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Fallen Man

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by J.M., Oct 30, 2007.

  1. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    FALLEN MAN: A review of the Scriptures"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689 Genesis 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: 17But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. The penalty for disobedience of God’s command is death:Genesis 3:1 Now the serpent was more subtil than any beast of the field which the LORD God had made. And he said unto the woman, Yea, hath God said, Ye shall not eat of every tree of the garden? 2 And the woman said unto the serpent, We may eat of the fruit of the trees of the garden: 3 But of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God hath said, Ye shall not eat of it, neither shall ye touch it, lest ye die. 4And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: 5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. 6And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Adam’s disobedience brought in the fall of mankind: Romans 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death [death of the body] by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened [made alive], who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. Colossians 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened [made alive] together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; Note: The word dead in Greek is nekros and is defined by Strong’s as, "one that has breathed his last, lifeless." The Augustinian and Federal view understands sin to be imputed to human kind because of Adam’s sin, resulting in the spiritual bankruptcy of all people. This idea finds expressed in the following passages. Psalm 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me. Pslam 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb: they go astray as soon as they be born, speaking lies. John 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. Comment: We are born in sin, it’s for this reason our Lord Jesus Christ tells us we need to be born again to enter God’s kingdom. Christ’s words in John 3:3, "he cannot see." This is in direct relation to man’s ability. Ask your self can the carnal fleshy man bring about spiritual change? Not according to Christ’s words, "that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." The heart of fallen man as a result of the fall: Genesis 6:5 And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Genesis 8:21 And the LORD smelled a sweet savour; and the LORD said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. Ecclesiastes 9:3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Jeremiah 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it? Mark 7:21 For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, 22 Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness: 23 All these evil things come from within, and defile the man. John 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. Comment: This point is important for those who believe man desires to be saved, they don’t. Men are slaves to sin and love to sin; they harden their hearts to the Gospel offer for the reason stated above.Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: [The fallen mind of man is hostile toward God] for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. Comment: Fallen man cannot discern spiritual things and it should be crystal clear. Ephesians 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind, 18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart: [And what is the reason for their blindness? Vanity of their mind, the understanding was darkened.] 19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness. Ephesians 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light: Titus 1:15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. Before God enables fallen man to respond, we belong to the Devil: John 8:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. John 8:44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it. Rom. 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness. Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 2 Timothy 2:25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. Titus 3:3 For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, and hating one another. 1 John 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. 1 John 5:19 And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. All are sinners: 2 Chronicles 6:36 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man which sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives unto a land far off or near; 1 Kings 8:46 If they sin against thee, (for there is no man that sinneth not,) and thou be angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captives unto the land of the enemy, far or near; Job 15:14 What is man, that he should be clean? and he which is born of a woman, that he should be righteous? 15 Behold, he putteth no trust in his saints; yea, the heavens are not clean in his sight. 16 How much more abominable and filthy is man, which drinketh iniquity like water? Psalm 130:3 If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand? Psalm 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified. Proverbs 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Ecclesiastes 7:20 For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. Isaiah 64:5 Thou meetest him that rejoiceth and worketh righteousness, those that remember thee in thy ways: behold, thou art wroth; for we have sinned: in those is continuance, and we shall be saved. Isaiah 53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Romans 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin; 10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. 12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. James 3: 2 For in many things we offend all. If any man offend not in word, the same is a perfect man, and able also to bridle the whole body. 3 Behold, we put bits in the horses' mouths, that they may obey us; and we turn about their whole body. 4Behold also the ships, which though they be so great, and are driven of fierce winds, yet are they turned about with a very small helm, whithersoever the governor listeth. 5 Even so the tongue is a little member, and boasteth great things. Behold, how great a matter a little fire kindleth! 6 And the tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity: so is the tongue among our members, that it defileth the whole body, and setteth on fire the course of nature; and it is set on fire of hell. 7For every kind of beasts, and of birds, and of serpents, and of things in the sea, is tamed, and hath been tamed of mankind: 8 But the tongue can no man tame; it is an unruly evil, full of deadly poison. 1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. If man is left dead in sin, they are unable to repent: Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one. Comments: If we have the ability to see the Spiritual offer of the Gospel as fallen in sin, it is impossible to bring the clean spirit out of the unclean. Our nature is dead in and cannot respond to the Gospel offer, it is by the convicting power of the Holy Spirit that man is brought to repentance. Jeremiah 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil. Comment: The evil cannot change on their own. Matthew 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? 17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. Matthew 12:33 Either make the tree good, and his fruit good; or else make the tree corrupt, and his fruit corrupt: for the tree is known by his fruit. John 6:44 [This is a classic passage demonstrating importance of God the Father drawing the saints to Christ.] NO MAN CAN COME TO ME, EXCEPT THE FATHER WHICH HATH SENT ME DRAW HIM: and I will raise him up at the last day. Comments: Those and only those who are called will be raised up, not all mankind is drawn or all mankind would be raised up as the passages reads. We also find the teaching of eternal security for the true believer, being raised up is a fact. Man’s inability to choice the good, the spiritual is because of our nature. God the Father must call them. John 6: 65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. [Notice, ‘except.’ One cannot even see the Kingdom without the new birth.] Our sufficiency is from God: 1 Corinthians 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God [which is why these topics are to be discussed with brethren and not the world]: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians 4:7 For who maketh thee to differ from another? and what hast thou that thou didst not receive? now if thou didst receive it, why dost thou glory, as if thou hadst not received it? 2 Corinthians 3:5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God; Faith and repentance are gifts from God: Acts 5: 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins. Acts 11:18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life. Acts 13: 48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life BELIEVED. Comments: They believed because God granted them belief. Acts 16: 14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, [God did it, not Lydia.] that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul. Acts 18: 27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: Ephesians 2 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Ephesians 2: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. Philippians 1: 29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, [It was given to them to believe.] but also to suffer for his sake; 2 Timothy 2: 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will. As you can see, God doesn't think so highly of mankind, and in closing I’ll quote God’s view of man from Romans 3: As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: Their feet are swift to shed blood: Destruction and misery are in their ways: And the way of peace have they not known: There is no fear of God before their eyes. Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. ______________________________________________________________ Conclusion: As you can see the Bible teaches people are by nature, not inclined to love God with their whole heart, mind, or strength to fulfill what God requires. We do see in Scripture how mankind is inclined to serve their own interests and to reject God, but this does not mean people are as bad as they could possibly be, it means that even the good we do usually has a false motive. We shouldn’t view this Biblical teaching to be fatalism or cynicism, but true optimism because God’s love will bring about the ultimate good that He intends for mankind and His creation. I’ll leave you with this quote from Romans, “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”
     
