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For God so loved the world...

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by treeoflife, May 6, 2008.

  1. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    How could a God, who so hates sin... who is so opposed to sin... so love us? He must seperate us from the sin, and He did that in Jesus. We know that... and salvation is in Him. But, before the foundations of this world in fact... Jesus was in the plan. Our sin didn't sneak up on Him... or catch God off guard. We didn't surprise Him with our sin. Oh no, Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world -- Revelation 13:8.It's a profound mystery. It's one of the many reasons I know that once a person is saved, they are saved, period. Some say, "Once saved always saved." I simply say, "Once saved... period." You can't sneak up on God with your sin. He so loved the world, that He died for you. Oh, and He did this before you even experienced sin. God was ready with an answer, just so that we could be with Him.Oh no, you won't sneak up on God ever. He is ready with an answer. His answer is, was, and will always be His Son.
     
  2. Rudy

    Rudy New Member

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    I don't want to get into a debate but...I disagree with the "Once saved, always saved" doctrine. The reason? Although God loves us so much that nothing can separate us from His love, that does not mean that we don't have to do anything to please Him once we are saved. I'm not talking about earning our way into heaven by good works. (The Bible says that it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.) I'm referring to the fact that throughout the Bible, we are commanded to sanctify ourselves. Now, why would we have to be sanctified if we are always saved? That's the point -- we are to sanctify ourselves so that we can be holy even as He is holy. Maybe this will help to explain what I mean... Salvation is a free gift from God. We don’t have to earn it; we have to receive it by faith, and then maintain it by good works that are “done in God.” (John 3:21) Ephesians 2:8-10 states, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk [live] in them.” The first step in the process of salvation is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart: “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation…. For ‘whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.’” (Romans 10:9-10, 13) Hebrews 11:6 states: “Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” The Apostle Peter says “…receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.” (1Peter 1:9) The Bible makes it perfectly clear that we are to do certain things to “stay saved,” and it calls this process sanctification. When we do our part, God will do His part to complete the process. James 5:8 says, “Draw near to God [condition], and He will draw near to you.” Philippians 2:12-13 agrees: “[you] work out your own salvation with fear and trembling [also a condition]; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” If we don’t sanctify ourselves, Hebrews 12:14 tells us that we won’t see the Lord: “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” God works in us only when we do our part. “Being confident of this very thing, that He which has begun a good work in you will perform [complete] it until the day of Jesus Christ…” (Phil 1:6) When we do what God commands us to do, not only are we sanctified, but also these good works of God actually show that we have faith in God, and they justify us before Him. Ephesians 2:10 states that we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk [live] in them.” “For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For, if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord: therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.” (Rom 14:7-8) Some of the things that God commands us to do are as follows: James 1:22 -- “But be doers of the Word, and not hearers only deceiving yourselves.” 1 John 1:7 -- “Walk in the light as He is in the Light.” [“God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5); John 3:21 – “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”] Romans 12:1-2 -- “…present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” [John 2:15 “Do not love the world, or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”-- Romans 13:12 “So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”]1 John 2:5 -- “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.” [“Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, ‘If you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’” (John 8:31-32)]1 John 3:7 -- “He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” Col 1:21-23; 2:11 say that God makes us “holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,” if [condition] we “continue in the faith” and are “not moved away from the hope of the gospel,” and [because we are in Him] He helps us to put off “the body of the sins of the flesh.”James 4:17 -- “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” James mentions “faith and works” numerous times in his epistle: James 2:14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” and James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” are just a few examples. James continues (2:22-23), “Do you see that faith was working together with his [Abraham’s] works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God.” If we were to continue living like the world, how would anyone know that we believe in Jesus? There would be no difference between the world and us. It would be pointless to say that we believe in Jesus while we do nothing that He says. Our works (those things that we do to sanctify ourselves) prove to God that we really believe in Him, and, in turn, the faith and works together justify us before God. Paul also uses this same example of Abraham and his faith working with his works. Concerning this, he states: “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness…” (Rom 4:5) Immediately following this example, he says, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1) Paul then goes on to talk about Adam’s sin and its consequences and Jesus’ obedience and its blessings and continues to talk about justification before God: Rom 5:16 -- “And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.”Romans 3:24 -- “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”Rom 8:33 -- “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies…” As Paul brings his epistle to an end (after talking much about faith and works, Christ’s redemptive work, and the Spirit versus the flesh and that we should live in the Spirit), he says, “For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.” (Romans 14:18) As we are pleasing to God, there will be some in the world who will not be happy with what we are doing [consider Abraham: would anyone be pleased that he was going to sacrifice his son in obedience to God’s command?]. We are not to let them force us into cowering down to “their level” and sinning. It may justify us before these sinners to do evil, but it will not justify us before God. Who cares if they reject us for doing what is right? (After all, God will never reject us.) We shouldn’t care about what people think about us, anyway. However, as people begin to see us doing those things that please God, some people will begin to approve. So we will be justified before God, not men, but some will approve of what we are doing, because they see a difference in us and know that we are doing what is right. Since we are striving to please God, we won’t care what other people think or say about us, because we only care if it is pleasing to Him. (Seems like an added bonus that people will approve of us, even though we are only trying to please God, not them.) Salvation is also synonymous with abiding in Christ. 1 John 5:4 states, “This is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith. Who is He who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” How do we abide in Christ? “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us – eternal life,” stated the Apostle John. (1 John 2:24-25) Jesus also agrees in his prayer for his disciples: “As You have given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” (John 17:2-3) In 1 John 2:3-5a, the Apostle states, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No one comes to the Father, but through Me. (John 14:6) – therefore, Christ is not in him.] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.” [1 John 4:8,12-16, 18 talks about abiding in Him being synonymous with being perfected in love: “…God is love…. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.”] John continues in chapter 2 verse 5b, “By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.” In 1 John 3:5-6, 8, 10, John says, “…in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. [literally, practice sin] Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him… He who sins is of the devil…Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God…” [“All unrighteousness is sin.” 1 John 5:17 -- Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”] Jesus said, “And you do not have His word abiding in you: for Him whom He has sent, Him you do not believe.” (John 5:38) In John 15:4-5, 9-10 Jesus says, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine; so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without Me you can do nothing…. As the Father has loved me, even so I have loved you: continue [abide] in my love [Remember that in his first epistle, John talks about being perfected in love as synonymous with abiding in Christ; see above.]. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.” Luke 14:23-24 states, “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.” If we are “saved” by the above criteria, our sins are forgiven. “[He] give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins…” (Luke 1:77) “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) “And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1) “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Heb 8:12) This goes along with 1 John 3:7, which says, “He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” If we believe God and practice righteousness, we are righteous; when we sin, if we confess our sins, Jesus, our righteous Advocate, “is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” because He is righteous and “in Him there is no sin.” (1 John 3:5) 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Romans 5:19 also shows that we are made righteous through Christ: “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.” Romans 1:16-17 states, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith.’” “Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” (Rom 5:18) We don’t have to be condemned; we are forgiven! Jesus said, “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.” (John 3:17) Paul sums it up in this way: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh… So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His…For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:1-3, 8-9, 14) The Apostle John sums up all the above criteria of salvation in his Gospel and in his first epistle:“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him…We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him…And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true and we are in Him who is true, and in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:1, 18, 20)
     
