False Teachers claim the Gog and Magog war is close

[afaithfulone4u]

Trekson: You were the one who claimed it had been "proven." Moreover, I never claimed that "all" of Ezekiel is chronological from chapter 1 to chapter 48. Everyone understands that the OT prophets could bounce around in time throughout their books - they could even do so in a single chapter and/or verse. At the same time there are chapter after chapter devoted to one subject as well...With the above being said, I personally do not find Ezekiel hard to read. The early part of his book is written against the rebellious Israel of his day; the middle portions of his book seem to be written against the various contemporaneous nations of his day and how they interacted with Israel, and chapter 37 on picks up with the modern state of Israel which, according to Ezekiel, would be "reborn in a single day." If, then, Ezekiel chapter 37 picks up with the eschatological rebirth of the nation of Israel, an event which took place in 1948, then it is - and logical - to see chapters 38 and 39 - the infamous War of Gog and MaGog - as the next step in Ezekiel's chronology of eschatological events. Moreover, when you take Ezekiel's 10 kings and place them with Daniel's 4th empire and John's "ten kings" then, for me, it becomes obvious that all three men are speaking about the same eschatological entity?...After the war of gog and magog Ezekiel immediately turns his attention to the third Jewish Temple - chapters 40, 41 and 42. There needs to be a third Jewish Temple for the Antichrist to perform the "abomination that cause desolation act" spoken of by our Lord and Daniel. It becomes obvious to me, then, that Ezekiel's Temple is, indeed, the same Temple the Antichrist will desecrate. Thus, chapters 40, 41 and 42 are in chronological order since they immediately follow the War of Gog and Magog which immediately follows the rebirth of the modern state of Israel. Ezekiel's next chapter, chapter 43, sees the glory of the Lord returning to the Temple. I see this being chronological as well. It is left to other prophets to fill in the gap from the rebuilding of Ezekiel's third Temple and the time the glory of the Lord returns to that same Temple, i.e., Daniel's 70th Week, the Great Tribulation Period and the Day of the Lord's Wrath...But when taken as a whole - these prophet's visions fit in quite nicely with Ezekiel's vision...My whole point being that I see no logical reason to believe that, in these few chapters, Ezekiel found it necessary to jump around by literary thousands of years as you propose...Remember Occman's Razor - which states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected...I see too many assumptions - even guesses - in your interpretation over mine...

Richard Neal - author Kingdom of the Antichrist


Apologies aren't really necessary my friend - just remember that words have power, so chose them wisely and carefully...I understand - and agree with you when you write "We are the temple that is being built that Christ comes for, being his body the living stones, the one built not by man's hands but God." But, if I may say so, you make the same mistake that so many other Christians do when they are attempting to interpret Scripture, and that is you view the world - and thus eschatology - through the eyes of a Christian. In other words, you are right in that I doubt there is a single Christian in the world that sees or feels the need for a third Jewish Temple in Jerusalem. But the Jews are not Christians, nor do they see the world and eschatology through Christian eyes. For them - they need a third Temple. Muslims see no need for a Temple either - but then they don't see the world and eschatology through Christian eyes either...The Jews demand a third Temple - and they will get it. The muslim wants to deny the Jew his Temple. These two groups of people, then, with their strange non-christian world views and eschatological hopes and anticipations will force Armageddon on to the world...It isn't the Christian world that will cause Daniel's 70th Week or the Great Tribulation Period. These eschatological time periods are forced onto the world - and the Christians - by two heretical groups of people, the Jews and the muslims. That is the whole point of end time prophecy - It is forced on the Christian, not caused by the Christian...So you must learn to read and interpret end time prophecy, not so much through Christian eyes, but through the eyes of rabbinic Judaism and radical Islam. This means you must do what very few Christian theologians have ever done - study Islam and Rabbinic Judaism as I have. Once you understand those two heresies, their origins and histories, then it becomes much easier to understand what the Holy Spirit is trying to tell the Church with all His many eschatological prophecies...I hope that makes sense...

