Finding God's Secret Place

[Eccl.12:13]

We see dating in Matthew 24:34, putting it around 70AD.

So let me ask you....If you believe the generation spoken of was the generation that was there when Jesus was there, when did all of the events mentioned before verse 34 take place?

When was the abomination placed in the temple?
When was there a time so bad that there was not a time like it before, nor to that time, nor shall there ever be a time like it again?
When did anyone see the Son of Man come as lightning that shines from the east to the west?
When did anyone see the Son of Man come in the clouds with trumpets and angels and His elect?

Just when did ALL of these things happen?


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[TexUs]

When was the abomination placed in the temple?

You'd like to read into this "the antichrist", right? This passage doesn't support an antichrist. The context of the text is also abundantly clear it refers to the temple they were walking in, not some future temple. This said... You need to remember that Matthew was speaking to the Jews. Luke was to the Gentiles. So let us look at Luke's parallel passage to us Gentiles, shall we? Perhaps it'll clarify things.
Luke 21:20, "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near."
We learn a couple things from this.
1) It's Jerusalem to be ruined, not necessarily the temple
2) We now learn what the desolation is: the armies.


So now, the abomination of desolation makes more sense. It's an army that will surround and desolate Jerusalem.


Again, this was fulfilled in 70AD by the Roman armies under Nero.


We see in both Paul's writings as well as history (Augustine, for one) that Rome was highly pagan and filled with syncretism. It would have been a very insulting thing to bring in the Roman way oppressively into the holy place (Jerusalem).


The passage in Luke is all one really needs to understand what is being spoken of in Matthew, but I gave you some additional ideas.

When was there a time so bad that there was not a time like it before, nor to that time, nor shall there ever be a time like it again?

That very statement excludes the possibility of an end-times situation. Why? If this was at the end of time, why would Jesus say "or shall ever be"???? So apparently, once more, what is going on in Matthew 24 is NOT end times, and is in fact sometime in the middle of history.
Read Ez 5:9, Christ makes an almost identical statement about the PRIOR destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians!!!!!! So how could Ez 5:9 be true (it also says, "or will ever be") if Matthew is true ("has ever been")??? You literalists are in trouble on this one.
Just for fun, another example of this is in Ex 11:6, so we now have three times this statement was made in history, but I will relent.


Unless one, of course, arrives at the logical conclusion that this is symbolic and apocalyptic language to describe something of great significance and suffering.

When did anyone see the Son of Man come as lightning that shines from the east to the west?

Note the Greek word translated "coming" means "presence". Look at Revelation 2:5 and 3:20 for an example you'd take symbolically without thinking twice. Most of the time the two are interchangeable but my point is that this doesn't necessarily prove a bodily return of Christ.
Do you think the destruction of Jerusalem was INVISIBLE? Or painfully obvious? I think that's what is being discussed.
Lightning is usually linked to God's judgement (Deu 33:2, 2 Sam 22:15, Isa 30:30, Zech 9:14).

When did anyone see the Son of Man come in the clouds with trumpets and angels and His elect?

You've made the assumption the coming is DOWN, and not UP, correct?
Read Daniel 7:13-14. What direction is the coming Daniel wrote about? UP!!! This is something futurists tend to miss...
Now, obviously you know, Jews back then knew their Bible well, unlike us today, and had memorized much of it, so when Christ used the same language in speaking to his disciples, what prophecy do you think they would've thought he was speaking about? Daniel 7:13-14!

Matthew 24 is speaking of the same thing in Daniel 7, he's going UP to receive his Kingdom and rule from heaven!

Read Matthew 26:64, he will be "sitting and coming"- note the two are linked. If you think this is a transportation between earth and heaven or heaven and earth, this passage does not make sense. However when one realizes that the sitting is linked to the coming... It's dealing with his coming to the throne!

 

[Eccl.12:13]

So you believe that Luke 21 and Matt. 24 are speaking of the same event that happened around 70ad and that ALL of the events spoken of in Matt.24 have already taken place!

Are you also under the assumption that the following is a metaphor or something that has already happened?

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

These are future events that are YET to happen. It did not happen during the time of ANY of the disciples and they have not happened up until this day!

Or how about this....

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Jesus tells His followers about a time that is so bad that there has never been a time like it since the beginning of time, nor has there been a time like it up until the days they were living in, nor will there ever be a time like it ever!

Just when did this time occur?