  3. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    We are to sactify ourselves, it's true. In fact, Jesus said to be perfect as our father in heaven is perfect. (Matthew 5:48)That's a pretty tall order. Nevertheless, it is an order. Be perfect, *just as your father in Heaven is perfect*. Have you obeyed this command? Jesus gave it... shouldn't we obey it? I intend to. Do you? I'm sure you do. So, how should we? How can we work the works of God? Do we achieve this by works, or do we really, truly, wholly, acheive this by God's grace in Christ?What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God? This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. (John 6:28-29)It's true, once saved, always saved. Salvation is either a gift, or it's not. It is either by works, or it is not. If it is not first attained by works, how then could it be lost by works (or lack thereof) thereafter? Oh, God's grace is so good. He does no wink at sin, he doesn't give permission to sin. It's not about that--I wouldn't say that. It's about God's finished work on the cross. It's about Him, being glorified, not us, ever. His grace, and His grace alone, and God will get all the glory in heaven--not men.What shall we say then? Should we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid. We should not. Nevertheless... grace does abound. Once saved, always saved. All our crowns will someday be laid at His feet. Our works are truly as filthy rags. Filthy, nasty, dirty, discusting rags. In the light of His perfect, righteous, glorious self. Praise the Lord, for His unending grace! [​IMG]
     
  4. archierieus

    archierieus New Member

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    Jesus often had to deal with extremes. The Pharisees were totally caught up in the OT laws. Jesus said to them that they needed to believe and accept Him as the Messiah. He was not saying that it was okay to murder, to cheat, to lie, etc. But for the Jews, the HUGE issue was believing in Him. An opposite extreme is to suggest that all a person has to do is to believe. One time someone told me that even if he murdered someone and never repented, he would still go to heaven. That is not Scriptural. For that matter, the Biblical concept of 'believe' involves much more than intellectual acceptance. It entaiis a change in the life.Dave
     
  5. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (archierieus;48764)
    Jesus often had to deal with extremes. The Pharisees were totally caught up in the OT laws. Jesus said to them that they needed to believe and accept Him as the Messiah. He was not saying that it was okay to murder, to cheat, to lie, etc. But for the Jews, the HUGE issue was believing in Him. An opposite extreme is to suggest that all a person has to do is to believe. One time someone told me that even if he murdered someone and never repented, he would still go to heaven. That is not Scriptural. For that matter, the Biblical concept of 'believe' involves much more than intellectual acceptance. It entaiis a change in the life.Dave
    I agree with your friend. Even if he murdered someone he would go to heaven (assuming this one thing, He HAS trusted Christ for His salvation). I don't really concern myself with the politics of whether it is sinful or not... I know it's sinful. Nobody is saying murder isn't sinful. One might also ask, "Would a person who has trusted Christ murder so unjustly, and sinfully?" A good question. Nevertheless, murder is a sin and Jesus has paid the price for all sin. If you have blood on your hands... it doesn't matter. Jesus had blood on His so you don't have to. He died for ALL sin, period. Name a sin, any sin. I will then tell, "Yes, Jesus died for that."If anyone else can name a sin that Jesus didn't die for (besides the sin of not believing in Him), then okay. But, that won't happen... and I will argue for unmerited favor and eternal salvation apart from works till the day I die.We tend to think, "Oh, we still sin, sure... but our sins aren't *THAT* sinful. Jesus covers those sins still, of course... but woah, the sin of murder? No, that one is too much for Christ. He didn't have enough blood for that sin." They may not say it, but it is revealed in their conclusions, and in their thinking. It is wrong.Jesus died for all sin, every sin, and whether we like it or not (I do like it, praise the Lord), that means ALL sin.I am humbled by God's amazing grace... and, amazingly... it causes me not to sin.
     