Richard Neal

Greetings Richard,
Thank you for your input and yes words do have impact.
But I think you have judged me wrong as I have a different understanding altogether when it comes to any prophecy being fulfilled.
I do not give credit to any one or thing when it comes to prophecy coming to pass but God who wrote all prophecy's and is the one who is bringing them to pass, not Jews, not Muslim's or Christian's. All events rather wars or natural disasters or rampid disease are according to God's will and in His timing to serve His purposes.

He uses men for His plans rather it be for judgment or rewarding those whom He feels has reaped it. Most do not even realize that everything as it is written in the Bible is for God's people to understand and be prepared for not be in fear of. God is not a mind reader, yet He knows the hearts of men, nor a fortune teller as if He can just see the future... He is the Author and Finisher of our faith and His Word.. He does not tell the furture... He creates IT!
So, you see, I do not look at things from a Christian view nor man's, but by what the Spirit reveals to me or from other's whom I can discern they too have been taught by the Spirit. Know what I mean?
Blessings

 

[veteran]

It is very easy to know that the Ezekiel 38 & 39 chapters about Gog and Magog is for the last day of this present world, when Christ returns on the last trump. Reason is, and it's a big one, the latter part of those chapters speaking of Israel's gathering. Now just what in the world would Israel be gathered for at the END of Christ's future thousand years reign? That's to occur at His second coming.

There's also direct links with events in those chapters with the Armageddon of Rev.16 and Christ's coming in Rev.19.

As for history connections, the list of nations given in Ezekiel 38 has been forming up in OUR times today, and it's almost complete today.

So if the Ezek.38-39 Gog Magog event is for after... Christ's 1,000 years reign, then how is it those Ezekiel chapters reveal the time of Israel's gathering back to the holy lands?

Why... is this false teaching about the Ezekiel 38 & 39 events being for after Christ's future Milennium making rounds today???

My Opinion:
1. to get brethren away... from looking at the nation alignment on that list in Ezek.38 and comparing it with events today.
2. to deny the final battle for this present world that Christ is coming to fight on earth; afterall, do you think Satan's servants here on earth even like that idea?
3. to hide certain pointers in those Ezek.38 & 39 chapters that show where that Israel is today, to include the western Christian nations, and not just the nation state in the middleast today.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, Your words: "
Why... is this false teaching about the Ezekiel 38 & 39 events being for after Christ's future Milennium making rounds today???

My Opinion:
1. to get brethren away... from looking at the nation alignment on that list in Ezek.38 and comparing it with events today.
2. to deny the final battle for this present world that Christ is coming to fight on earth; afterall, do you think Satan's servants here on earth even like that idea?
3. to hide certain pointers in those Ezek.38 & 39 chapters that show where that Israel is today, to include the western Christian nations, and not just the nation state in the middleast today."

Is it a false teaching or is your interpretation a false teaching? Why do we question the preconceived doctrines of men?

1. A desire to know the truth even if it contradicts what we had previously believed.
2. The realization that near time fulfillments should be considered before far time applications.
3. There is usually more than one viable way to interpret prophetic scriptures.
4. No one person is meant to have all understanding. It's a "group" effort that they who are drawn to this topic of the body of Christ undertakes.

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, Your words: "
Why... is this false teaching about the Ezekiel 38 & 39 events being for after Christ's future Milennium making rounds today???

My Opinion:
1. to get brethren away... from looking at the nation alignment on that list in Ezek.38 and comparing it with events today.
2. to deny the final battle for this present world that Christ is coming to fight on earth; afterall, do you think Satan's servants here on earth even like that idea?
3. to hide certain pointers in those Ezek.38 & 39 chapters that show where that Israel is today, to include the western Christian nations, and not just the nation state in the middleast today."