Luke speaks of the invasion of Rome, while Matt. answers the question the disciples asked.....

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"


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[veteran]

Eccl is lying when he says I've never covered the matter of the 1260 days periods in Rev.12. I've covered those periods in relation to the great tribulation timing our Lord Jesus gave several times, not just once. I've covered it with many posts about endtime prophecy, to Bud02, guysmith, not just ony to Eccl.

Just because I have not mentioned within THIS particular thread the 1260 periods matter of Rev.12, Rev.11, Rev.13, and from the Book of Daniel, does not mean the many other threads where I did cover it are dead. Eccl. is not being truthful.

Consolation now is how Eccl. is having to try to deal with TexUs's Preterist deception of wrongly believing Christ already fulfilled all the Matthew 24 signs He gave. Blind leaders of the blind they are...

 

[TexUs]

So you believe that Luke 21 and Matt. 24 are speaking of the same event that happened around 70ad and that ALL of the events spoken of in Matt.24 have already taken place!

Yes, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are the same passage.
And yes, I believe the prophecy Christ gave (it's one prophecy told by two authors) is fulfilled.

"And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

These are future events that are YET to happen. It did not happen during the time of ANY of the disciples and they have not happened up until this day!

So the surrounding and destruction of Jerusalem didn't happen in 70AD? That even fulfills this prophecy! How can you deny that?
And how can you look at the context (walking among the temple, and the question that was asked), and say this is NOT dealing with the destruction in 70AD?

"For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be."

Jesus tells His followers about a time that is so bad that there has never been a time like it since the beginning of time, nor has there been a time like it up until the days they were living in, nor will there ever be a time like it ever!

Just when did this time occur?

Did you read anything I posted, or are you just so set in your beliefs you didn't even read it (my guess)???
Go back and read it. You literalistic are in deep trouble on this one because such a statement was made several times in the past of history, which means all three statements contradict each other SEVERELY if taken literally.

Luke speaks of the invasion of Rome, while Matt. answers the question the disciples asked.....

"...what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?"

The proper translation, of course, being "age". The KJV is wrong, and stepped from translation into interpretation.
What age? The Jewish age.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Eccl is lying when he says I've never covered the matter of the 1260 days periods in Rev.12. I've covered those periods in relation to the great tribulation timing our Lord Jesus gave several times, not just once. I've covered it with many posts about endtime prophecy, to Bud02, guysmith, not just ony to Eccl.

Just because I have not mentioned within THIS particular thread the 1260 periods matter of Rev.12, Rev.11, Rev.13, and from the Book of Daniel, does not mean the many other threads where I did cover it are dead. Eccl. is not being truthful.

Consolation now is how Eccl. is having to try to deal with TexUs's Preterist deception of wrongly believing Christ already fulfilled all the Matthew 24 signs He gave. Blind leaders of the blind they are...

I'm sorry veteran! If you did cover the 3.5yr period in other posts I was not aware of it! I was only talking about this lesson that I posted. I just joined this forum a few months ago and did not go through all of the pages to see whether or not this particular topic had been covered.

As far as dealing with texus.............please! This is not my first rodeo concerning those that believe Luke and Matt. both speak of the same events! I just find it hard to believe someone has convinced them to think the way they do!


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[TexUs]

Sooooo- you're unable to deal with anything I've posted.

Yep. Such is the folly of futurism/literalism.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Yes, Luke 21 and Matthew 24 are the same passage.
And yes, I believe the prophecy Christ gave (it's one prophecy told by two authors) is fulfilled.

I am yet waiting for you to explain ALL of Matt.24 being fulfilled! You can't just explain the parts you want to cover...you must explain the WHOLE chapter if that is what you believe. With that said please continue with the following......

[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

God's gospel has YET to be preached in all of the world even to this day!

And the following.....

[15] When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

Now you say the following....

1) It's Jerusalem to be ruined, not necessarily the temple
2) We now learn what the desolation is: the armies.

But Jesus tells us to go back to read about the abomination spoken of by Daniel the prophet.

Readers....let's go with Christ on this one and read what Daniel had to say about this abomination;

Dan.11
[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan.12
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now according to Daniel, whoever or whatever this abomination is, it will cause the daily sacrifice to STOP!! And the sacrifices have not happened since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.

Now if they are to be stopped.....then at some point they MUST be started! Started......AGAIN!!!! Sometime in the future!

And the following......

