First Work of Faith: Confessing Jesus Christ

[robert derrick]

Dear Robert Derrick,

Dear FaithWillDo,

Since you did respond to my first argument as specifically as you could, which is rare on this site, I am more than glad to keep my promise to go down the line of point by point debate. So, here goes, and let's enjoy the ride.

One way falls under the Old Covenant and the other way falls under the New Covenant.

The difference between the works that justify in the Old and New Covenants, is that justifiable works in the OT were only deeds done with hand and body. Now the saving and justifying works are words of confession, just as God's words of creation are His work to create all things.

The spiritual nature of the NT, is that now all believers can speak words of God to be created new creatures in Christ Jesus.

Paul says that if you follow the Law even on just one point (like circumcision), the person becomes a debtor to keeping the whole Law (which is not possible). He then says that this person is fallen from grace. The church has made the confession of faith a "work".

I say it is, which you have not refuted. The law of Christ is greater than the law of Moses. Now by words of confession and ministry the church works the work of God.

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Turning to works is the sin that leads to death and is how Satan kills the saints (Mat 24:9, Rev 11:7). It happens 100% of the time to all Elect believers before they are converted. It is their "day of evil" (Prov 16:4, Jer 17:17) when they are under Satan's spiritual control.

I reject the faith lone condemnation of works of faith. Faith alone is dead, but works of faith are alive in Christ to justify a man.

The just shall live by faith.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

At least your not so deep into the heresy of faith alone, that you don't argue against the Scripture, by saying we are saved by faith alone before confessing the Lord Jesus.

I believe many Christians refuse to acknowledge we are justified by works, out of political correctness to faith alone roaring lions.

but I really don't know since you have not answered the questions I asked you earlier.

I am doing so now, because of your kindness in meeting my demands of responding to my first argument on the thread. So far, you are the only one with integrity enough to do so. You are not vacuous and vain like other faith alone teachers.

Their belief in their own "works" comes from the false teachings of Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ.

This is the faith alone ploy of twisting works of faith for Christ's sake, into faith in our works for pride's sake.

He is 100% responsible for our salvation

True. He gladly accepts the responsibility of saving and justifying man by works of faith, and not by imaginary dead faith alone. That way His people must continually accept the responsibility for what we do in His name.

and that includes our confession of faith.

As I said, you're not completely caught up in the faith alone heresy.

And because He is, He will save all mankind just as He said He would do. Neither Satan or mankind can stop Him from succeeding.

Now you join the JW camp, that no man will be resurrected unto eternal shame.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.

Do you believe Christ is going to save 100% of mankind?

Of course not. I believe Scripture of God, not imaginations of men.

100% of men that obey God unto the end, certainly. Jesus keeps all who keep His faith and keep doing His will.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

God does not keep us from sinning. Just as Jesus kept Himself from sinning, so must we to walk as He walked.

The saved by faith alone heresy is for them that don't want to keep themselves from sinning 100% of the time, because from time to time they still enjoy a little taste of the devil.

 

[robert derrick]

The difference between what you are saying and what I am saying is very different. Mankind has no works to perform to receive the gift of the Holy Spirit and salvation. The confession of faith is Christ's work and is not man's work. You say there is no difference but there is.

We agree with the Scripture that confession of the mouth is unto salvation. We disagree that we have no part in our confession, as though we are just mouths used by God without our will and knowledge.

Although the prophets and apostles are the ready pens in the hands of the Writer, they still consent with their fingers to write Scripture.

Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

By the prophet refusing for a time to prophecy, he proves we must willingly confess and prophecy for God.

I don't see how Calvin's no-will faith and salvation helps to argue against man's words being work. Since you say all men's words and works are without free will.

It still sounds like you believe in mankind's "free will" ability as to whether or not a person will make a confession of faith -

I've dealt with another of your Cavlin brothers extensively.

Let's just say his whole argument is dead at the beginning. If any man can say we have no free will, because the Bible does not specifically say we do have free will, then any man can also say we have free will, because the Bible does not specifically say we do not have free will.

Mankind has no "free will" ability. Only the Father has a free will ability.