  2. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;21087)
    FALLEN MAN: A review of the Scriptures"Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able by his own strength to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto." London Baptist Confession of Faith 1689
    Hi J.M.The entire human race is guilty of the murder of the Son of God. Christ died in our behalf because all have sinned. The wages of sin is death. Not a spiritual death, but an eternal death. Blessings in Christ,Jake
     
  3. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    What do you think the point of him dying for our sins was? If not to allow us salvation through confession in Jesus Christ and repentance of our sinshave you not heard of the Good news
     
  4. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (kriss;21988)
    What do you think the point of him dying for our sins was? If not to allow us salvation through confession in Jesus Christ and repentance of our sinshave you not heard of the Good news
    Absolutely, that's why the idea that Adam and Eve only died a spiritual death leaves it far short of the glory of the cross, Christ's death was comparable to an eternal death, if not, the wages of sin were not paid for in whole. Christ died the equivalent of the second death, that's the wages of sin. Revelation 20. That's the better Good News of the cross. If Christ's death was only physical, as Mel Gibson's movies portrays, then we have not seen God's Agape for all mankind. The complete truth of the cross is what "melts" the heart into an appreciation that will give the sinner full and complete dedication to our Lord and Saviour. It's a heart motive, no mental assent to the cross will ultimately save anyone. Romans 10:10. When the arch enemy said to Eve, "You will not surely die," this was the first lie in the garden. When God said, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." God was not talking principally of a "spiritual death" but an eternal death. .... We can thank our Lord and Saviour for His erected cross at that very moment. Revelation 13:8. Thanks,Jake
     
  5. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    Jake, forgive me for being unclear. The fall resulted in a total death, meaning both spiritually AND physically.
     