[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

At what point was there ever a day where man was able to destroy ALL flesh to the point that God had to intervene prior to the atomic age?

Almost forgot this one.....
[31] And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

And just when did the trumpets sound AND the elect gathered?


And NOW, getting to the verse that according to you...

That very statement excludes the possibility of an end-times situation.

Let's read the examples you gave to see if they in fact contradict "Severely".

Exod.11
[6] And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

And what was the event that God said would NEVER happen again? Let's read it.....

[4] And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:
[5] And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

So not only the first born human would die, but God said the first born of ALL beast would die on this day in Egypt!

This is the event God said would NEVER happen again; the dying of the first born of man and beast in Egypt.....NOT a times of trouble that will effect the WHOLE world that Jesus speaks of in Matt.24. Let's read your other example Ezek.5:9..... but let's now read a bit more than just one verse....

Ezek.5
[1] And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.
[2] Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
[3] Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
[4] Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.
[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem:

So God is talking about ONLY the nation of Israel here and NOT a time of trouble that will effect the WHOLE world. Let's continue to read what it is God will do to the nation of Israel....

[6] And she hath changed my judgments into wickedness more than the nations, and my statutes more than the countries that are round about her: for they have refused my judgments and my statutes, they have not walked in them.
[7] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because ye multiplied more than the nations that are round about you, and have not walked in my statutes, neither have kept my judgments, neither have done according to the judgments of the nations that are round about you;
[8] Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I, even I, am against thee, and will execute judgments in the midst of thee in the sight of the nations.

So the Lord is going to punish ALL of Israel and Israel ONLY for not keeping His laws and commandments. Now let's go to the verse you provided, but this time with the understanding we have just read. Let's find if He will ever do THIS action again to Israel.....

[9] And I will do in thee that which I have not done, and whereunto I will not do any more the like, because of all thine abominations.

So God did just what He said He would do. He had never done it before and He will never do it again. But what was it that was done? It was the punishment and scattering of the nation of Israel.

Readers....as you have just read...neither one of these scriptures provided by texus is speaking about the times of trouble that Jesus tells us will be upon the WHOLE world.

The scripture in Exod. speaks of a one time event that dealt with the first born man and beast, while the Ezek. event speaks of the punishment and scattering of Israel. Both a far cry from the times of Jacobs trouble/great tribulation spoken of by Christ!

Do not be misled here. Jesus speaks of a time that will be so bad there has never been a time like it since the world was formed.....there has never been a time like it even up to the time He spoke the words....and there will NEVER be another time like it EVER!

If you just think about all of the bad times we have heard about or have seen in our lifetimes, the time Jesus warns us about will be worse!



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[jiggyfly]

For in him we live and move and exist. As one of your own poets says, `We are his offspring.' Acts 17:28

 

[TexUs]

I am yet waiting for you to explain ALL of Matt.24 being fulfilled! You can't just explain the parts you want to cover...you must explain the WHOLE chapter if that is what you believe.

Um, you asked me what to cover, it wasn't the other way around.

[14] And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

God's gospel has YET to be preached in all of the world even to this day!

Says who? Paul?


Colossians 1:6, "In the same way, the gospel is bearing fruit and growing throughout the whole world"


Colossians 1:23, "This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven"


According to Paul that was already done.
Now, before you get your panties in a wad over the "world" one must ask themselves, "what is world?".
Do you suppose the Roman emperor literally taxed the whole world, or do you suppose the world meant to them, their culture of which they were part of? The word Matthew uses is frequently used in connection to the Roman world, the Roman empire, not the literal globe.

Dan.11
[31] And arms shall stand on his part, and they shall pollute the sanctuary of strength, and shall take away the daily sacrifice, and they shall place the abomination that maketh desolate.
Dan.12
[11] And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Now according to Daniel, whoever or whatever this abomination is, it will cause the daily sacrifice to STOP!! And the sacrifices have not happened since the destruction of Jerusalem in 70ad.

As you say, they stopped in 70AD thus fulfilling the prophecy in Daniel... You're doing my work for me.

Now if they are to be stopped.....then at some point they MUST be started! Started......AGAIN!!!! Sometime in the future!

Says who?

[22] And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

At what point was there ever a day where man was able to destroy ALL flesh to the point that God had to intervene prior to the atomic age?

Ask yourself: saved from what? Destruction? Isn't saying "Saved from destruction" an assumption not found in the text? Perhaps it could mean judgement? Either way, assuming destruction is just that: assumption.