  6. Hope

    Hope New Member

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    (treeoflife;48206)
    How could a God, who so hates sin... who is so opposed to sin... so love us? He must seperate us from the sin, and He did that in Jesus. We know that... and salvation is in Him. But, before the foundations of this world in fact... Jesus was in the plan. Our sin didn't sneak up on Him... or catch God off guard. We didn't surprise Him with our sin. Oh no, Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world -- Revelation 13:8.It's a profound mystery. It's one of the many reasons I know that once a person is saved, they are saved, period. Some say, "Once saved always saved." I simply say, "Once saved... period." You can't sneak up on God with your sin. He so loved the world, that He died for you. Oh, and He did this before you even experienced sin. God was ready with an answer, just so that we could be with Him.Oh no, you won't sneak up on God ever. He is ready with an answer. His answer is, was, and will always be His Son.
    Hello,I agree with "You can´t sneak up on God with you sin". But I don´t agree with the "Once saved ... period". Every person must grow in faith and repent for their sins to receive salvation. Many say they believe but ... believe in what?. Believing is obeying the Word of God. If you "Once save ... period" then you are "making void" the Word of God. And God is not the author of confusion. Judgement starts at the house of God.1Peter 417For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? 18And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?You must obey the gospel of God. Saying that you "believe" does not mean you understand and obey the gospel of God and that you are saved.Matthew 721Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. 22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. 24Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand: 27And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it. Now, some are teaching that we don´t have to do anything to be save. They teach that just by saying "we believe" we are already saved. That "teaching" is WRONG.Matthew 1230 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man , it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost , it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.All manner of sin and blasphemy as long as we repent. But there is ONE sin "it shall not be forgiven". So from this alone we know that the "Once saved ... period" is NOT TRUE. Hebrews 64 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.It is talking about: "who were once enlightened, have tasted of the heavenly gift, partakers of the Holy Ghost, tasted the good word of God and the powers of the world to come". Is not talking about those who did not receive the Holy Ghost and dont know the Word of God. So AGAIN, the "Once saved ... period" is NOT TRUE.1 John 516 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.And YES, "Jesus was slain before the foundations of the world"... Why? Because the WORD WAS WITH GOD BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD. And then again:Ecclesiastes 110Is there any thing whereof it may be said, See, this is new? it hath been already of old time, which was before us.With love,Hope
     
  7. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    When we are told to "repent", this is different than confess. Confess and repent are two different things. It is true, we are encouraged to confess our sins, both to God and to one another. And, it is good to confess our sins.However, repent (the kind we are told is necessary for salvation) means simply to turn... to change ones direction or mind. I changed my mind about who God was when I trusted Christ as my savior. People believe all kinds of things about God, but in order for them to come to Christ, one must first change their mind (repent) about who God is. I, and any other person who is saved, repented when I first recieved Christ and trusted Him as my messiah. Surely, confession of sin often follows suit when we change our mind about who God is and believe in Christ, no doubt! I certainly did. I couldn't stop confessing sin before Him. Nevertheless... confession and repentance are two different things, I am sure there is some sin I neglected to confess, even now. How about you? Is it possible that you have ANY unconfessed sin, right now? Not just the sin you know about, but sin you don't know about? If there is, in fact... unconfessed sin, and I still anticipate going to heaven... than it cannot be confessing sin that will get me there. It is Christ's work on the cross that I recieved when I first repented and believed.Nowhere does it teach that a person must continually confess new sin in order to hold onto their salvation, or even to attain it. We are to repent and believe.Give me time, and I will answer your scripture references. I must get ready for work now. [​IMG]
     
