic Church ] for the above Book of James proper interpretation.[/background]

 

[Episkopos]

If there are no good works accompanying the faith then it isnt faith in Christ. Salvation is faith in Christ alone, but by one's fruit one shall be known. Doing good works is teh manifestation of faith in Christ, Jesus taught that we are in Him and He in us when we do what He teaches.
simple

But the OP is tickling the ears....as in...you want to make it look like you have salvation???...you can now since you have declared yourself saved!!! So ironically the smokescreen against salvation by works is actually being preached but through the back door. Oh, the games of men!

[background=#fff]James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22
Thanks to John Salza [ apologist for Christ's Catholic/ Apostolic Church ] for the above Book of James proper interpretation.[/background]

Faith unlocks the heavens to us....we grasp the New covenant in this way. We are not to try producing good works...they flow naturally from the supernatural dimension of a new life in Christ.

Col 2:20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
Col 2:21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
Col 2:22 Which all are to perish with the using

after the commandments and doctrines of men?
Col 2:23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

 

[veteran]

Kidron is correct on this "faith without works is dead" issue in James 2. James wasn't talking about works saving us, but about works as evidence of our Faith. A deeper study about brethren in the future Millennium that do iniquity after being saved, like the unprofitable servant Jesus gave, and the five foolish virgins, should be a wake up call.

Even when our Lord Jesus warned to keep our garments lest we appear naked in shame, that's a warning to keep to the plough after having believed on Him, continuing in His work. The idea of being without garments, naked, and ashamed in Heaven doesn't mean that believer won't be saved. We still have the Millennium to go through yet. But like Jesus said about the unprofitable servant, he was to be cast to the outer darkness among the unbelievers during that time (Matt.25).

 

[neophyte]

Why does the Roman Catholic Church teach the doctrine of "works righteousness," that through good works one can earn salvation?


Answer

The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine and, in fact, has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.
The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).
The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).
The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).
By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture. Don't let "Bible Christians" throw you for a loop on this one.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.
From the Teachings of The Catholic Church.

 

[veteran]

Just as a good father will only have patience so far with a rebellious son in trying to correct him before casting him out, it's the same with our Heavenly Father and His Son. This is why Jesus will close the door on the five foolish virgins of Matthew 25 and those who claimed to follow Him but followed the workers of iniquity instead (Matt.7).

 

[Kidron]

You are piling on human efforts AFTER you claim salvation???? That's exactly what the Galatians were doing!

Not at all.
Im merely showing you the difference between working to be saved which is what Paul is warning against in Galatians,..., and doing the discipleship works of a Christian because you ARE saved.
If you have trouble understanding this difference its because you read this verse..."faith without works is dead", to mean.."i will save my own soul by my works + Jesus atonement".
Thats what i have shown you in this thread, and only a master of Legalism could miss it., which is why you dont have a clue as to what i have written, Episkopos.

See, I wrote a thread to show you the clear distinction between "salvation" and "discipleship" and how this becomes theologically confused by a lot of believers when they read that verse in the epistle entitled, "JAMES"
Did you see it?..
Apparently not.
Try looking again and pay attention next time.
Till then.....Here it is again, just for you., however i dont know that it'll stick as you have what i call a "Teflon theology", in that no truth ever STICKS with people like you....
Now listen carefully Episkopos >and all others who are confused like him<......A Born again Christian does not work to be saved, they do NOTHING to be saved, regarding keeping the commandments or living holy, etc
A Christian is saved by receiving by faith a bloody sacificial atonement that was created by God and executed by God and offered for free.
AFTER a Christian is saved, their standing, their position as a Son of God, creates them to be a disciple, literally, of Christ.
And as a Disciple, you and I and all believers are to DO some things.
These "things" , these "works", are the labor of the body of Christ, and they include....