Isaiah said in Isaiah 13:20 that Babylon would never be inhabited again, yet it is. Do you call him a liar?
Isaiah 66:16. Back in the day, apparently, the Lord judged all flesh, and yet the slain were only "many".
Acts 2:17, the Spirit was poured on all flesh. Do you suppose the Mayans started speaking in tongues too?
1 Samuel 15:8, "all people" were destroyed by his sword, yet here we live today.


So once more, verses you take symbolic in other places, even with identical language, you suddenly take literal here.


Could it be that God limited (for the sake of the elect) the bloodshed to Jerusalem-only, and he didn't allow the Roman armies to head into the hills were the Elect had fled? The Jews left in Jerusalem were not the elect, this judgement was on them.
That's what I think this text means.

Exod.11
[6] And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

And what was the event that God said would NEVER happen again? Let's read it.....

Doesn't matter. The point here is the cry would be unrivaled, not the act. My point still stands.

Let's read your other example Ezek.5:9..... but let's now read a bit more than just one verse....

Ezek.5
[1] And thou, son of man, take thee a sharp knife, take thee a barber's rasor, and cause it to pass upon thine head and upon thy beard: then take thee balances to weight, and divide the hair.
[2] Thou shalt burn with fire a third part in the midst of the city, when the days of the siege are fulfilled: and thou shalt take a third part, and smite about it with a knife: and a third part thou shalt scatter in the wind; and I will draw out a sword after them.
[3] Thou shalt also take thereof a few in number, and bind them in thy skirts.
[4] Then take of them again, and cast them into the midst of the fire, and burn them in the fire; for thereof shall a fire come forth into all the house of Israel.
[5] Thus saith the Lord GOD; This is Jerusalem:

So God is talking about ONLY the nation of Israel here and NOT a time of trouble that will effect the WHOLE world. Let's continue to read what it is God will do to the nation of Israel....

Sorry, but that's not supported by the statement in verse 9, and I think you know it.
"I will do to you what I have never done before and will never do again."
Does he say he will do to them what he has never done before TO ISREAL or will never do again TO ISREAL???? Or is this an absolute statement?


Did he only do that act to Isreal? Yes! Was his statement limited to only Isreal about the severity? No, his point was obviously about great severity.
But this is my point and you've made it for me and yet fail to see it. Apply the same logic you've applied, to Matthew 24! The doom will only be given Jerusalem, and the severity will be great!


It's a pitty you apply correct logic to OT prophecies but when you hit the NT prophecies you change your entire methodology.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Isaiah said in Isaiah 13:20 that Babylon would never be inhabited again, yet it is. Do you call him a liar?
Isaiah 66:16. Back in the day, apparently, the Lord judged all flesh, and yet the slain were only "many".
Acts 2:17, the Spirit was poured on all flesh. Do you suppose the Mayans started speaking in tongues too?
1 Samuel 15:8, "all people" were destroyed by his sword, yet here we live today.

Texus.....I'm just going to go over the scriptures YOU provided and be done with this.

You say;

Isaiah said in Isaiah 13:20 that Babylon would never be inhabited again, yet it is. Do you call him a liar?

Well let's read just a bit more verses to get a better understanding.

Isa.13
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
[5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
[6] Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

The day of the Lord has yet to happen. The above speaks about the Great battle that is yet to happen. Let's confirm...

[9] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
[10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Sounds familiar? It should to most readers. For it is the same time Jesus speaks of in Matt.24. A time YET to happen. Let's continue....

[11] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[12] I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

And why will a man be more precious that fine gold? Because there will be so few of him left.

[13] Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Again....a time that is yet to happen. Now let's read YOUR verse with the understanding that all of this is yet to take place...

[20] It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

I guess when the time comes we will find out if God is indeed a liar. But I think NOT!

Next...you provided the following.....

Isaiah 66:16. Back in the day, apparently, the Lord judged all flesh, and yet the slain were only "many".

Once again let's read MORE than just one verse to find what thus saith the Lord...

Isa.66
[15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

This sounds like the same event spoken of in the other verse you provided. For this time spoken of is again the second coming of the Lord. Let's confirm...first with the verse YOU provided....

[16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

You ask, "...and yet the slain were only "many".". First....this has not happened yet. Second....when it does will the Lord kill ALL that are upon the earth? Of course not. Now let's read a few more to confirm this is yet a future event....