So, man is not created in God's image after all.

To be consistent, you must say God has no free will.

Mankind can only respond to the work which Christ does within us.

Then neither Lucifer, Adam, nor Judas sinned against God.

If a person believes in mankind's ability to make a "free will" choice as to whether or not to accept Christ, they cannot possibly be saved at that time.

Try confessing Jesus or saying anything without will, especially not against your own will, which is slavishness to outside persuasion and force.

The only reason anyone teaches against free will, is to excuse sinning with the devil. They supplement it with the heresy of being created that way and blaming it on God. "It's not my fault God made me this way."

Christian homosexuals use that lie to justify continued homosexuality.

Do you believe mankind has a free will to decide to make a confession of faith?

Try doing so against your will. If you say you don't want to resist confessing Christ, then you confirm free choice to consent to or resist God's good will.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Dear FaithWillDo,

Since you did respond to my first argument as specifically as you could, which is rare on this site, I am more than glad to keep my promise to go down the line of point by point debate. So, here goes, and let's enjoy the ride.



The difference between the works that justify in the Old and New Covenants, is that justifiable works in the OT were only deeds done with hand and body. Now the saving and justifying works are words of confession, just as God's words of creation are His work to create all things.

The spiritual nature of the NT, is that now all believers can speak words of God to be created new creatures in Christ Jesus.


I say it is, which you have not refuted. The law of Christ is greater than the law of Moses. Now by words of confession and ministry the church works the work of God.


I reject the faith lone condemnation of works of faith. Faith alone is dead, but works of faith are alive in Christ to justify a man.

The just shall live by faith.

Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

At least your not so deep into the heresy of faith alone, that you don't argue against the Scripture, by saying we are saved by faith alone before confessing the Lord Jesus.

I believe many Christians refuse to acknowledge we are justified by works, out of political correctness to faith alone roaring lions.



I am doing so now, because of your kindness in meeting my demands of responding to my first argument on the thread. So far, you are the only one with integrity enough to do so. You are not vacuous and vain like other faith alone teachers.



This is the faith alone ploy of twisting works of faith for Christ's sake, into faith in our works for pride's sake.


True. He gladly accepts the responsibility of saving and justifying man by works of faith, and not by imaginary dead faith alone. That way His people must continually accept the responsibility for what we do in His name.



As I said, you're not completely caught up in the faith alone heresy.


Now you join the JW camp, that no man will be resurrected unto eternal shame.

And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Of course not. I believe Scripture of God, not imaginations of men.

100% of men that obey God unto the end, certainly. Jesus keeps all who keep His faith and keep doing His will.

We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

God does not keep us from sinning. Just as Jesus kept Himself from sinning, so must we to walk as He walked.

The saved by faith alone heresy is for them that don't want to keep themselves from sinning 100% of the time, because from time to time they still enjoy a little taste of the devil.

Dear Robert Derrick,
Since it appears we are not going to come to a similar understanding, there is not any reason to continue our discussion. However, I will reply to a couple of points you made since you are still misunderstanding what I have been saying.

You said:
Now you join the JW camp, that no man will be resurrected unto eternal shame.

First of all, the verse which you quoted which is translated to say "everlasting contempt" is wrong. It should read "age-during contempt".

Secondly, I don't believe Christ is saving all mankind in this age. He is saving only the First Fruits of His harvest. The "lost" will be resurrected to judgment and cast into the Lake of Fire. The Lake of Fire is a symbol for the judgment of Christ and is not literal fire. The judgment in the Lake of Fire lasts only until the person has "paid the last penny":

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

At the end of the final age, all mankind will be saved and God will be "all in all" (1Cor 15:28).

You said:
Try doing so against your will. If you say you don't want to resist confessing Christ, then you confirm free choice to consent to or resist God's good will.

Christ's work within a person will change their heart and their mind to agree with His "will" for them. This is the only way for carnal mankind to ever confess that Jesus is Lord.

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and pour out the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit. This will change them from within and they will then confess Jesus as Lord. And Christ has promised to come to all mankind with the gift of the Spirit. However, His plan will take TWO ages of time to complete. This age is only for the harvest of the First Fruits. The remaining balance of the harvest will be brought into the barn (Kingdom of Heaven) at the end of the final age.

