Thanks for your reply. However..... "Not die", in John 6:50 has a counterpart; something it is compared to in contrast. And what is that? "Live forever". No matter what opinion you may give concerning the death mentioned in that verse, it has to mean something other than "live forever". Unfortunately, it does not. In your version, it means exactly to also live forever. So you are saying that in both cases the fate is to live forever. To be in everlasting conscious torment, one must have everlasting life. To be in forever conscious torment, one must be alive forever. No, my friend, you are dancing around that which is obvious. Living forever is only one of the two alternatives given in that context, not both.shturt678 said:
Fear of HELL
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Thank you for your response and caring!williemac said:
Not so successfully refuted on this one my brother. Let's take another look at Jn.6:50 contextually. "and not die." contextually refers to spiritual and eternal death in the lake of fire forever and ever tormented. This death they who spurn the Bread of Life fail to escape. Note the strong contrast in the two verses 49 and 50: "and they died" - "and (shall) not die."
Old Jack
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Choir Loft
You don't conquer the fear. You embrace it. The world does not know this fear and rejects even the mention of it.Madad21 said:
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."
- Prov. 9:10
Leprosy is a terrible disease. It's primary effect is to deaden the nerves. One's first inkling that one has the disease is to observe damage to one's extremities. Damage and injury is caused by lack of pain and the fear of it. The afflicted cannot feel pain and as a result are more prone to injury as well as the resulting infections that healthy individuals do not suffer.
Fear of pain keeps an adult healthy. It can even create wisdom in a fool. The fear of pain is good because it reminds us that we are part of the world and not all of it.
As Christians our CONFIDENCE is in the blood of Christ, of the lamb that was slain, and NOT in ourselves. In ourselves we suffer fear. In our spirit we enjoy confidence that Jesus will save us. This confidence is also expressed as 'joy'. It's not insane laughter and it's not a smug smile that we are sure of, it's the understanding and the faith that our salvation is assured. It is a sign that we live in two worlds - the world of the flesh and the world of the spirit. Those who live in the flesh only do not know this...
"For it is time for judgment to begin with God's household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God?"
- 1 Peter 4:17
Yet there is the possibility of stumbling in the world. Everyone does. Stumbling can result in devastating sin if the Spirit of Salvation does not step in immediately to correct the behavior. Healthy fear, therefore, in the mind of the Christian is the certainty that God will judge budding sin in the church before He judges it in the world.
Therefore it is wise to know that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, is our strength and our sanity. We do not go about in the world believing that the world will conform itself to us. Neither do we believe that at the end of the day God is concerned with nothing more than that a good time will have been had by all.
God is concerned over weightier matters - the salvation of an eternal soul. If God is willing to die to save us, should we not also be willing to embrace the fear of judgement of sin in our own lives here on earth - YES EVEN TO EMBRACE IT? In this is the sanctification of our souls insured.
It will also keep us from too much conceit. Fear teaches us that we are not in charge of things - God is. May His wise and Holy name be praised.
and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...
How in the world did you manage to reverse the meaning? Contextually, "not die" applies to those who will live forever. Think with me. If "live forever" means "not die", as Jesus said, then "not live forever" would mean "die". So your version of dying is to live forever in torment. Face it. You have every intention here of denying what is being said by insisting that those who don't live forever with Jesus will in fact live forever without Him. This means that everyone will live forever in different locations. You have mentioned the context. I suggest you read it again and show me how it says that everyone will live forever.shturt678 said:
For convenience, here is the text: John 6:50,51 (NKJ)
This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”
You actually have not shown that contextually it means everlasting conscious torment as you say. For that to be the case, the context would need to mention it. But it doesn't. The only thing you have shown is that you feel it means what you have already concluded. This is not how to extract meaning from context, my friend.
In fairness, I will acknowledge your mention of vs.49. Jesus talks of those who are dead. These would be dead in the flesh only. Their souls are indeed alive even now. But no mention of the lake of fire in the context. That is a future event. However, why not go back two more verses? " Most assuredly I say to you, he who believes in Me, has everlasting life" . Again, you are saying that everyone has everlasting life, even those who do not believe. Everlasting conscious torment requires ever-lasting life.