Is it a false teaching or is your interpretation a false teaching? Why do we question the preconceived doctrines of men?

1. A desire to know the truth even if it contradicts what we had previously believed.
2. The realization that near time fulfillments should be considered before far time applications.
3. There is usually more than one viable way to interpret prophetic scriptures.
4. No one person is meant to have all understanding. It's a "group" effort that they who are drawn to this topic of the body of Christ undertakes.

Your simply following a doctrine originating from men, and not really heeding the Ezekiel Scripture as written. It's easy to prove by the Scripture itself. I love line upon line Bible study and teaching by the way...

Ezek 38:14-23
14 Therefore, son of man, prophesy and say unto Gog, Thus saith the Lord GOD; In that day when My people of Israel dwelleth safely, shalt thou not know it?
15 And thou shalt come from thy place out of the north parts, thou, and many people with thee, all of them riding upon horses, a great company, and a mighty army:
16 And thou shalt come up against My people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against My land, that the heathen may know Me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.

That great army coming upon Israel out of the north parts is a prophecy covered in Daniel 11 about the king of the north. That's what latter days is meant, not after Christ's Milennium. When Christ Jesus returns, the heathen will then 'know' Him, everyone during Christ's Millenium will know The LORD, including the wicked that survive this event on the day of Christ's return. It's this event God is going to do to get all people's attention on earth at the day of Christ's return.


Ezek.38:17 Thus saith the Lord GOD; Art thou he of whom I have spoken in old time by My servants the prophets of Israel, which prophesied in those days many years that I would bring thee against them?

What prophecies are those He speaks of that He gave His OT prophets to speak of concerning this event? It's the event like Zephaniah 3:8...

Zeph 3:8
8 Therefore wait ye upon Me, saith the LORD, until the day that I rise up to the prey: for My determination is to gather the nations, that I may assemble the kingdoms, to pour upon them Mine indignation, even all My fierce anger: for all the earth shall be devoured with the fire of My jealousy.
(KJV)

And of Joel 3...

Joel 3:1-2
1 For, behold, in those days, and in that time, when I shall bring again the captivity of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations, and will bring them down into the valley of Jehoshaphat, and will plead with them there for My people and for My heritage Israel, whom they have scattered among the nations, and parted My land.
(KJV)

Joel 3:9-14
9 Proclaim ye this among the Gentiles; Prepare war, wake up the mighty men, let all the men of war draw near; let them come up:
10 Beat your plowshares into swords, and your pruninghooks into spears: let the weak say, I am strong.
11 Assemble yourselves, and come, all ye heathen, and gather yourselves together round about: thither cause Thy mighty ones to come down, O LORD.
12 Let the heathen be wakened, and come up to the valley of Jehoshaphat: for there will I sit to judge all the heathen round about.
13 Put ye in the sickle, for the harvest is ripe: come, get you down; for the press is full, the fats overflow; for their wickedness is great.
14 Multitudes, multitudes in the valley of decision: for the day of the LORD is near in the valley of decision.
(KJV)

I could keep going with those OT examples God gave about this event for the day of Christ's coming, which is that "day of the LORD" per the Apostles also (like 1 Thess.5 and 2 Pet.3:10, and 2 Thess.2:1-2). There's that same putting in the sickle idea mentioned with Christ's return in Rev.14 & 18 & 19, all pointing to the day of Christ's return, not after His Millenium reign.


Ezek.38:18 And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that My fury shall come up in My face.
19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;

That is when God will pour out His cup of wrath on the nations, on the day of Christ's coming to end this present world time.


Ezek.38:20 So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at My presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.
21 And I will call for a sword against him throughout all My mountains, saith the Lord GOD: every man's sword shall be against his brother.
22 And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.
23 Thus will I magnify Myself, and sanctify Myself; and I will be known in the eyes of many nations, and they shall know that I am the LORD.
(KJV)

Those events of every wall falling to the ground, the mountains thrown down, and the steep places falling at His Presence are "day of the Lord" events, not post-Milennium events. There are many Scriptures in both the OT and NT Books to show that timing also.