  6. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (J.M.;22040)
    Jake, forgive me for being unclear. The fall resulted in a total death, meaning both spiritually AND physically.
    I don't think you were necessarily "unclear," it's just that the issues of the Bible are not reconciled with a few brief points, ... I can gather you're an ardent student of the Bible, no flattery intended, just my observation. ... Hope we can be open to discuss God's word with a vulnerability, wiping away any shame or pride in self. .... "I am nothing, He is everything." Gal. 6:3. Thanks for your willingness to respond. Blessings in Christ to you. Jake
     
  7. J.M.

    J.M. New Member

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    I don't think you were necessarily "unclear," it's just that the issues of the Bible are not reconciled with a few brief points, ... Jake
    I agree but I was addressing only a few brief points...:bible:
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Absolutely, that's why the idea that Adam and Eve only died a spiritual death leaves it far short of the glory of the cross, Christ's death was comparable to an eternal death, if not, the wages of sin were not paid for in whole. Christ died the equivalent of the second death, that's the wages of sin. Revelation 20. That's the better Good News of the cross. If Christ's death was only physical, as Mel Gibson's movies portrays, then we have not seen God's Agape for all mankind. The complete truth of the cross is what "melts" the heart into an appreciation that will give the sinner full and complete dedication to our Lord and Saviour. It's a heart motive, no mental assent to the cross will ultimately save anyone. Romans 10:10. When the arch enemy said to Eve, "You will not surely die," this was the first lie in the garden. When God said, "but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." God was not talking principally of a "spiritual death" but an eternal death. .... We can thank our Lord and Saviour for His erected cross at that very moment. Revelation 13:8. Thanks,Jake
    I think I have a some understanding of what you are trying to get at (maybe not:))But you seem to be conbining to many concepts here into one thingChrist could not have died the second death Jake the second death is the death of ones soul it is only assigned at this time to Satan,Luciferthe second death means you cease to exist you are as though you never were you are are not remembered you are gone from all thingsthis is not what happened to Christ he returned to his Father After the second death their is nothing left to return to anywhere. there fore the second death does not even apply to this conversation it has never as of yet ever been given as judgement on anyone but Satan.
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."With your mind [heart] man believeth unto the justification of righteousness. When you believe that Jesus defeated death, and you see your need for repentance, your confession is then made unto salvation with your mouth. When we confess our sins to the Father then salvation comes to us. Rev. 20 Swithces to a completely different time the White Throne judgement is after the 1000 year milliuem 1000 years after Christs second coming it has little to do with this ageexcept for those who do not overcome in this Age. That judgement is when you can die the second death. And its after Satan is defeated in this age and then released again for a short time to test those that didnt overcome in this age. You seem to be again combining things that dont belong together.
     
  10. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (kriss;22050)
    I think I have a some understanding of what you are trying to get at (maybe not:))But you seem to be conbining to many concepts here into one thingChrist could not have died the second death Jake the second death is the death of ones soul it is only assigned at this time to Satan,Luciferthe second death means you cease to exist you are as though you never were you are are not remembered you are gone from all thingsthis is not what happened to Christ he returned to his Father After the second death their is nothing left to return to anywhere. there fore the second death does not even apply to this conversation it has never as of yet ever been given as judgement on anyone but Satan.
    Hi Kriss,If I may ask softly, what is the wages of sin? I did not say Christ "Himself" died the "second death" but that He died in our "behalf" the second death. I know Kriss, it's so paradoxical that it goes against everything WE believe. Is the curse of sin that Christ took for us (Gal. 3:10-13) a life of immortality or one that perishes? (John 3:16). Both, depending on your response to Christ. Did not Christ have to pay the full "judgment price?" Was the "curse of sin" only the first death, physical, or something much deeper, such as eternal. It is true that Christ was resurrected, yet as one person said it best,"Upon Christ as our substitute and surety was laid the iniquity of us all. He was counted a transgressor, that He might redeem us from the condemnation of the law. The guilt of every descendant of Adam was pressing upon His heart. The wrath of God against sin, the terrible manifestation of His displeasure because of iniquity, filled the soul of His Son with consternation. All His life Christ had been publishing to a fallen world the good news of the Father's mercy and pardoning love. Salvation for the chief of sinners was His theme. But now with the terrible weight of guilt He bears, He cannot see the Father's reconciling face. The withdrawal of the divine countenance from the Saviour in this hour of supreme anguish pierced His heart with a sorrow that can never be fully understood by man. So great was this agony that His physical pain was hardly felt. Satan with his fierce temptations wrung the heart of Jesus. The Saviour could not see through the portals of the tomb. Hope did not present to Him His coming forth from the grave a conqueror, or tell Him of the Father's acceptance of the sacrifice. He feared that sin was so offensive to God that Their separation was to be eternal. Christ felt the anguish which the sinner will feel when mercy shall no longer plead for the guilty race. It was the sense of sin, bringing the Father's wrath upon Him as man's substitute, that made the cup He drank so bitter, and broke the heart of the Son of God." End Quote. Jake
     