The post that you are thanking, mentions this: "God is concerned over weightier matters - the salvation of an eternal soul." This is something I have been addressing on this thread. There is no such thing in humanity as an eternal soul, until one is born again. To add to my previous post, I would like to mention John 11:25,26. Here, Jesus says " I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me , though he may die, he shall live. And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die...."Madad21 said:
Here, Jesus talks of two types of death. The fact is, everyone who lived then has died physically. This is inevitable for all believers in this age. But Jesus seems to contradict this in the next breath by claiming that believers would never die. Obviously He is speaking of the soul. The soul of the believer will never die. However, if the soul of the unbeliever also shall never die, then this renders the promise to be a bit deceiving.
As well, concerning sin, what we ought to fear is not judgment, as in condemnation, but rather chastening. In John 5:24, Jesus says this:
"Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death to life."
It is the fine print that comes at us from all sides that cause people to be double minded and unsure as to the genuineness of things like this promise from Jesus. I can see from many replies and posts and from many sermons over the years that for some, it all seems a bit to easy to merely believe a promise in order to live forever. No wonder there is so much fear of hell.
But the fact is, mankind was stuck in a situation that he could not overcome or change, so God took matters into His own hands and took care of the issue for us. In Rom.5:15-19, we can read that it is the obedience and righteousness of One Man, Jesus, by which we are given the free gift of life. Yes, it is called a free gift. What part of "free" is so hard for some people to accept? We already know that God justifies the ungodly. Read it in Rom.4:4,5:
" Now to him who works, the wages are not counted as grace but as debt. But to him who does not work but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness". So, here we find God justifying the ungodly, but we also hear many preaching that if a believer behaves ungodly, he can possibly lose his justification. What? How fickle is that? Rather, bad behavior will be met with correction, called chastening. Jesus said " all whom I love I rebuke and chasten". I think we need to leave things in their proper compartment. Justification is by faith. It is not through good behavior.
As long as we are beguiled into setting grace aside and thinking that we must be given life by way of a debt paid by God, people will go on in fear and in doubt and in never knowing for sure if they are good with God. The only way we do not have assurance is if salvation is our work and not His. Where is our confidence going to be? Read about the man who had it in the wrong place in Luke 18:10-14.
How can a person call themselves "Christian" and "never done a lot of research into the subject" of "hell", examining Hebrew and Greek words as well as comparing Scripture with Scripture to attain to an accurate understanding ? And it need be noted that Jesus said that " a faithful and discreet slave" would provide "meat in due season" or accurate spiritual food (Matt 24:45-47), explaining what the Bible really teaches, rather than the "crumbs" (KJV) that the churches gives out.(Luke 16:19-21)
With that said, let's establish what the "hell" of the Bible as opposed to the doctrine of "hellfire" that the churches espouse. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word sheol is used that means mankind's common grave. For example, after Jacob had been deceived into thinking that his son Joseph had died, Genesis 37 says: "And all his sons and all his daughters kept rising up to comfort him, but he kept refusing to take comfort and saying: “For I shall go down mourning to my son into She´ol ! ("grave", KJV)” And his father continued weeping for him."(Gen 37:35, New World Translation)
Yet at Deuteronomy 32:22, the King James Bible reads: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Heb. sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
And at 2 Samuel 22:6, the KJV reads of David: "The sorrows of hell (Heb. sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me." And at Job 26:6, the KJV reads of Job's reply to his so-called friends: "Hell (Heb. sheol) is naked before him (Jehovah God), and destruction hath no covering." A modern English translations reads: "The Grave is naked in front of God, and the place of destruction lies uncovered."(New World Translation)
At this point, there is an inconsistent rendering of the King James Bible, causing confusion as to the meaning of sheol. This is like a person who keeps changing what he wants when ordering a meal, not sure of anything. The waiter would become frustrated, to say the least ! It is like a father who exasperates his children by constantly changing his set of standards.(Eph 6:4; Col 3:21)
There is one Scripture in Psalms whereby the apostle Peter used it concerning Christ Jesus, that provides a synonymous word in Greek, that says: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(Ps 16:10, KJV) At Acts 2:31, Peter tells the Jews on the day of Pentecost: "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Greek hades), neither his flesh did see corruption."(KJV)
But if the belief that "hell" is for the unrepentant as a place of eternal torment, then why was Jesus there ? Obviously, both the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades does not mean eternal torment in a "fiery hell", but rather mankind's common grave, to which the vast majority of dead mankind are at, and in which Jesus was in the Bible "hell" for parts of three days.(Matt 12:39, 40)
And because Jesus used the expression of "fire" in his teaching in conjunction with Gehenna to show that a rebellious person against the Father, Jehovah God's rulership, will everlastingly die, and that the KJV supplanted the Greek word Gehenna with either "hell" or "hellfire" (as at Matt 5:22, 29, 30 [KJV uses "hell fire" in vs 22, but "hell" in vs 29, 30 for the same word Gehenna, showing inconsistency again]), this has led many to a wrong conclusion, and believing a lie.