  8. crooner

    crooner New Member

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    (Rudy;48717)
    I don't want to get into a debate but...I disagree with the "Once saved, always saved" doctrine. The reason? Although God loves us so much that nothing can separate us from His love, that does not mean that we don't have to do anything to please Him once we are saved. I'm not talking about earning our way into heaven by good works. (The Bible says that it is the gift of God, not of works lest anyone should boast.) I'm referring to the fact that throughout the Bible, we are commanded to sanctify ourselves. Now, why would we have to be sanctified if we are always saved? That's the point -- we are to sanctify ourselves so that we can be holy even as He is holy. Maybe this will help to explain what I mean... Salvation is a free gift from God. We don’t have to earn it; we have to receive it by faith, and then maintain it by good works that are “done in God.” (John 3:21) Ephesians 2:8-10 states, “For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk [live] in them.” The first step in the process of salvation is confessing with your mouth and believing in your heart: “that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation…. For ‘whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.’” (Romans 10:9-10, 13) Hebrews 11:6 states: “Without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.” The Apostle Peter says “…receiving the end of your faith--the salvation of your souls.” (1Peter 1:9) The Bible makes it perfectly clear that we are to do certain things to “stay saved,” and it calls this process sanctification. When we do our part, God will do His part to complete the process. James 5:8 says, “Draw near to God [condition], and He will draw near to you.” Philippians 2:12-13 agrees: “[you] work out your own salvation with fear and trembling [also a condition]; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure.” If we don’t sanctify ourselves, Hebrews 12:14 tells us that we won’t see the Lord: “Pursue peace with all people, and holiness, without which no one will see the Lord.” God works in us only when we do our part. “Being confident of this very thing, that He which has begun a good work in you will perform [complete] it until the day of Jesus Christ…” (Phil 1:6) When we do what God commands us to do, not only are we sanctified, but also these good works of God actually show that we have faith in God, and they justify us before Him. Ephesians 2:10 states that we are “created in Christ Jesus for good works that we should walk [live] in them.” “For none of us lives to himself, and no one dies to himself. For, if we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord: therefore, whether we live or die, we are the Lord's.” (Rom 14:7-8) Some of the things that God commands us to do are as follows: James 1:22 -- “But be doers of the Word, and not hearers only deceiving yourselves.” 1 John 1:7 -- “Walk in the light as He is in the Light.” [“God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all.” (1 John 1:5); John 3:21 – “But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”] Romans 12:1-2 -- “…present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable to God, which is your reasonable service. And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God.” [John 2:15 “Do not love the world, or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him.”-- Romans 13:12 “So then each of us shall give account of himself to God.”]1 John 2:5 -- “But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.” [“Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, ‘If you continue in my word, then you are my disciples indeed, and you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.’” (John 8:31-32)]1 John 3:7 -- “He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” Col 1:21-23; 2:11 say that God makes us “holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight,” if [condition] we “continue in the faith” and are “not moved away from the hope of the gospel,” and [because we are in Him] He helps us to put off “the body of the sins of the flesh.”James 4:17 -- “Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin.” James mentions “faith and works” numerous times in his epistle: James 2:14 “What does it profit, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can faith save him?” and James 2:17 “Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead,” are just a few examples. James continues (2:22-23), “Do you see that faith was working together with his [Abraham’s] works, and by works faith was made perfect? And the Scripture was fulfilled which says, ‘Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.’ And he was called the friend of God.” If we were to continue living like the world, how would anyone know that we believe in Jesus? There would be no difference between the world and us. It would be pointless to say that we believe in Jesus while we do nothing that He says. Our works (those things that we do to sanctify ourselves) prove to God that we really believe in Him, and, in turn, the faith and works together justify us before God. Paul also uses this same example of Abraham and his faith working with his works. Concerning this, he states: “But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness…” (Rom 4:5) Immediately following this example, he says, “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (Romans 5:1) Paul then goes on to talk about Adam’s sin and its consequences and Jesus’ obedience and its blessings and continues to talk about justification before God: Rom 5:16 -- “And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the free gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification.”Romans 3:24 -- “being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus.”Rom 8:33 -- “Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies…” As Paul brings his epistle to an end (after talking much about faith and works, Christ’s redemptive work, and the Spirit versus the flesh and that we should live in the Spirit), he says, “For he who serves Christ in these things is acceptable to God and approved by men.” (Romans 14:18) As we are pleasing to God, there will be some in the world who will not be happy with what we are doing [consider Abraham: would anyone be pleased that he was going to sacrifice his son in obedience to God’s command?]. We are not to let them force us into cowering down to “their level” and sinning. It may justify us before these sinners to do evil, but it will not justify us before God. Who cares if they reject us for doing what is right? (After all, God will never reject us.) We shouldn’t care about what people think about us, anyway. However, as people begin to see us doing those things that please God, some people will begin to approve. So we will be justified before God, not men, but some will approve of what we are doing, because they see a difference in us and know that we are doing what is right. Since we are striving to please God, we won’t care what other people think or say about us, because we only care if it is pleasing to Him. (Seems like an added bonus that people will approve of us, even though we are only trying to please God, not them.) Salvation is also synonymous with abiding in Christ. 1 John 5:4 states, “This is the victory that has overcome the world – our faith. Who is He who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God? And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.” How do we abide in Christ? “If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. And this is the promise that He has promised us – eternal life,” stated the Apostle John. (1 John 2:24-25) Jesus also agrees in his prayer for his disciples: “As You have given Him power over all flesh, that He should give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. And this is life eternal, that they might know You the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom You have sent.” (John 17:2-3) In 1 John 2:3-5a, the Apostle states, “Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. He who says, ‘I know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. [I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life: No one comes to the Father, but through Me. (John 14:6) – therefore, Christ is not in him.] But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him.” [1 John 4:8,12-16, 18 talks about abiding in Him being synonymous with being perfected in love: “…God is love…. No one has seen God at any time. If we love one another, God abides in us, and His love has been perfected in us. By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world. Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. And we have known and believed the love that God has for us. God is love, and he who abides in love abides in God, and God in him. Love has been perfected among us in this: that we may have boldness in the day of judgment; because as He is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves torment. But he who fears has not been made perfect in love.”] John continues in chapter 2 verse 5b, “By this we know that we are in Him. He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.” In 1 John 3:5-6, 8, 10, John says, “…in Him there is no sin. Whoever abides in Him does not sin. [literally, practice sin] Whoever sins has neither seen Him nor known Him… He who sins is of the devil…Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God…” [“All unrighteousness is sin.” 1 John 5:17 -- Romans 6:23 “For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.”] Jesus said, “And you do not have His word abiding in you: for Him whom He has sent, Him you do not believe.” (John 5:38) In John 15:4-5, 9-10 Jesus says, “Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine; so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches: He that abides in Me, and I in him, the same brings forth much fruit: for without Me you can do nothing…. As the Father has loved me, even so I have loved you: continue [abide] in my love [Remember that in his first epistle, John talks about being perfected in love as synonymous with abiding in Christ; see above.]. If you keep My commandments, you shall abide in My love; even as I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love.” Luke 14:23-24 states, “Jesus answered and said to him, ‘If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.” If we are “saved” by the above criteria, our sins are forgiven. “[He] give knowledge of salvation to His people by the remission of their sins…” (Luke 1:77) “If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.” (1 John 1:9) “And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous.” (1 John 2:1) “I will be merciful to their unrighteousness and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more.” (Heb 8:12) This goes along with 1 John 3:7, which says, “He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous.” If we believe God and practice righteousness, we are righteous; when we sin, if we confess our sins, Jesus, our righteous Advocate, “is faithful and just to forgive our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness,” because He is righteous and “in Him there is no sin.” (1 John 3:5) 2 Corinthians 5:21 states, “For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.” Romans 5:19 also shows that we are made righteous through Christ: “For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man's obedience many will be made righteous.” Romans 1:16-17 states, “For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. For in it [the gospel] the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, ‘The just shall live by faith.’” “Therefore, as through one man's offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man's righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life.” (Rom 5:18) We don’t have to be condemned; we are forgiven! Jesus said, “For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved.” (John 3:17) Paul sums it up in this way: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh… So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His…For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.” (Romans 8:1-3, 8-9, 14) The Apostle John sums up all the above criteria of salvation in his Gospel and in his first epistle:“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.” (John 3:16) “Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him…We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him…And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true and we are in Him who is true, and in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:1, 18, 20)
    You dont want to get into a debate? after this one hour debate. LOL. If we cant be secure in salvation we have nothing. Just a form of legalism. Which your debate is full of.
     