[18] For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And just when will the Lord gather ALL nations and tongues? At the Great battle. Let's read more.....

[23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And at what time has ALL flesh come to worship the Lord?

[24] And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.

And looked upon those that worm shall not die nor their fire quenched? Sounds like that other place mentioned in God's word. Let's look at YOUR next scripture....

1 Samuel 15:8, "all people" were destroyed by his sword, yet here we live today.

Come on texus......Really? Let's read.....a bit more scripture to see what is really going on here.....

1 Sam.15
[2] Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt.
[3] Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.

So is God talking about ALL of the world here Tex? Let's read....

[7] And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
[8] And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

All of what people Tex? All of the world? No....just those that God told Saul to kill.

Now let's read YOUR last scripture.....

Acts 2:17, the Spirit was poured on all flesh. Do you suppose the Mayans started speaking in tongues too?

Again....Really? Let's read with understanding.....

Acts 2
[16] But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;

So this is something that was spoken of by the prophet Joel. Let's read ALL of the verse you provided....

[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So this is something that will happen in the "LAST DAYS". Now let's see if we can narrow these "last days' down.

[18] And on my servants and on my handmaidens I will pour out in those days of my Spirit; and they shall prophesy:
[19] And I will shew wonders in heaven above, and signs in the earth beneath; blood, and fire, and vapour of smoke:
[20] The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before that great and notable day of the Lord come:

WOW Tex.....these "last days' sound just like the other scriptures you provided!

Readers of this lesson....you can continue to listen to texus or read the bible for yourselves and pray and ask God for wisdom and understanding!

I pray you all will go with the latter!

Texus....I'm done with you!

"Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you."

I pray God will remove the delusion He has given you....

"And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:"



Readers beware!!!!


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[TexUs]

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004']Isa.13
[4] The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
[5] They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
[6] Howl ye; for the day of the LORD is at hand; it shall come as a destruction from the Almighty.

The day of the Lord has yet to happen. The above speaks about the Great battle that is yet to happen. Let's confirm...[/quote]
What "great battle"? Your assumption: the end times Bible. Not supported here.
You're also reading the word "great" into here, it just says "battle". Of course, anyone else that can read the Bible for what it is will see this.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][9] Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.
[10] For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Sounds familiar? It should to most readers. For it is the same time Jesus speaks of in Matt.24. A time YET to happen. Let's continue....[/quote]
Yeah, nothing to support "end times" here, either.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][11] And I will punish the world for their evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
[12] I will make a man more precious than fine gold; even a man than the golden wedge of Ophir.

And why will a man be more precious that fine gold? Because there will be so few of him left.[/quote]
You don't believe God considers man more important to him than gold, today?

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][13] Therefore I will shake the heavens, and the earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the LORD of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger.

Again....a time that is yet to happen. Now let's read YOUR verse with the understanding that all of this is yet to take place...[/quote]
And again, this language was used many times in prophecy. Do you think the heavens LITERALLY have been shaken many times? Do you think the stars have LITERALLY fell many times? Or do you suppose this is symbolic and apocalyptic language?

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004[20] It shall never be inhabited, neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation: neither shall the Arabian pitch tent there; neither shall the shepherds make their fold there.

I guess when the time comes we will find out if God is indeed a liar. But I think NOT![/quote]
I notice you completely omitted V 19, I wonder why?
Babylon, the jewel of kingdoms,
the pride and glory of the Babylonians,
will be overthrown by God
like Sodom and Gomorrah.

We know Cyrus did this in 539BC.

Once again, prophecy fulfilled.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004]Once again let's read MORE than just one verse to find what thus saith the Lord...

Isa.66
[15] For, behold, the LORD will come with fire, and with his chariots like a whirlwind, to render his anger with fury, and his rebuke with flames of fire.

This sounds like the same event spoken of in the other verse you provided. For this time spoken of is again the second coming of the Lord. Let's confirm...first with the verse YOU provided....[/quote]
Hmmm what event is being spoken of here?
Before she goes into labor,
she gives birth;
before the pains come upon her,
she delivers a son.
Who has ever heard of such things?
Who has ever seen things like this?
Can a country be born in a day
or a nation be brought forth in a moment?
Yet no sooner is Zion in labor
than she gives birth to her children.

May 14, 1948- fulfilled.


[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][16] For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many.