Thanks for the discussion.

Joe

 

[robert derrick]

Mankind's spiritual condition we have from birth is flawed.

Being created sinful by Christ is false. He lightens every man coming into the world. He does not darken every babe as a devil born to sin.

It is not man's fault that we were created imperfect. God is responsible for our marred spiritual condition which causes us to sin.

Falsely accusing God is a work of the devil. You see how words are work?

Heresies are works of the flesh. (Gal 5)

Lucifer made himself spiritually marred, as did Adam and every man since, except Jesus.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

It was NOT a mistake by God.

No, it would be evil creating by God. Which is the lie of the god of this world.

But for now, mankind must learn about evil; and not just being on the receiving end of evil but also being on the giving end of evil.

God does not say to any man, "Thou shalt do evil."

God even created Satan to be our tempter and deceiver so that we would have a fuller experience of evil.

Lucifer became Satan when he wilfully rebelled against God.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Your theological philosophy has nothing to do with Scriptural truth of God, and argues against it.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Because of our spiritually marred condition we have at birth, we all grow to become sinful and evil creatures.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since Christ is the Maker of all men, and not the devil, then your accusation of men being created evil is against God.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

Christ, of course, knew Adam and Eve were carnally minded and would sin because He made them that way.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

And for this same reason, all of Adam & Eve's offspring sin as well.

My body is made of the same flesh and blood as Adam, as was Jesus' body. That's the only thing Jesus and His saints have in common with Adam after he sinned.

Sinners can claim Adam as their spiritual and ungodly father all they wish. If they think that justifies uncleanness and ungodliness, then their just deluding themselves.

Mankind's sin was planned and caused by God so that we would all experience evil.

Now, it's like Indian and Egyptian theology.

Christ is neither Seth, Ravan, nor Satan.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1 and James 1 are specifically written by God to rebuke this age old lie of the devil and false accusation against the Word.

God does not first love man by creating men and women children of the devil.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

He still does so today.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Being created sinful by Christ is false. He lightens every man coming into the world. He does not darken every babe as a devil born to sin.


Falsely accusing God is a work of the devil. You see how words are work?

Heresies are works of the flesh. (Gal 5)

Lucifer made himself spiritually marred, as did Adam and every man since, except Jesus.

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.



No, it would be evil creating by God. Which is the lie of the god of this world.

God does not say to any man, "Thou shalt do evil."


Lucifer became Satan when he wilfully rebelled against God.

Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God.

Your theological philosophy has nothing to do with Scriptural truth of God, and argues against it.

Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.


All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Since Christ is the Maker of all men, and not the devil, then your accusation of men being created evil is against God.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.




Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.


My body is made of the same flesh and blood as Adam, as was Jesus' body. That's the only thing Jesus and His saints have in common with Adam after he sinned.

Sinners can claim Adam as their spiritual and ungodly father all they wish. If they think that justifies uncleanness and ungodliness, then their just deluding themselves.


Now, it's like Indian and Egyptian theology.

Christ is neither Seth, Ravan, nor Satan.

All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.

John 1 and James 1 are specifically written by God to rebuke this age old lie of the devil and false accusation against the Word.

God does not first love man by creating men and women children of the devil.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

He still does so today.

Dear Robert Derrick,
There really is no reason to continue this discussion. Your understanding of Christ and His plan for mankind is not coming from scripture.

This one verse contradicts your overall understanding of God:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

Nothing exists in this creation without the God the Father and Christ having purposely created it. This includes all the evil in the world and mankind's sinful spiritual condition.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Satan was created by God for the purpose of deceiving and spiritually killing mankind:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. This makes mankind evil and prone to frequently sin. For that reason, Adam and Eve sinned. They did not have the free will ability to do differently. If mankind has a free will ability to not sin as you contend, then the Old Covenant of Law would have been sufficient to make at least some people righteous. But the Old Covenant couldn't make anyone righteous because mankind's sin problem is a result of their being made spiritually marred and subject to vanity. God made us this way on purpose because He wants mankind to experience evil:

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Because of your belief in mankind's supposed "free will" ability, you have brought God down to the level of mankind who can only hope for the best but lacks the power to do anything about it when things don't go right.