  9. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Hope;49082)
    1 Peter 4:17-18Matthew 7:21-27Matthew 12:30-32Hebrews 6:4-20 John 5:16-17
    I'll address each scripture reference, one at a time, in the order you gave them in the quote above.First reference was to First Peter, which I will expand:
    1 Peter 4:15-19 But let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters. Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf. For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God? And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear? Wherefore let them that suffer according to the will of God commit the keeping of their souls to him in well doing, as unto a faithful Creator
    Peter says in verse 15, "let none of you suffer as a murderer, or as a thief, or as an evildoer, or as a busybody in other men's matters."A murderer? A thief? or an evildoer? The very fact that Peter tells us (Christians) not to suffer for such crimes as these, but rather, we should suffer solely for our faith in Christ... goes to show that yes, indeed, a Christian could UNWISELY suffer such consequences of being a murderer, a thief, or an evildoer. Peter didn't say, "If you suffer as a murderer, thief, or evildoer, you are not saved." God forbid! That isn't what Peter said at all. He gave instruction telling us to not suffer for these things... but rather, suffer for only the one act of being a Christian. The very fact that Peter gave instruction NOT TO SUFFER for these crimes, only proves that once a person is saved they are always saved. He gave no indication whatsoever that we would be lost if we sinned in these ways, only that if we do, we will suffer... but we should rather suffer for Christ only.Once saved, always saved still true.
    Galatians 3:1-4O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​
    ---------------------------Second reference was to Matthew chapter 7, which I will narrow down to the meat of the argument:
    Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.​
    All this says is what we already know... that many on that day will be turned away for not knowing Christ. Jesus says to them, "I never knew you: depart from me..."Many will indeed call Him "Lord Lord," as we know, one day EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS that He is Lord. Many people, trying to justify themselves with good works but who never knew Jesus will be told, "I NEVER KNEW YOU."This obviously is NOT SPEAKING about Christians, because Jesus says He *never* knew them. Since I know neither of us take Jesus for a liar, and when He says never He means never... Jesus is not speaking about a Christian who lost salvation (which does not exist, because Christians don't lose their salvation), He is talking to people who *never* knew Him. Can't be Christians who lost their faith, because you would say that they once knew him, and fell away. Jesus is talking to those who never knew Him.Once saved, always saved still true.
    Galatians 3:1-4O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​
    ---------------------------Third reference was to Matthew chapter 12, verses 30-32:
    Matthew 12:30-32:He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad. Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.​
    It's good that you point on these verses, because Jesus speaks of the unpardonable sin (the one and only)--the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. And, what is this blaspheme? It is the rejecting of His Spirit that tells us to repent to God, and believe on His Son. He tells the unbeliever to repent and turn to Christ for salvation. Once that is done, it's a done deal, and we are sealed. Jesus says that ALL MANNER OF SIN, AND BLASPHEMY SHALL BE FORGIVEN UNTO MEN--ALL MANNER, ALL SIN. Praise the Lord, for His awesome grace, and work on the cross. This is not an argument against eternal salvation, it is an argument for it. Though, there is no argument at all... only convincing. Jesus died for all manner of sin, and blaspheme. There is only one sin a man can commit, and that is never turning to Christ for salvation. Once that's done, it's done. All manner of sin and blaphsmeme is forgiven in Christ. He died for ALL SIN.Once saved, always saved still true.
    Galatians 3:1-4O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​
    ---------------------------Forth reference was to Hebrew chapter 6, verses 4-6:
    Hebrews 6:4-6For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.​
    This, again, is speaking of the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us this is the unpardonable sin, and if a man commits it, He is doomed. If a person is enlightened by God of the truth, by the Holy Ghost who is the administrator of that truth... and having tasted of the Good Word of God, shall fall away... it is impossible for Him to be renewed unto repentance. They are dead... they have committed the unpardonable sin. This is not speaking about Christians who have once at any time trusted Christ for their salvation. It is speaking of those who have been enlightened by God, of the truth, and blasphemed the Holy Spirit.Otherwise, this must be your arguement. Do you know anyone who has "fallen away" as a Christian, and returned to redidicate their life to Christ? If your translation of the verses above are accurate... it is your responsibility then to tell them they cannot be saved. Because if this is speaking of Christians who commit sin, then they cannot return to Him. That's what the verse says isn't it?Praise the Lord, that is not the case. His grace is sufficient for all sin, and HE HAS DONE THE WORK, IT IS FINISHED. This is speaking of the unpardonable sin, and only God knows when that is done, truly.
    Galatians 3:1-4O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​
    ---------------------------Finally, reference was to First John, chapter 5, verses 16-17... which I will expand to the end of the chapter.
    1 John 5:16-21If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.​
    First, we need to figure out what John is talking about, and what sin unto death is. But it certainly doesn't make any indication that it has anything to do with someone losing salvation.Can't you see... ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is sin (as stated above). If you are imperfect, in any way, whatsoever... you sin. You sin everyday and you don't even know it. I guarantee there is sin in your life right now you don't even know about, and me too. ALL UNRIGHTEOUSNESS is sin, period.
    Galatians 3:1-4O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? Have ye suffered so many things in vain? if it be yet in vain.​
    We are either saved by grace, or by works. To teach anything but eternal salvation apart from works is only one of many forms of legalism. We are not under the law, we now live under grace. And whether we like it or not, God is our judge, and He has deemed to be so merciful to us that we are given the gift of salvation, totally apart from our good or evil deeds. We need only to repent and trust Him, and we are sealed with HIS PROMISE.He is good at keeping His promises. It is no longer about our righteousness once we trust Him... it is about His righteousness to keep us... and He is never unrighteous.Once saved, always saved, period. Praise the Lord!:amen::amen::blessyou:
     