Witnessing
Bible Study
Praying for the sick
Discontinuing all known sin.
Prayer and meditation on God, his Son, and the things of God.
Becoming active in your local church.

so, these things ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ and others are the "work" of a disciple of Christ in 2012.
And these "works" are the works that prove that you are in the faith, or as James says......"I'll show you my faith by my works".


Got it?




K

Gotta love the newer members.
Coming on and preaching down to everyone as if they automatically know what everyone here is doing wrong.

Is your mild sarcasm your way of admitting that my Thread found a bullseye inside your "works for Grace" theology?
Is that the fruit of my labor found in you, "foreigner"?
Seems so.
My advice to you is to respond to the Thread's topic and not personally to the messenger, coz when you do that, you expose your fruit for all to see.

think about that, foreigner, while you relax.




K

Quite the illogical statement!

Try understanding the context of my statement if you must yank a quote out of context.
Here, let me explain....

As you are not capable of saving yourself by works, deeds, or keeping the law.....(dont try it)...... you are as a born again disciple instructed to live a sinless life as much as possible, and you are to do the works of a Child of God which include , witnessing, prayer, bible study, feeding the poor, ...however, if you do none of this....if all you do is rant online for example, you are still saved.
Simply put........you are not saved or kept saved by WORKS, ..........however, you are required as a disciple to do some works.
There, does that help you to grasp it?
Hope so.




K

 

[neophyte]

Salvation theology is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.
The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and you Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).
The Church teaches "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema".
By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture. All you "Bible Christians" [Sola Fide] out there try and throw other Catholics and myself a loop on this one.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.

 

[veteran]

Salvation theology is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.
The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and you Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).
The Church teaches "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema".
By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture. All you "Bible Christians" [Sola Fide] out there try and throw other Catholics and myself a loop on this one.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification.

That post is unwarranted since Kidron's argument is not about how we are saved by The Blood of Jesus Christ, but what we are supposed to be doing after... we've been saved.

Christ's enemies today, of which many of them have crept into the Church, have the aim to make works for Christ Jesus ineffective. It's a design to limit us from preaching and witnessing the True Gospel of Jesus Christ as the only Way of Salvation per The New Testament, and a design to limit The New Testament warnings to believers about falling away from Christ afterwards by following iniquity.

We are seeing today Churches that support the iniquity of homosexuality, wrongly preaching that such lusts of the flesh is not sin when Apostle Paul preached directly against such practices (Rom.1; Gal.5).

We are seeing many Churches that continually preach The Gospel Salvation Doctrine from The New Testament, and not much else, leaving those who long ago accepted The Gospel to hear a continual getting saved Message over and over and over, with no teachers to give them true Bible teaching directly from God's Word which they need afterwards to become real disciples reaching maturity in Christ Jesus.

 

[Kidron]

If there are no good works accompanying the faith then it isnt faith in Christ. Salvation is faith in Christ alone, but by one's fruit one shall be known. Doing good works is teh manifestation of faith in Christ, Jesus taught that we are in Him and He in us when we do what He teaches.
simple

Yes, and as long as you are not suggesting that without works as proof of Salvation, a person really isnt saved, then you are not the subject of my Thread.
As the subject of my thread is a person who misuses James and the scripture that says "faith without works is dead" to teach that..... works + faith saves you and not faith in Christ alone.
So, hopefully that is not what you are suggesting, tho there is a bit of fuzz in your post's approach to salvation without works.


K

James 2:24 - the phrase "faith alone" (the Greek "pisteos monon") only occurs once in the Bible. "Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone." Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

James 1:22-25 - it's the "doers" who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God's grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the "works" to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of "works" is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of "works" is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab's fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22
Thanks to John Salza [ apologist for Christ's Catholic/ Apostolic Church ] for the above Book of James proper interpretation.

Its never a surprise that a Diehard Legalist Catholic will show up on a Thread that is devoted to undoing the "James" >works for faith< confusion, and attempt to use 45,897 verses in James to prove that Faith in Christ alone is not really what saves a person.
Who would have guessed

And that you use a commentary, instead of a Bible, to try to prove your theological fallacy, is something new for a Catholic?
Not Quite.