That "hell" is not a place of "fiery torment" and releases it "prisoners"can be seen at Revelation 20. Here the apostle John sees that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(Rev 20:13, KJV)
And then what happens to the Bible "hell" ? The next verse says: "And death and hell (Greek hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."(Rev 20:14, KJV) Thus, "hell" is itself destroyed by being cast into "the second death", which is the same as Gehenna, everlasting destruction.
Paul wrote concerning Adamic death: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."(1 Cor 15:26, KJV) Hence, once sheol and hades, mankind's common grave is emptied of all who are there, then Adamic death will disappear forever, never to have mastery over mankind again.(Rom 5:12)
With that said, let's establish what the "hell" of the Bible as opposed to the doctrine of "hellfire" that the churches espouse. In the Hebrew Scriptures, the word sheol is used that means mankind's common grave. For example, after Jacob had been deceived into thinking that his son Joseph had died, Genesis 37 says: "And all his sons and all his daughters kept rising up to comfort him, but he kept refusing to take comfort and saying: “For I shall go down mourning to my son into She´ol ! ("grave", KJV)” And his father continued weeping for him."(Gen 37:35, New World Translation)
Yet at Deuteronomy 32:22, the King James Bible reads: "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell (Heb. sheol), and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains."
And at 2 Samuel 22:6, the KJV reads of David: "The sorrows of hell (Heb. sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me." And at Job 26:6, the KJV reads of Job's reply to his so-called friends: "Hell (Heb. sheol) is naked before him (Jehovah God), and destruction hath no covering." A modern English translations reads: "The Grave is naked in front of God, and the place of destruction lies uncovered."(New World Translation)
At this point, there is an inconsistent rendering of the King James Bible, causing confusion as to the meaning of sheol. This is like a person who keeps changing what he wants when ordering a meal, not sure of anything. The waiter would become frustrated, to say the least ! It is like a father who exasperates his children by constantly changing his set of standards.(Eph 6:4; Col 3:21)
There is one Scripture in Psalms whereby the apostle Peter used it concerning Christ Jesus, that provides a synonymous word in Greek, that says: "For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell (Heb. sheol); neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption."(Ps 16:10, KJV) At Acts 2:31, Peter tells the Jews on the day of Pentecost: "He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell (Greek hades), neither his flesh did see corruption."(KJV)
But if the belief that "hell" is for the unrepentant as a place of eternal torment, then why was Jesus there ? Obviously, both the Hebrew word sheol and the Greek word hades does not mean eternal torment in a "fiery hell", but rather mankind's common grave, to which the vast majority of dead mankind are at, and in which Jesus was in the Bible "hell" for parts of three days.(Matt 12:39, 40)
And because Jesus used the expression of "fire" in his teaching in conjunction with Gehenna to show that a rebellious person against the Father, Jehovah God's rulership, will everlastingly die, and that the KJV supplanted the Greek word Gehenna with either "hell" or "hellfire" (as at Matt 5:22, 29, 30 [KJV uses "hell fire" in vs 22, but "hell" in vs 29, 30 for the same word Gehenna, showing inconsistency again]), this has led many to a wrong conclusion, and believing a lie.
That "hell" is not a place of "fiery torment" and releases it "prisoners"can be seen at Revelation 20. Here the apostle John sees that "the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell (Greek hades) delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works."(Rev 20:13, KJV)
And then what happens to the Bible "hell" ? The next verse says: "And death and hell (Greek hades) were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."(Rev 20:14, KJV) Thus, "hell" is itself destroyed by being cast into "the second death", which is the same as Gehenna, everlasting destruction.
Paul wrote concerning Adamic death: "The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death."(1 Cor 15:26, KJV) Hence, once sheol and hades, mankind's common grave is emptied of all who are there, then Adamic death will disappear forever, never to have mastery over mankind again.(Rom 5:12)
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