You really don't believe that God is in control of His creation. You believe that God wants to save all mankind, but He really can't do anything about mankind's "free will" power - it's just too strong for Him to overcome. For this reason, you believe that God is only going to save the smartest & best of mankind but is going torment in literal fire the rest who came up short.

I have shown you the verses which teach the truth about God and His plan for mankind but you just seem to ignore what they teach. If you won't accept scripture as your source of truth, then it really is time to end our discussion. There is nothing I can do to help you.

Christ is not the monster you have made Him out to be. He loves 100% of mankind and He will not rest until He as converted and saved everyone of us. He has the power to do it and He will not let anything stand in His way from accomplishing it. Mankind's free will is no problem for Him to overcome.

This will be my last post on this thread. It has run its course.

Again, I do thank you for the discussion.

Joe

 

[robert derrick]

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST...

Since mankind's salvation is 100% the work of Christ, no man has the ability to choose the timing of their own salvation. Only the Elect have been chosen by God to be saved in this age. Everyone else must wait for the final age for their day of salvation.

This is all pseudo-theological Calvin predeterminism and OSAS in the extreme.

No man is saved as by fire of lake of fire.

The only thing Jesus works 100% on His own was laying down His life for sins of the world. Even with His own crucifixion, He still needed a little help from His false accusers and Romans doing their jobs.

However, in the final age, there is a group order for salvation that has been established by God: the remaining Gentiles will be saved first, then after their "fullness" has come into the Kingdom of Heaven, the remaining bulk of physical Israel will finally be saved.

The only ones saved after His coming again to earth, will be the neighborly sheep. Beforehand there will many killed by God's plagues, all in the armies gathered around Armageddon will be destroyed, and the remaining goats will be judged and sentenced unto death.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.

Mat 19:30 But many that are first shall be last; and the last shall be first.

If a person has been chosen from the foundation of the world,

The only one chosen from the foundation of the world is the Word to become Lamb of God on earth. All people are preknown by observation of the Word yesterday, today, and tomorrow, which is thus preknown by the Father in the beginning.

Them that believe and confess the Lord Jesus are chosen to be in Him by His Spirit, and to be conformed to His image by obediently walking after the Spirit.

Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Christ will not let them physically die in their sins. He will come to them a second time and give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit. The Latter Rain is also called the Baptism of the Holy Spirit.

The Baptism of the Holy Spirit is for any born again son of God, that seek His face.

With this baptism, the new child of God is born.

Some are baptised with the Spirit, when born again. Others are baptised later.

He said unto them, Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed? And they said unto him, We have not so much as heard whether there be any Holy Ghost.

When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


And some are never baptized with His Spirit, because they don't seek Him for it.

The Latter Rain of the Spirit occurs at the Second Coming of Christ when Christ comes to one of His Elect during this present age.

If you're not receiving Him now in this life, then you never will. And any Christian not living His life at His coming again, with be left among the hypocrites of the earth. They may live through the plagues to repent and be chosen as sheep entering His kingdom on earth, unless of course they harden their hearts and join the armies at Armageddon, or just keep living like goats, until sentenced to death.

Christ’s second coming is a reoccurring spiritual event. It is not the falsely claimed one-time event which happens at the end of this physical age.

Is Spiritual coming to save and dwell in souls of new believers, is occuring every day by the grace of God. And He can even be appear in His immortal flesh and bones as He did with the disciples, just as angels unawares.

But His prophecy of Himself coming again as shining lightening, and His church resurrected to meet Him in the air, is not false prophecy.

You're just writing your own Bible.

These verses apply:

Rev 1:4 John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne...

Rev 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.

After Christ comes to an Elect believer a second time and gives them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, the Day of the Lord will immediately follow with judgment upon the Man of Sin/Old Man. After their judgment is complete, the Elect believer will be fully converted.

It's fine to acknowledge these spiritual things when saved, but it's false to do away with the physical things prophesied for this earth at His coming again.