  11. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (kriss;22055)
    Romans 10:10 "For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation."With your mind [heart] man believeth unto the justification of righteousness. When you believe that Jesus defeated death, and you see your need for repentance, your confession is then made unto salvation with your mouth. When we confess our sins to the Father then salvation comes to us. Rev. 20 Swithces to a completely different time the White Throne judgement is after the 1000 year milliuem 1000 years after Christs second coming it has little to do with this ageexcept for those who do not overcome in this Age. That judgement is when you can die the second death. And its after Satan is defeated in this age and then released again for a short time to test those that didnt overcome in this age. You seem to be again combining things that dont belong together.
    God's time is not dispensationally bound like my finite mind. ... About the curse, a fine quote:"What is the curse?—It is death. But we are not dead. We look out over all nature and see the curse upon the whole earth and yet we see life every¬where. What a marvel! Death kills, and death is upon all creation, upon man and beast and plant, yet life is seen every¬where!How can this be?—Simply because Christ Himself suffered the cross that the blessing might come to us; and He still bears it. He died that we might live, and the cross still stands with outstretched arms. Death had no dominion over Him, and the very fact that we live shows the presence of Christ crucified in us, as in all creation, swallowing up death. All the power that there is in all creation is the power of the cross of Christ which saves from sin and saves from death.Now Christ died a willing sacrifice. “I lay down My life, that I might take it again. No man taketh it from Me, but I lay it down of Myself. I have power to lay it down and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.” God hath raised Him up, “having loosed the pains of death; because it was not possible that He should be holden of it.” Acts ii. 24. Why was it impossible that Jesus Christ should be held by the power of the grave? Because there was no sin in Him. “He is my rock, and there is no unrighteousness in Him.” End Quote.Jake
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    The price of sin is death but Christ was the Overcomer and death and sin are both Names for Satan who is the rebeller he represnts all that is against God. For all intensive purposes Christ won the war against Satan,sin, death that day on the Cross because he gave us away to defeat Satan,sin ourselves by claiming the victory Christ gave us.John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."To perish means to turn your soul into ashes, and to eliminate all memory of you at the lake of fire, following the great white throne judgment.You have to rightly divide the Word that is a command by God this means keeping subject and object straight there is a millieuim (1000 year)separation of the judgements spoken of in Rev.20 which covers the end of this age and the 1000 years with Christ on earth teaching us. We have to be careful comparing the End of this age and the milliuem to come. The criteria for judgement is differnt. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life."The conditional action required on the part of a person to prevent him or her soul from perishing, is that his or her soul must "believeth in Him". The one that you believe in is Jesus Christ. All those that believe in Jesus Christ shall not be turned to ashes at judgment day, but shall have everlasting life. The word "everlasting" is better translated from the Greek text, "eternal", because eternal means "from the very beginning of creation of that soul, into the eons of infinity of time, there is no break".What this is saying then, is that the person's soul would not die, but will live from the time that their soul was created in that first earth age, in the distant past, through this earth age, and right into eternity. There would never be any spots of void in the life of that soul. This eliminates the pagan worship of "soul sleep", such as those that teach that when you die, your soul stays in the ground until a so-called rapture. Their very tradition will lead them to the Antichrist in a short time ahead.When you take the word "everlasting" as used in John 3:16, and go to Strong's Greek dictionary, # 166, we find, "Aion", "Perpetual, of past time, present and future, eternal, from beginning without end." If you believe on Christ, then you will never see nor taste of death, even when your soul sheds this decaying flesh body. There will be no soul sleep.The serpent that Moses placed on the pole was an example to the Israelites to obey God, and they would be given life by their believing and obeying, and there were no side trips to perform. Jesus is telling us that this is exactly as it is with eternal life. The pole that we look to is the cross that Jesus Christ shed His blood on, and when we look to Him and accept that shed blood for our forgiveness, through repentance, then we have eternal life. When Nicodemus was talking with Jesus here, the crucifixion had not taken place, but Nicodemus would be one of the men that would prepare Christ's body for burial.It is nice to be baptized because Christ was, but that is not what gives the eternal life. There is membership in the church, with all the other dos and don'ts it sets forth, but they have nothing to do with your eternal salvation. What is important is that you look to the cross that God's only begotten Son died upon, and believe on His only begotten Son, and friend, that is where eternal life comes from; believing in Jesus Christ the only begotten Son.Don't let people rob you of the simplicity of God's Word, it is simply those that believe in Him and repented in Jesus name that shall not perish, but have eternal life.John 3:17 "For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved."God sent His Son into the world for the sole purpose of being crucified, in fulfillment of His Word. When He did this, He did not condemn the world for the actions taken against His Son. Why? Because this was the only way that God could draw you and I back to Himself. Christ's death on the cross paid the full price for every sin that you could ever commit, and by His death the Father is offering you eternal life for your soul, and an inheritance shared with His Son, Jesus Christ. Friend, that is something all the wealth of this world can not buy, and it is offered to you, but it is up to you to accept it.
     