  10. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (crooner;49085)
    If we cant be secure in salvation we have nothing. Just a form of legalism. Which your debate is full of.
    :amen:
     
  11. Rudy

    Rudy New Member

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    One time someone told me that even if he murdered someone and never repented, he would still go to heaven. That is not Scriptural. For that matter, the Biblical concept of 'believe' involves much more than intellectual acceptance. It entaiis a change in the life.
    Perfect analogy! Romans 6:1-4 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
    I agree with your friend. Even if he murdered someone he would go to heaven (assuming this one thing, He HAS trusted Christ for His salvation)
    If a Christian is a murderer and he walks up and kills one of your loved ones, would you consider him saved? You wouldn't say, "Oh, he didn't mean anything by it. He's a Christian, after all. I'm sure he trusts Jesus to forgive him." No! If he murdered, then either he is not a Christian, or if he is, he is not in his right mind. (Can you have a "Christian" murderer?)In case you haven't noticed, the Bible does not speak to kindly of murderers:1 John 3:15 ...and you know that no murder has eternal life abiding in him. Joh 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father you will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abides not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaks a lie, he speaks of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it."If Satan is a murderer and all he does is steal, kill, and destroy, that shows that a murderer is following Satan and he has NO TRUTH in him. (Jesus said, "I am the way, the TRUTH, and the life...")In the Old Testament, murderers were put to death! Nu 35:31 "Moreover ye shall take no satisfaction for the life of a murderer, which is guilty of death: but he shall be surely put to death."
    What shall we do, so that we may work the works of God? This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He has sent. (John 6:28-29)It's true, once saved, always saved. Salvation is either a gift, or it's not. It is either by works, or it is not. If it is not first attained by works, how then could it be lost by works (or lack thereof) thereafter? Oh, God's grace is so good.
    I never said that salvation was not a gift; I said that we don't have to earn it, but once we are saved, we should start living for Jesus. That is what sanctification is, and the Bible tells us how and what to do to sanctify ourselves. And if we are doing that, then if we make a mistake, we can come and ask for forgiveness, but if we sin willfully, Hebrews 10:26-27 says that "if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries." And James 4:17 says, "Therefore, to him who knows to do good and does not do it, to him it is sin." Think of these Scriptures in light of the murderer.People can backslide like the prodigal son. If there were no sanctification involved, we would not be saved. Sanctification involves repentance; it is PART of it. Like you said, repentance is a turning around. So, why would we need to turn around and do what God commands if we were always saved? You see, Jesus did die for all sin, but that does not mean that just because His grace covers our sins that we can do whatever we want. Once we are saved, Jesus blood covers all our previous sins, but from then on, we have to be careful how we live -- we need to live for Him. That IS the point. Titus 2: 11 - 12 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age...Romans 11:19-23 You will say then, "Branches were broken off that I might be grafted in." Well said. Because of unbelief they were broken off, and you stand by faith. Do not be haughty, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, He may not spare you either. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.If people can be cut off from the Branch by unbelief, then they were originally on the Branch. Therefore, it is possible to backslide through unbelief -- And it's not saying that they didn't believe from the start. They believed originally. Otherwise they wouldn't have been on the Branch. They were "cut off" from the Branch through their unbelief. And it does say that God is able to graft them in AGAIN, also implying that they were once grafted in originally.1 Corinthians 10:11-12 Now all these things happened to them as examples, and they were written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.Why would we need examples to live by if we were always saved? If we can fall, does this not imply that we can backslide and not be saved?Phil 2:12-16 work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Do all things without complaining and disputing, that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without fault in the midst of a crooked and perverse neration, among whom you shine as lights in the world, holding fast the word of life.1 Peter 2:11 abstain from fleshly lusts which war against the soul, having your conduct honorable among the Gentiles, that when they speak against you as evildoers, they may, by your good works which they observe, glorify God in the day of visitation.1 Peter 2:15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men...1 Cor 13:5 Examine yourselves as to whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Do you not know yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you? --unless indeed you are disqualified. James 4:8 [You] Draw near to God, and [then] He will draw near to you. [You] Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts you doubleminded... Notice the "good works" mentioned throughout these Scripture verses. Why would the Bible so instruct us if there was no such thing as losing salvation?As you can see from all these Scriptures, good works are a part of being saved (not the kind that people do to earn their way into heaven). If we were to believe in Christ and then do nothing that He commanded, we would be no better than the world. That is the point. You may not think that it is the issue, but it really is. I hope that after reading all this you will at least consider the possibility that it might be true, instead of trying to disprove every Scripture reference that I gave. 2Timothy 2:15 Be diligent to present yourself approved to God, a worker who does not need to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.God bless,Rudy
     