Well, since you came here with your Catholic salvos and fired them, i'll offer you a chance to kick it up a notch for those here who really have not a clue as to what Catholic theology teaches regarding, "justification by faith alone".
Its needless at this point to speak about the Catholic church's position whereby they conclude that Mary died a virgin, ascended to heaven, and is a 2nd mediator for salvation with Christ being the 1st mediator..
No need to discuss that yet neophyte, but you might for the benefit of the actual born again believers on this forum use the Catholic's current doctrinal statement which explains that, 'If any person believes that they are saved and justified before God based on faith in Christ alone, that person is anathema"
This is an offical Catholic doctrinal statement regarding their explanation of "Salvation" of the soul.
Now, neophyte, go ahead and explain to all of the born again people here who trusted in Christ alone, why according to your Church's current doctrinal statement on Salvation, they are CURSED OF GOD, if they believe they are justified by faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus The Christ.
Tell all of these born again believers why current and old Catholic Church DOCTRINE states that their Faith in Christ alone, damns them....damns them.!!
Use one of your commentaries if you think that will help with your explanation.



K

 

[neophyte]

Yes, and as long as you are not suggesting that without works as proof of Salvation, a person really isnt saved, then you are not the subject of my Thread.
As the subject of my thread is a person who misuses James and the scripture that says "faith without works is dead" to teach that..... works + faith saves you and not faith in Christ alone.
So, hopefully that is not what you are suggesting, tho there is a bit of fuzz in your post's approach to salvation without works.


K



Its never a surprise that a Diehard Legalist Catholic will show up on a Thread that is devoted to undoing the "James" >works for faith< confusion, and attempt to use 45,897 verses in James to prove that Faith in Christ alone is not really what saves a person.
Who would have guessed

And that you use a commentary, instead of a Bible, to try to prove your theological fallacy, is something new for a Catholic?
Not Quite.

Well, since you came here with your Catholic salvos and fired them, i'll offer you a chance to kick it up a notch for those here who really have not a clue as to what Catholic theology teaches regarding, "justification by faith alone".
Its needless at this point to speak about the Catholic church's position whereby they conclude that Mary died a virgin, ascended to heaven, and is a 2nd mediator for salvation with Christ being the 1st mediator..
No need to discuss that yet neophyte, but you might for the benefit of the actual born again believers on this forum use the Catholic's current doctrinal statement which explains that, 'If any person believes that they are saved and justified before God based on faith in Christ alone, that person is anathema"
This is an offical Catholic doctrinal statement regarding their explanation of "Salvation" of the soul.
Now, neophyte, go ahead and explain to all of the born again people here who trusted in Christ alone, why according to your Church's current doctrinal statement on Salvation, they are CURSED OF GOD, if they believe they are justified by faith alone in the shed blood of Jesus The Christ.
Tell all of these born again believers why current and old Catholic Church DOCTRINE states that their Faith in Christ alone, damns them....damns them.!!
Use one of your commentaries if you think that will help with your explanation.



K

Kidron, you haven't a clue. I'll easily refute your lack of knowledge on the Only Church that Jesus ever left for all of us. That True Apostolic Church certainly isn't your man-made church, and that is an absolute. .I'll easily refute your foolishness when I get time.------------------

Non-Catholics have been suspicious for a long time that the Church’s discussion of good works means that one must do good works in order to enter a state of justification. But the Catholic Church has never taught this. In Catholic teaching, one is not capable of doing supernaturally good works outside of a state of justification because one does not have the virtue of charity in one’s soul--the thing that makes good works good: "none of those things that precede justification, whether faith or works, merit the grace of justification"
Good works are a consequence of entering a state of justification and can never be the cause of entering it:

We confess that good works—a Christian life lived in faith, hope, and love—follow justification and are its fruits. When the justified live in Christ and act in the grace they receive, they bring forth, in biblical terms, good fruit. . . .
When Catholics affirm the "meritorious" character of good works, they wish to say that, according to the biblical witness, a reward in heaven is promised to these works. Their intention is to emphasize the responsibility of persons for their actions, not to contest the character of those works as gifts, or far less to deny that justification always remains the unmerited gift of grace.
From the Teachings of the Church​

 

[Kidron]

Kidron is correct on this "faith without works is dead" issue in James 2. James wasn't talking about works saving us, but about works as evidence of our Faith.