You ask, "...and yet the slain were only "many".". First....this has not happened yet. Second....when it does will the Lord kill ALL that are upon the earth? Of course not. Now let's read a few more to confirm this is yet a future event....[/quote]
First... Stop saying "this has not happened yet" because, obviously Israel is now reborn and a nation again- know your Biblical context.
Second... Ahhh so like I said, you've got no problem taking this SYMBOLICALLY. That's my point. Apply the same logic to Matthew 24.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][18] For I know their works and their thoughts: it shall come, that I will gather all nations and tongues; and they shall come, and see my glory.

And just when will the Lord gather ALL nations and tongues? At the Great battle. Let's read more.....[/quote]
"At the great battle", eh? I guess you have to add to what the passage actually says in order to arrive at that conclusion. Typical of a futurist of course.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][23] And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.

And at what time has ALL flesh come to worship the Lord?[/quote]
So a few verses earlier you have no problem taking it symbolically and yet you then immediately switch back into literal land. LOL... This is my point. You switch randomly back and forth depending on how you want to take the out-of-context verse.

This entire thing is a symbolic picture of the rebirth of Israel. FULFILLED.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004][7] And Saul smote the Amalekites from Havilah until thou comest to Shur, that is over against Egypt.
[8] And he took Agag the king of the Amalekites alive, and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword.

All of what people Tex? All of the world? No....[/quote]
Ah so once more, my point proven. The EXACT SAME LANGUAGE used by Christ in Matthew, you take symbolically everywhere else. Yet you want Matthew 24 alone to be literal so of course, you treat that passage unlike anything else in the Bible.

[quote name='Eccl.12:13' timestamp='1293146884' post='95004]
[17] And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God,I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams:

So this is something that will happen in the "LAST DAYS".[/quote]
The Apostle Peter is speaking of this prophecy being fulfilled by Joel (He's quoting it). You'd know this if you actually read and understood the context. And you disagree with the Apostle that could speak for Christ? Unbelievable.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Readers and those with knowledge and widsom, continue to pray and ask God for faith. For the time will soon be upon us when a great amount of faith will indeed be needed.

God has given us signs to look for that will let us know the great tribulation is about to come upon the whole word;

1. The building of a temple!
2. The start of the daily sacrifice!
3. The placing of a man into the newly built temple!

And sometime, just before the man is placed you will see something different happening around the the wilderness of Zin, of Sinai and of Moab. God tells us....

Isa.43
[19] Behold, I will do a new thing; now it shall spring forth; shall ye not know it? I will even make a way in the wilderness, and rivers in the desert.

When you hear or witness these events happening in the wilderness your faith in God's word will be pushed to it's limits! For at that time you will remember this lesson and you WILL make a choice! Remeber now.......doing nothing and staying put is STILL a choice!

Will you be able to up and leave ALL that you have and have worked for in order to save you and your family?
Will you have the faith to be able to up and leave your house, car, and job?
Will you be able to endure the ridicule your friends will be giving you? They will be saying things like, "Have you gone mad and joined some cult?"
Will you be able to explain to your family that this IS the right course of action?

It COULD be a very hard choice to make. But the more you pray, study and truly ask God for wisdom and understanding about His place of safety, you will find that you cannot wait to leave, knowing you will be protected by the only one that can do it!

For those living outside of God's place of safety during the 3.5yr tribulation period here is some of the things you will have to look forward to;

First and foremost, you MUST take a sign in order to buy or sell;

Rev.13
[16] And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
[17] And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

And as you know, once you have taken the mark your fate is sealed!


Next, if you are able to get by without taking the sign that will be needed to buy or sell, Satan will come looking for you....

"And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time."

"And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations"

Now these God called 'saints', meaning they are righteous, they are believers in God's word! But we find that even these God did NOT protect! Why? Well these may have been those that received the word of God after the tribulation was upon them, or, they may have been those that did NOT flee!

But either way....THESE saints were not protected by God, for His word tells us they WILL be worn out and overcome by the man of sin.

This is the fate of saints we are talking about! Did they have to go through this time of trouble? For some of them NO! If they took the leap of faith, trusted in God's word and was able to make it to His place of safety they would be WATCHING the events and not PARTICIPATING in them!!!

Oh yes! Leaving ALL that you love and care for will be hard......but look at what awaits you if you do not!!!!

As always, pray and ask God to open your understanding about His place of safety!

It will be the ONLY place to avoid the GREAT TRIBULATION PERIOD!!!!



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[Eccl.12:13]

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