  13. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    Hi Kriss,You stated, "To perish means to turn your soul into ashes, and to eliminate all memory of you at the lake of fire, following the great white throne judgment."I believe we may be at an impasse. ... If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I believe, according to scripture that believers have "eternal life." You believe that those who do believe and do not believe have eternal life, is that correct according to your interpretation of John 3:16? Again, do you understand John 3:16 as saying those who do not believe have "eternal life?" You stated, "The word "everlasting" is better translated from the Greek text, "eternal", because eternal means "from the very beginning of creation of that soul, into the eons of infinity of time, there is no break".What does soul mean? That's a question to be answered. The Hebrew expression translated "living soul" in Genesis 2:7 is nephesh; it is used in several other places in Genesis 1 and 2 as well as throughout the Old Testament and in many of these passages it refers to animals. The Englishmen who translated the King James Version of the Bible rendered nephesh as "living creature" in Genesis 1:21 where it refers to sea animals; will those sea animals be separated from their bodies and have eternal life? they also render it "living creature" in verse 24 where it refers to land animals. In verse 30, this same Hebrew expression is used to describe all living things on the earth. In Genesis 2:19, Adam was asked to name every "living creature"— again, the Hebrew expression is nephesh. So, when we are told that Adam became a "living soul" we are not informed that he was given any inherent immortality or a soul. In the whole of the Old Testament there is simply no support for the idea that a conscious immortal soul goes to heaven or hell (or some other place) at death. Rather, all indications are that conscious life ceases until the time of a future resurrection - as the prophet Daniel recorded:"Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2)."As for you (Daniel), go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance" (Daniel 12:13).The Greek Plato concept of the immortal soul, picked up by Rome (Catholic Church) assumes that individuals already possess eternal life - the only question is where this eternal life is spent after death. In stark contrast, many Bible passages portray immortality strictly as a gift to be given by God. Paul refers directly to the fact that God alone has immortality (I Timothy 6:16). In a well-known statement to the Romans, Paul insists that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life. In other words, the normal consequences of sin is death; but immortality, the opposite of death, is something that man does not have of and by himself; it comes only as a gift from God (Romans 6:23).The scripture often uses the word soul as a personal pronoun, i.e., I, you, me (see Gen. 12:13; Deut. 23:24; Mark 14:34). Our soul then is simply who we are. The Bible also calls our soul, "the flesh" (see Galatians 3:3; Romans 8:4). Jake
     