Amils are great symbolizers, but lousy interpreters of prophecy.

And as I said earlier, Christ will not forget the rest of mankind and will NOT leave them to rot in the field.

No, He will raise up all the dead not already raised in the first resurrection at His coming again.

Those latter raised dead will then be judged according to their works, whether in the book of life, or cast into the LOF.

That is the fulfillment of last resurrection prophecy in Dan 12.

In the final age, at the end of the harvest season (Feast of Tabernacles), Christ will finish His work within them and bring in the full harvest of mankind.

I used to wish something like this for Hitler, so long as I was included without repenting.

But I never tried to make a whole religion for it out of twisting Scripture.

One final point:

Mankind is NOT restored to the Father because it is mankind’s "will" to be restored to Him. Mankind is restored to the Father because it is God's "will" for it to happen.

No man confesses sinning to be forgiven of sin, without will to be forgiven.

Only past sins are forgiven in Christ. And all men's sins will not be forgiven retroactively in the end.

The only time for forgiveness of past sins, is now in this life, not in nor after the grave.

For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.

You've got a smattering of Calvin, JW, OSAS, and AMILLENNIALISM.

All it adds up to is being saved and justified in sins, not from sinning. Including retroactively as by LOF.

 

[robert derrick]

Dear Robert Derrick,
Since it appears we are not going to come to a similar understanding, there is not any reason to continue our discussion. However, I will reply to a couple of points you made since you are still misunderstanding what I have been saying.

No, I understand it perfectly, and have even helped you do it to your satisfaction.

However, since you are saving all men in the end anyway, then your agreement with Scripture, that we must confess the Lord Jesus to be saved, is meaningless.

And also your refusal to call words of confession work, is doubly meaningless.

Afterall, what does any doctrine of Christ matter, since you will have all men in Christ in the end anyway? Might as live it up now in the pleasures of sin and hedonistic epicureanism, while there's still time to do so on this earth.

And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry.

First of all, the verse which you quoted which is translated to say "everlasting contempt" is wrong. It should read "age-during contempt".

I don't work magic with ancient languages, to make Scripture say what I want to believe.

The Lake of Fire is a symbol for the judgment of Christ and is not literal fire.

As I said, the Symbol Man's Bible of JW's and amils.

JW's use it to do away with tormenting hell, and amils use it to do away with Christ's Millennium on this earth.

The judgment in the Lake of Fire lasts only until the person has "paid the last penny":

So now you add Catholicism to your smorgasbord of errors. Purgatory is a delusion for unrepentant sinners.

Luke 12:59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.”

At the end of the final age, all mankind will be saved and God will be "all in all" (1Cor 15:28).

You said:
Try doing so against your will. If you say you don't want to resist confessing Christ, then you confirm free choice to consent to or resist God's good will.

Christ's work within a person will change their heart and their mind to agree with His "will" for them.

Not without our will to confess Him.

If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land.

Not only do you have God saving people without their will, in the end you have God saving people against their will.

This is the only way for carnal mankind to ever confess that Jesus is Lord.

The only way for sinners to confess the Lord Jesus, is to repent, believe the gospel from the heart, and confess Him freely with the mouth.

But none of that matters anyway, since all are going to be saved in the end anyway.

The conclusion therefore, is that all your own Bible writing and imaginative scholarship, is just the gnostic's love for intellectual stimulation and meaningless knowledge.

JW's are famous for that.

When Christ is ready to save a person, He will come to them and pour out the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit.

Jesus is ever ready to save them that believe and confess Him from the heart.

This will change them from within and they will then confess Jesus as Lord.

Or not. They'll be saved as by LOF in the end anyway.

Eat, drink, and be merry, for tomorrow we die, before the season of suffering in hell, and then dwell with God on the new earth.

Thanks for the discussion.

My pleasure. I've heard much of these heresies already from JW's, Catholics, Amils, and OSAS.

You just add in a few details of your own, to wondrously link them altogether, into one marvellous little fudged pudding out of Scripture.

And upon her forehead was a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

I too admire your intellectual skill, even as John. However destructive it may be.