  12. Rudy

    Rudy New Member

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    Matthew 7:21-23Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.All this says is what we already know... that many on that day will be turned away for not knowing Christ. Jesus says to them, "I never knew you: depart from me..."Many will indeed call Him "Lord Lord," as we know, one day EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, and EVERY TONGUE CONFESS that He is Lord. Many people, trying to justify themselves with good works but who never knew Jesus will be told, "I NEVER KNEW YOU."This obviously is NOT SPEAKING about Christians, because Jesus says He *never* knew them. Since I know neither of us take Jesus for a liar, and when He says never He means never... Jesus is not speaking about a Christian who lost salvation (which does not exist, because Christians don't lose their salvation), He is talking to people who *never* knew Him. Can't be Christians who lost their faith, because you would say that they once knew him, and fell away. Jesus is talking to those who never knew Him.
    Some people think they're a Christian when they're not. That is who Jesus is referring to, not just those who don't know Him at all.
    Once that's done, it's done. All manner of sin and blaphsmeme is forgiven in Christ. He died for ALL SIN.
    It is a done deal, but a person can break his part of that deal.
    Hebrews 6:4-6For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.This, again, is speaking of the blaspheme of the Holy Spirit. Jesus tells us this is the unpardonable sin, and if a man commits it, He is doomed. If a person is enlightened by God of the truth, by the Holy Ghost who is the administrator of that truth... and having tasted of the Good Word of God, shall fall away... it is impossible for Him to be renewed unto repentance. They are dead... they have committed the unpardonable sin. This is not speaking about Christians who have once at any time trusted Christ for their salvation. It is speaking of those who have been enlightened by God, of the truth, and blasphemed the Holy Spirit.
    Hebrews 6 does not say that it is referring to blasphemy; it does not mention blasphemy of the Holy Spirit anywhere in that passage. What it does say is that if you fall away from your salvation, then you have crucified "the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." That is the sin that is being referred to (falling away and crucifying Jesus again), not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Where it mentions the Holy Spirit, the point is that they had fellowship with God and the Holy Spirit and then they fell away. It could be referring to the sin of blasphemy as it could be implied from the fact that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, but it doesn't specifically say that it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is the sin being referred to. But if you look at the way it is worded, it seems that the reason that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance is because of crucifying Jesus again and putting Him to an open shame.
    1 John 5:16-21If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death. We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not. And we know that we are of God, and the whole world lieth in wickedness. And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life. Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.First, we need to figure out what John is talking about, and what sin unto death is. But it certainly doesn't make any indication that it has anything to do with someone losing salvation.
    Using your argument, it certainly doesn't make any indication that it NOT referring to someone losing salvation.Also, the key in that passage is verse 17: "We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." Whoever keeps himself. Keeps himself from what? Sin. That verse again ties in with sanctification.
     
  13. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Rudy;49114)
    Perfect analogy! Romans 6:1-4 says, "What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."If a Christian is a murderer and he walks up and kills one of your loved ones, would you consider him saved? You wouldn't say, "Oh, he didn't mean anything by it. He's a Christian, after all. I'm sure he trusts Jesus to forgive him." No! If he murdered, then either he is not a Christian, or if he is, he is not in his right mind. (Can you have a "Christian" murderer?)
    Whether I would consider them a Christian or not is inconsequential. What is important is God's Word, if and His Spirit has sealed them or not. If we are judging whether or not someone is a Christian or not, that is up for another debate. But, that is not the matter of once saved always saved. The question is, if God has sealed you with the promise of Christ, can you lose His promise by work (whereby you did not attain it by works)? No, you cannot.This has nothing to do with if we *should not sin*. If it was, I would be saying, "we should not sin, Amen." The preaching of eternal salvation is not a license to sin, just as Paul says in Romans 6. Eternal salvation in Christ is simply the Truth of God. It is Christ's finished work on the cross. If you continue in sin, so be it, but it will be against sound doctrine and wisdom. Regardless of how many men and women want to justify salvation with works (which is legalism) it will never be. It is by grace, period.
    Romans 6:1-4"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life."
    Amen, we should not continue in sin... even though grace will and does abound, we should not continue in sin. Nevertheless, grace *does abound when sin abounds*. Once saved, always saved.IT IS NOT BY WORKS, lest any man boast. When we are unfaithful, he is faithful still.
     
  14. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Rudy;49116)
    Some people think they're a Christian when they're not. That is who Jesus is referring to, not just those who don't know Him at all.He is referring to those that He NEVER knew, period. Never knew. Not Christians who have lost salvation... because that would require Him to have once "knew" them. Never knew.It is a done deal, but a person can break his part of that deal.We could break the deal, but once we're saved... it's not about our deal keeping. It's about His promise to us. We are not saved by works. It is grace.
    2 Timothy 2:13If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself​
    Hebrews 6 does not say that it is referring to blasphemy; it does not mention blasphemy of the Holy Spirit anywhere in that passage. What it does say is that if you fall away from your salvation, then you have crucified "the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." That is the sin that is being referred to (falling away and crucifying Jesus again), not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. Where it mentions the Holy Spirit, the point is that they had fellowship with God and the Holy Spirit and then they fell away. It could be referring to the sin of blasphemy as it could be implied from the fact that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, but it doesn't specifically say that it is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit that is the sin being referred to. But if you look at the way it is worded, it seems that the reason that it is impossible to renew them again to repentance is because of crucifying Jesus again and putting Him to an open shame.
    "What it does say is that if you fall away from your salvation, then you have crucified "the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame."​
    That's not true at all. Nowhere does it say that it is speaking of anyone who lost salvation. It is speaking of those who were offered salvation, in Christ, and have blasphemed the Holy Spirit who has revealed it to him or her. We know this because this is the one unpardonable sin. All other sins will be forgiven man (even blaspheme against Christ Himself). The one sin that will not be forgiven is rejecting Christ when we are given the opertunity to be saved. This is not speaking of those who have been once saved. It can't be and it isn't.I interpret things from the finished work on the Cross--that we are saved by grace, through faith... and that (faith) which is not of our own. It is not by works, lest any man boast. If we can attain, keep, maintain, or lose our salvation with works, it is not by grace. It is by works, and this is legalism.
    My replies above in blue within your quote.Once you are saved, you are sealed. It is by His work, and His promise that our salvation is maintained--not our own.
    Gal 2:20 -- I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.​
    I live by the faith OF the Son of God -- not my faithfulness to Him. It is His faithfulness to me. This is how we now live. It is by grace, not by works... lest any man boast.
     