  14. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.Jag
     
  15. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (thesuperjag;22080)
    Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.Jag
    Correct, the soul that sins shall die, not live for eternity. ... We are all created by God, we are not our own, if one believes or does not believe. ... Not sure what you are trying to convey, although I will say that since the spirit returns to God, do those who perish still have a spirit for eternity? Does the spirit of man, which God says returns to Him ... does He return it again to those who perish an everlasting destruction? Sorry Jag, please expound those scriptures for me. Thanks, Jake
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I believe we may be at an impasse. ... If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I believe, according to scripture that believers have "eternal life." You believe that those who do believe and do not believe have eternal life, is that correct according to your interpretation of John 3:16? (quote)Not exactly Im saying you are mixing up two different things I'm saying that those who have died and were good hearted people maybe they lived by the ten commandments but didnt particulaly know Christ,those who say died before repenting yet believed, Or those that died without hearing the Word will get a second chance in the milleniumthey are taught by the overcomers of this age and Christ himself. Then Satan will be loosed for a little while so they can be tested just as us living now will have to choose Christ or Antichrist. Then comes the White throne judgement. God is fair. However there is a qualification this second group is judged on their Works as grace will no longer be available all those who followed Satan (antichrist) or sinned in Evil will cease to exist in the fiery furnaceIm saying because God is fair it isnt black and white God will read the hearts of all and decide who gets a second chance and who doesn't. This is where our Works come inif you spent your life doing good works and say followed Budda do you deserve the same punishment as One who did no good works and only blasphemed God and his followers?So see its not black and white this is the reason for the millenium to teach the good that were misguided
     
  17. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Revelation 20:6 "Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." We saw that those who took part in the first resurrection were those who died in the Lord, and those who did not yield to Satan, the Antichrist during his "one world" reign. Those who did not take the Antichrist's "mark of the beast", these are the blessed and holy ones. All of these people already will possess an immortal soul during the Millennium.The "second death" is the second time of testing at the end of the Millennium age after Satan is released for a short season. The saints of Christ, and overcomers of the Antichrist's reign in this earth age of the flesh will not go through the second testing, or resurrection, with those mortal souls living in the Millennium age.What are you going to do in the Millennium as a saint of Christ? You're going to be priests of God, and reign with Him. You are going to teach and oversee, and judge those mortal souls, as they will learn and follow all directives of our Lord Jesus Christ.Revelation 20:7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison." When everyone has been taught that are in their mortal (liable to die) soul bodies, then Satan will be loosed. Those teachings were given under perfect conditions, and all will have bodies with no ailments, perfect thought, and no temptations by Satan. In fact, all will even know he was the deceiver of this earth age. Their understanding will be perfect.Then Satan is released.God is a God of love, and His love is shown by his great patience and understanding of the shortcomings of mankind. There will be no one who goes to hell, and is burned by ignorance. If someone follows Satan then, they deserve hell fire, and there will be many that will still follow Satan even with the full knowledge of the truth in their minds.
     
  18. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    (kriss;22084)
    I believe we may be at an impasse. ... If I'm mistaken, please correct me. I believe, according to scripture that believers have "eternal life." You believe that those who do believe and do not believe have eternal life, is that correct according to your interpretation of John 3:16? (quote)Not exactly Im saying you are mixing up two different things I'm saying that those who have died and were good hearted people maybe they lived by the ten commandments but didnt particulaly know Christ,those who say died before repenting yet believed, Or those that died without hearing the Word will get a second chance in the milleniumthey are taught by the overcomers of this age and Christ himself. Then Satan will be loosed for a little while so they can be tested just as us living now will have to choose Christ or Antichrist. Then comes the White throne judgement. God is fair. However there is a qualification this second group is judged on their Works as grace will no longer be available all those who followed Satan (antichrist) or sinned in Evil will cease to exist in the fiery furnaceIm saying because God is fair it isnt black and white God will read the hearts of all and decide who gets a second chance and who doesn't. This is where our Works come inif you spent your life doing good works and say followed Budda do you deserve the same punishment as One who did no good works and only blasphemed God and his followers?So see its not black and white this is the reason for the millenium to teach the good that were misguided
    I agree in general principle Kriss, believing many will be in heaven, for the first time having heard the name of Jesus. Not because they were necessarily "good" since the Bible declares no one to be good (Rom. 3), but because they have lived up to the light of recognizing God and living by moral principles, recognizing no good in themselves, but aware of God as being far more supreme and glorious (Romans 1). They are aware of their complete sinfulness. Jake
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (preciousmessage;22083)
    (thesuperjag;22080)
    Ezekiel 18:4 - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.Ecclesiastes 12:7 - Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.Jag
    Correct, the soul that sins shall die, not live for eternity. ... We are all created by God, we are not our own, if one believes or does not believe. ... Not sure what you are trying to convey, although I will say that since the spirit returns to God, do those who perish still have a spirit for eternity? Does the spirit of man, which God says returns to Him ... does He return it again to those who perish an everlasting destruction?Sorry Jag, please expound those scriptures for me. Thanks, JakeI am only saying that God created our souls WAY long before he created our flesh body. As our flesh body will return to the ground, as our soul will return to the Father whom gave it.Jag
     