Correct.

"If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).

From the Teachings of The Catholic Church.

u

Thank you for showing all non-catholics here that the very Gospel of the Grace of God, that freely saves us by faith alone, is, according to the Catholic Doctrine, "Anathema".
Most protestants have no idea that the very doctrine of justification by faith alone for salvation........This 2000 year old Pauline Theology that came straight from Jesus to Paul,......is, according to Catholic Doctrine, not the way to be saved, and in fact, if you believe as Paul taught, you are to be kicked out of the "Catholic church" as a heretic/
>HELLO MARTIN LUTHER AND PAUL THE APOSTLE and BILLY GRAHAM< = ANATHEMA = according to current Catholic Church Doctrine regarding "Salvation".
This anti-Grace, anti-free Gift, anti-atonement by faith alone Catholic Doctrine, is the KING OF HERESY.. as it actually denies the Bible, the Atonement, and, everything that Paul taught the body of Christ regarding Justification, Imputation, Redemption, and Propitiation,..related to the FREE GIFT of Righteousness based on Faith ALONE..
It makes lesser Catholic doctrinal heresy like Mary being equal with Christ in her ability to save, or that she died a virgin, or that she ascended already into heaven, just as Jesus ascended also, or that water baptism saves you.......basically moot.




K

 

[neophyte]

Kidron, you still haven't a clue about Christ's Catholic Church,no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by "faith alone." To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so you and other Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).

Kidron, maybe it would help you to comphehend if you took off your anti-Catholic reading glasses and used an unbias pair when reading this:-
The Catholic Church has never taught such a doctrine of "works righteousness"- that through good works one can earn salvation, do you understand Kidron ? Please stop spreading false information, that is a lie. In fact the Catholic Church has constantly condemned the notion that men can earn or merit salvation. Catholic soteriology (salvation theology) is rooted in apostolic Tradition and Scripture and says that it is only by God's grace--completely unmerited by works--that one is saved.
The Church teaches that it's God's grace from beginning to end which justifies, sanctifies, and saves us. As Paul explains in Philippians 2:13, "God is the one, who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work."
Notice that Paul's words presuppose that the faithful Christian is not just desiring to be righteous, but is actively working toward it. This is the second half of the justification equation, and Protestants either miss or ignore it.
James 2:17 reminds us that "faith of itself, if it does not have work, is dead." In verse 24 James says, "See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone." And later: "For just as a body without a spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead" (2:26).
The Council of Trent harmonizes the necessity of grace and works: "If anyone says that man can be justified before God by his own works, whether done by his own natural powers or by the teaching of the Law, without divine grace through Jesus Christ, let him be anathema" (Session 6; can. 1).
The Council fathers continued by saying, "If anyone says that the sinner is justified by faith alone, meaning that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to obtain the grace of justification and that it is not in any way necessary that he be prepared and disposed by the action of his own will, let him be anathema" (Session 6: can. 9).
By the way, "let him be anathema" means "let him be excommunicated," not "let him be cursed to hell." The phrase was used in conciliar documents in a technical, theological sense, not in the same sense as the word "anathema" is found in Scripture. Don't let "Bible Christians" throw you for a loop on this one.
So, far from teaching a doctrine of "works righteousness" (that would be Pelagianism, which was condemned at the Council of Carthage in A.D. 418), the Catholic Church teaches the true, biblical doctrine of justification. Taken from the Teachings of the Catholic Church