As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

[robert derrick]

Dear Robert Derrick,
There really is no reason to continue this discussion. Your understanding of Christ and His plan for mankind is not coming from scripture.

I am only corrected by accurate challenges to my arguments. Nah-ah doesn't cut it.

This one verse contradicts your overall understanding of God:

1Cor 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

And we believers created anew by Him. Not all things nor unrepentant men.

Nothing exists in this creation without the God the Father and Christ having purposely created it. This includes all the evil in the world and mankind's sinful spiritual condition.

Jesus Christ is not the Devil, Seth, nor Ravana.

Nor do those false gods you preach create nor make anything but a lie, especially not create their own evil children by birth from the womb.

Isa 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: 6 That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. 7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and CREATE EVIL: I the LORD do all these things.

Amos 3:6 Shall a trumpet be blown in the city, and the people not be afraid? shall there be evil in a city, and the LORD hath not done it?

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the Most High doth not there proceed evil and good?

Prov 16:4 The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.

Job 2:10 But he said to her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. We have also received good from God, and should we not receive evil? In all this Job did not sin with his lips.

Ecc 7:13 Consider the work of God: for who can make that straight, which he hath made crooked?

Satan was created by God for the purpose of deceiving and spiritually killing mankind:

Isa 54:16 Behold, I have created the smith that bloweth the coals in the fire, and that bringeth forth an instrument for his work; and I have created the waster to destroy.

Mankind was created spiritually marred and subject to vanity. This makes mankind evil and prone to frequently sin. For that reason, Adam and Eve sinned. They did not have the free will ability to do differently. If mankind has a free will ability to not sin as you contend, then the Old Covenant of Law would have been sufficient to make at least some people righteous. But the Old Covenant couldn't make anyone righteous because mankind's sin problem is a result of their being made spiritually marred and subject to vanity. God made us this way on purpose because He wants mankind to experience evil:

Ecc 1:13 An experience of evil God has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.

Because of your belief in mankind's supposed "free will" ability, you have brought God down to the level of mankind who can only hope for the best but lacks the power to do anything about it when things don't go right.

You really don't believe that God is in control of His creation. You believe that God wants to save all mankind, but He really can't do anything about mankind's "free will" power - it's just too strong for Him to overcome. For this reason, you believe that God is only going to save the smartest & best of mankind but is going torment in literal fire the rest who came up short.

I have shown you the verses which teach the truth about God and His plan for mankind but you just seem to ignore what they teach. If you won't accept scripture as your source of truth, then it really is time to end our discussion. There is nothing I can do to help you.

Christ is not the monster you have made Him out to be. He loves 100% of mankind and He will not rest until He as converted and saved everyone of us. He has the power to do it and He will not let anything stand in His way from accomplishing it. Mankind's free will is no problem for Him to overcome.

This will be my last post on this thread. It has run its course.

Again, I do thank you for the discussion.

Joe

Neither do I bother responding a second time, to those who sidestep my challenges and just repeat themselves.

A discussion to me is point, counterpoint, not just endlessly making our own points over and around one another.

I don't write things just to appreciate myself in writing.

 

[robert derrick]

This will be my last post on this thread. It has run its course.

Well, if you've got nothing new to add, then that is the end.

Again, I do thank you for the discussion.

My pleasure. I've learned some new things from it. And I am still amazed by how many errors of different groups you have managed to mesh together in one really great fuzzy mess.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Right, code word ‘works’ (plural) but the faith that is how we are saved requires work.

Sad to see you sticking to your code words and ignore common usage, especially considering the work of accepting grace is a requirement of what we must do to be saved OR …. wait for it … universalism would be correct doctrine, right?

You worry me my friend.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

No sir. Pretending it is a boast in earning it is not what this conversation hinges on. It hinges on work we must do.

Why do you insist on contradicting yourself? Why do you say it is nothing we do AND all we have to do is X? One has to do something or they don’t,

It is the WORK OF GOD we believe in the one he sent - Spoke by Jesus in John chapter 6.

I am not contradicting myself at all. I am stating a fact.. It is not my work. It is his wrk that brought me to faith