Ezek 39:1-8
1 Therefore, thou son of man, prophesy against Gog, and say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
2 And I will turn thee back, and leave but the sixth part of thee, and will cause thee to come up from the north parts, and will bring thee upon the mountains of Israel:

With the destruction of the Gog and Magog in Rev.20 after Christ's Millennium reign, they ALL... are destroyed by God's consuming fire. But here, notice God says He will leave a 6th part of these for this event on the day of Christ's return. We're given a direct parallel to those 1/6th that are left in Zech.14 also.

The following Scripture is for after... Christ's future return; it is Millennium timing. It's about that 6th part of Gog and Magog that will be left right after Christ's return...

Zech 14:16-19
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
(KJV)



Ezek.:39:3 And I will smite thy bow out of thy left hand, and will cause thine arrows to fall out of thy right hand.
4 Thou shalt fall upon the mountains of Israel, thou, and all thy bands, and the people that is with thee: I will give thee unto the ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured.
5 Thou shalt fall upon the open field: for I have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD.

That event is paralleled in Rev.19:17 about the supper of The Great God. God compares that destruction of 5/6ths of that Gog and Magog army on the "day of the Lord" when Christ returns as His great sacrifice (see Ezek.39:17).


Ezek.39:6 And I will send a fire on Magog, and among them that dwell carelessly in the isles: and they shall know that I am the LORD.

This fire sent in the isles is about God's consuming fire that will burn the elements of man's works off this earth at Christ's coming (a la 2 Peter 3:10 on the "day of the Lord"). That is the time of God's wrath poured out on the last day of this present world when Jesus returns, and it will usher us all into Christ's Milennium reign. If this event were meant for after... Christ's Milennium reign, then how is it these that dwell carelessly in the isles don't yet know Him? Everyone shall know who The LORD of hosts is during His Millennium reign, and that is written (Jer.31:34; Isaiah 11:9; Zech.14:8-9; Rev.15:4).


Ezek.39:7 So will I make My holy name known in the midst of My people Israel; and I will not let them pollute My holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.
8 Behold, it is come, and it is done, saith the Lord GOD; this is the day whereof I have spoken.
(KJV)

Once again, the day of Christ's return is that day God speaks of there. That is the day of His vengeance upon all the wicked of this present world time.


Below in Ezek.39 is where God begins speaking of the gathering of His remnant of the "house of Israel" and the sons of Jacob, back to their original inheritances that lets us know this Gog and Magog destruction is for the time of Christ's return...

Ezek 39:21-29
21 And I will set My glory among the heathen, and all the heathen shall see My judgment that I have executed, and My hand that I have laid upon them.

Since the Gog and Magog destruction of Rev.20 is after Christ's Millennium reign, there will be none of them left for that one. But here once again we see with this one at Christ's return, these left will see His judgment with 1/6th of them surviving to go through Christ's Milennium reign. More proof that this Ezek.38-39 event is for the end of today's present world, not at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign of Rev.20.


Ezek.39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

This "house of Israel" after Solomon's days is put only for the northern ten tribes of Israel that lost their heritage and knowledge as part of literal Israel (see 1 Kings 11 forward). So God is specifically speaking of the scattered ten tribes here, those of them that think they are Gentiles but are not, but have a heritage as old Israel. It is from that day forward when God will wake them up and show them they were of Israel all along. Many today will be surprised at that, of both Jews and Gentiles.


Ezek.39:23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against Me, therefore hid I My face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid My face from them.

Not only will those lost of the ten tribes be awakened to know this, but the nations will also then understand it, and recognize it. This is because on that day Christ Jesus will be revealed to all peoples and nations on earth. No more debates or mystery about Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ at that point.