  20. preciousmessage

    preciousmessage New Member

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    I am only saying that God created our souls WAY long before he created our flesh body. As our flesh body will return to the ground, as our soul will return to the Father whom gave it.Jag
    Hi Jag, I can only stick close to God's word. Again, The Hebrew expression translated "living soul" in Genesis 2:7 is nephesh; it is used in several other places in Genesis 1 and 2 as well as throughout the Old Testament and in many of these passages it refers to animals. For the sake of carrying out your idea that the soul returns to heaven, which you state is separate from the body, then the only conclusion is that the animal's have a soul, separate from their bodies.There was a reason God raised up men like Martin Luther after the order of the Dark Ages of the Roman Catholic Church, Luther states:That the bread and wine are transubstantiated in the sacrament; that the essence of God neither generates nor is generated; that the soul is the substantial form of the human body that he [the pope] is emperor of the world and king of heaven, and earthly god; that the soul is immortal; and all these endless monstrosities in the Roman dunghill of decretals—in order that such as his faith is, such may be his gospel, such also his faithful, and such his church, and that the lips may have suitable lettuce and the lid may be worthy of the dish.—Martin Luther, Assertio Omnium Articulorum M. Lutheri per Bullam Leonis X. Novissimam Damnatorum (Assertion of all the articles of M. Luther condemned by the latest Bull of Leo X), article 27, Weimar edition of Luther's Works, vol. 7, pp. 131, 132 (a point-by-point exposition of his position, written Dec. 1, 1520, in response to requests for a fuller treatment than that given in his Adversus execrabilem Antichristi Bullam, and Wider die Bulle des Endchrists).William Tyndale, translator of the Bible into English, martyr:And ye, in putting them [the departed souls] in heaven, hell, and purgatory, destroy the arguments wherewith Christ and Paul prove the resurrection.... And again, if the souls be in heaven, tell me why they be not in as good case as the angels be? And then what cause is there of the resurrection?—William Tyndale, An Answer to Sir Thomas More's Dialogue (Parker's 1850 reprint), bk. 4, ch. 4, pp. 180, 181.Tyndale went to the heart of the issue:The true faith putteth [setteth forth] the resurrection, which we be warned to look for every hour. The heathen philosophers, denying that, did put [set forth] that the souls did ever live. And the pope joineth the spiritual doctrine of Christ and the fleshly doctrine of philosophers together; things so contrary that they cannot agree, no more than the Spirit and the flesh do in a Christian man. And because the fleshly-minded pope consenteth unto heathen doctrine, therefore he corrupteth the Scripture to stablish it.—lbid., p. 180.Tyndale in a sarcastic vein:"Nay, Paul, thou art unlearned; go to Master More, and learn a new way. We be not most miserable, though we rise not again; for our souls go to heaven as soon as we be dead, and are there in as great joy as Christ that is risen again." And I marvel that Paul had not comforted the Thessalonians with that doctrine, if he had wist [known] it, that the souls of their dead had been in joy; as he did with the resurrection, that their dead should rise again. If the souls be in heaven, in as great glory as the angels, after your doctrine, shew me what cause should be of the resurrection)—Ibid.LEO X 1513-1521, The Human Soul (against the Neo-Aristotelians)1[From the Bull "Apostolici Regiminis" (Session VIII), Dec. 19, 1513]Since in our days (and we painfully bring this up) the sower of cockle, ancient enemy of the human race, has dared to disseminate and advance in the field of the Lord a number of pernicious errors, always rejected by the faithful, especially concerning the nature of the rational soul, namely, that it is mortal, or one in all men, and some rashly philosophizing affirmed that this is true at least according to philosophy, in our desire to offer suitable remedies against a plague of this kind, with the approval of this holy Council, we condemn and reject all who assert that the intellectual soul is mortal, or is one in all men, and those who cast doubt on these truths, since it [the soul] is not only truly in itself and essentially the form of the human body, as was defined in the canon of Pope. End QuotesJake
     
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