Favourite Church Father?
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I liked reading Max Lucado and Adrian Plass but I don't think you would necessarily call them 'Church Fathers'. Men like Smith Wigglesworth and George Muller and of course Billy Graham are the ones that immediately come to mind.
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
I haven't read enough of them to become particularly "attached" to them, though I'm deeply indebted to them and do appreciate what I have read and the effort they put into their writings. I was particularly impressed with Augustine's City of God, which I read quite a long time ago. Amazing work! He seems to have touched on every philosophical concern that became big later on in Western philosophy. And he provided a major apologetic foundation for the Christian Gospel, along with personal experience in the life of the Spirit.
Wrangler
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1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
John Wesley, because he fought Calvinism and brought holiness back to Christ's Church. He is also depicted in Scripture and so is John Calvin.
Revelation 3:
“And to the angel of the church in Sardis write,
‘These things says He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars: “I know your works, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die, for I have not found your works perfect before God. 3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you. 4 You have a few names even in Sardis who have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 He who overcomes shall be clothed in white garments, and I will not blot out his name from the Book of Life; but I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels.
Wrangler
Well-Known Member
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Calvin is most definitely *not* mentioned in that passage! Nor is he "depicted." You apparently don't realize this, but Calvinist churches tended to remain more aligned with doctrinally-orthodox positions than Arminian churches.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Do you believe we can be sinless in this lifetime? Or do you believe that we can't be sinless until we receive our new bodies?
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
It is wrong, in my mind, to teach that we can be sinless before the resurrection. We are to live in righteousness and not worry about the fact we are imperfect. We *overcome* sin with Christ's righteousness.
I believe that because we are covered in the blood of Jesus God no longer sees our sin as our sinful natures have been replaced with spiritual ones and we are new creations if we are in Christ.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Randy, It would be wrong to preach immediate perfection, but Jesus takes away our lawless sin from our nature immediately, making us both righteous and sinless of sins unto death, giving us eternal life. What is left are "sins not unto death." IOW immature fruit of the Spirit. 2 Peter 1:5-11 shows the steps to perfection - never stumbling. And Jesus is the Author and Finisher of both types of sin. Recently I found myself not reacting like I used to. I did nothing myself to grow in that fruit. All I did was abide in Jesus. Randy, I know you well enough to know you like to read the Bible. I've been devouring it lately like I did when I was first baptized in the Holy Spirit 47 years ago. Jesus is coming very soon. Probably about 5 years left to grow to maturity our remaining fruit to holiness and perfection that Jesus promised.
2 Peter 1:5-11
5 But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. 8 For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. 10 Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; 11 for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Another Scripture is 1 John 1:7
7 But if we walk in the light as He is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ His Son cleanses us from all sin.
As you see, Jesus cleanses us from those sins not unto death.
Revelation 22:11 shows those bound to heaven are righteous or holy. Sinlessness is righteous. Holiness is perfection.
Who told you it is wrong to preach what Jesus does in us? JC? Or jc?
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Sorry Pearl but that is a man-made doctrine that is not about Jesus and the power of the gospel. The Father is not blinded by the blood of Jesus. Jesus blood does not cover our sins, it TAKES AWAY our sin out of our very nature called the old man. Romans 6:5-7.
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Randy Kluth
Well-Known Member
Sometimes I think sanctification conversation is just a matter of "splitting hairs." We all should know how good or bad we are on a daily basis. Some have weaknesses in some areas, some in others. We know we're going to face God. So we do the best we can.
As for me, I know I can be rude and irritating, complaining and angry. And so, I know I'm not even close to perfect. But this doesn't stop me from looking to the perfect Christ, whose Spirit is perfect.
When I abide in Christ, I'm helped by his perfection. This enables me to "bear fruit," as you say. Beyond this, I don't get too deep into it.
If we get too negative, we will drag ourselves down and become fixated on ourselves, get into negativity, and try too hard to fix ourselves. If we get too positive, we will ignore how others really perceive us, as rationalizers, as deaf to criticism, as over-confident in things we shouldn't get so cocky about.
But we share an interest in holiness, and dying to ourselves, living by the Spirit. It is a daily thing. I doubt I'll get too over-confident, because I fall short *every day!*
Hobie
Well-Known Member
Well, he tended to be very violent in his 'healing' and punched, and slapped and some say kicked people to get the 'unclean spirit' illness out vexing them. Not a good way to do it in my thinking..
1stCenturyLady
Well-Known Member
Now that I've heard about. But you can't deny he had extreme faith. He brought his wife back to life so many times, even out of her coffin that she had to tell him to stop. She wanted to stay in heaven.
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