Ezek.39:25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for My holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against Me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, Which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide My face any more from them: for I have poured out My Spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.
(KJV)

That gathering is about the time of Christ's second coming, NOT... after His Millennium reign. Per other Scripture like Paul's Rom.11 reference to all Israel being saved, this is it. This will not detract from Christ's gathering of the believing remnant of Israel along with believing Gentiels to Him specifically. Unbelieving Israel will be gathered too, but will have their place in the "outer darkness" with the wicked of the nations throughout Christ's Milennium reign.

 

[tgwprophet]

False Teachers claim the Gog and Magog war is close


So, let me get this straight...afaithfulone4uhttp://www.christianityboard.com/user/9167-afaithfulone4u/ The war of Gog and MaGog takes place after Armageddon??? After all the non-christian Russian and Iranians are sent to hell? So this war will be an invasion of what 74 people All christians that are.. well non-believing christians that snuck through the first judgement? How about those that are released from Hell after the thousand years... Well according to the Bible I have not read of " people " being released after the 1000 years. So, lets say they are released... why do you think they will achieve any political status or power in their own land? Will the Christians not understand from where these people came and yet give them authorrity and power? I would go out on a limb here, but I can see you are already dangling.

 

[veteran]

False Teachers claim the Gog and Magog war is close


So, let me get this straight...afaithfulone4u The war of Gog and MaGog takes place after Armageddon??? After all the non-christian Russian and Iranians are sent to hell? So this war will be an invasion of what 74 people All christians that are.. well non-believing christians that snuck through the first judgement? How about those that are released from Hell after the thousand years... Well according to the Bible I have not read of " people " being released after the 1000 years. So, lets say they are released... why do you think they will achieve any political status or power in their own land? Will the Christians not understand from where these people came and yet give them authorrity and power? I would go out on a limb here, but I can see you are already dangling.

Nah, he's just making a false statement to try and make anyone who sees the Gog/Magog event for the time of Christ's second coming as wrong.

Line upon line coverage of the Ezekiel 38 & 39 chapters easily proves him wrong though. He probably got his view from man anyway, because he obviously did not take the time read through those Ezek.38 & 39 chapters before he created this thread.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Vet, I agree about Ez. 39, however there is nothing in Ez. 38 or Zech. 14 that can't also be attributed to the end of the millennium. Things aren't going to be all that different, politically and spiritually speaking, imo.

 

[Richard Neal]

Sorry Richard, Your words: "As a previous post stated, when Ezekiel penned his book "chapters and verses were not yet invented." So one can feel safe if he looked at chapters 37 (the dry bones), 38 and 39 (Gog and MaGog), 40, 41, 42 (the 3rd Temple) and 43, 44, 45, 46, 47 and 48 (the Glory of the Lord Returns to the Temple and the Millennium Reign) as one long chronological prophecy because that was obviously - and logically - Ezekiel's intent."

But this view has been proven wrong over and over. The only prophet that would come close to one long chronological prophecy would be John in Christ's Revelation. Ez. 40+ is not purposely about a third temple and EZ. 38 is certainly not critical to any pre-mill theory. This view is about as opposite to the reality of OT prophets as you can get.

The two book hypothesis you refer to has been proven inadequate at best. Like many of the hypothesis' that came out of the Tübingen school in the 1800s...See http://www.icr.org/article/7155/ The Jewish scholars who copied the Septuagint saw it as one long prophecy, as did the Masoretic scribes of the 7th through 11th centuries...But you know better - Please, enlighten me with some real facts...

 

[veteran]

Hi Vet, I agree about Ez. 39, however there is nothing in Ez. 38 or Zech. 14 that can't also be attributed to the end of the millennium. Things aren't going to be all that different, politically and spiritually speaking, imo.

Similar naming convention for Satan's followers, that's all. The Gog/Magog attempts at the end of Christ's future Milennium reign will be even less effective than the one to occur at Christ's second coming.