  15. Hope

    Hope New Member

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    (treeoflife;49084)
    When we are told to "repent", this is different than confess. Confess and repent are two different things. It is true, we are encouraged to confess our sins, both to God and to one another. And, it is good to confess our sins.However, repent (the kind we are told is necessary for salvation) means simply to turn... to change ones direction or mind. I changed my mind about who God was when I trusted Christ as my savior. People believe all kinds of things about God, but in order for them to come to Christ, one must first change their mind (repent) about who God is. I, and any other person who is saved, repented when I first recieved Christ and trusted Him as my messiah. Surely, confession of sin often follows suit when we change our mind about who God is and believe in Christ, no doubt! I certainly did. I couldn't stop confessing sin before Him. Nevertheless... confession and repentance are two different things, I am sure there is some sin I neglected to confess, even now. How about you? Is it possible that you have ANY unconfessed sin, right now? Not just the sin you know about, but sin you don't know about? If there is, in fact... unconfessed sin, and I still anticipate going to heaven... than it cannot be confessing sin that will get me there. It is Christ's work on the cross that I recieved when I first repented and believed.Nowhere does it teach that a person must continually confess new sin in order to hold onto their salvation, or even to attain it. We are to repent and believe.Give me time, and I will answer your scripture references. I must get ready for work now. [​IMG]
    Where does it say in the Bible "Once save ... period"?. Nowhere does it teach that in the Bible. On the other hand it does say:James 516Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.1 John 18If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.To repent you must understand what is sin. If you confess sin is a way of admiting you understand you sinned and you must repent from such sin.Once you asked for forgiveness for a sin IT IS ERASED. That means that the "next time you sin" it will be a new sin. If you say "Once save ... period" that means you never sin again and that is a LIE. Hope
     
  16. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Hope;49167)
    Where does it say in the Bible "Once save ... period"?. Nowhere does it teach that in the Bible. On the other hand it does say:James 516Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.1 John 18If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.To repent you must understand what is sin. If you confess sin is a way of admiting you understand you sinned and you must repent from such sin.Once you asked for forgiveness for a sin IT IS ERASED. That means that the "next time you sin" it will be a new sin. If you say "Once save ... period" that means you never sin again and that is a LIE. Hope
    Praise the Lord, I must say no. We are not required to confess our sin every single time we sin... or we are otherwise not forgiven (saved). That is profoundly false. This is the misunderstanding. You think that we have to confess our sins--every single one--otherwise we will not be forgiven. Such belief is wrong (God bless you), and nothing more than a legalistic works scented Gospel. Confession is good, amen. However, we attain salvation through Christ's work alone--believing in Him for it. I promise you that you have unconfessed sin at this very moment--specifically unmentioned and unconfessed. Nowhere are we taught a Gospel (which really is no Gospel at all) of works, where we must strive, and perfect ourselves in the flesh in order to attain salvation. We are given salvation by HIS WORK alone. Dear Hope... do not frustrate the Gospel of grace. Where does it say that once a person is saved, they are always saved? Oh dear... I will tell you. It is all over His Word and in His Work on the cross. Have you not understood the Gospel of Jesus Christ? It is the grace of God. It is the gift of eternal life by His work on the cross. If it is by His work, then His work is sufficient... if it is not by His work, then God help us all. Paul's works were as filthy rags... how much worse should I suspect my works are?Salvation is by His work, not ours. Period. Anyone who doesn't believe so needs to repent (change their mind) about who God is and reconsider the Gospel God has given us in Christ.
    Luke 12:8-10 "I tell you, whoever acknowledges me before men, the Son of Man will also acknowledge him before the angels of God. But he who disowns me before men will be disowned before the angels of God. And everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgivenMatthew 12:31-32:And so I tell you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come.​
    Now, Jesus says that whoever acknowledges Him before men, He will also acknowledge before the angels of God. Whoever disowns Him will be disowned before God. He then goes on to say that everyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man (Jesus Himself) will be forgiven, but anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven.So, does Jesus contridict Himself? Or, is the "denying Him" and consequently "acknowledging Him" before men something different than blaspheme against Him? Of course, they must be two different acts. One is forgivable (all blasphemes are), and Jesus doesn't contridict Himself. The blapheme of the Holy Spirit is the ONLY unpardonable sin. This is not acknowledging Jesus before men--IE, salvation."Believe in your heart and confess with your lips that Jesus Christ is Lord, and you will be saved."Whoever does not do that and refuses to believe on Him, by the prompting of the Holy Spirit, has commited THE ONLY UNPARDONABLE SIN .Author Dr. Henry Morris insightfully clarifies the true nature of Pharisees' sin: "The unforgivable sin of speaking against the Holy Spirit has been interpreted in various ways, but the true meaning cannot contradict other Scripture. It is unequivocally clear that the one unforgivable sin is permanently rejecting Christ (John 3:18; 3:36). Thus, speaking against the Holy Spirit is equivalent to rejecting Christ with such finality that no future repentance is possible. 'My spirit shall not always strive with man,' God said long ago (Genesis 6:3).If a man or woman has truly trusted Christ, at any time (and I do not debate here whether it was sincere or not... only that it was done) -- then they are saved; thus the only unpardonable sin cannot be committed. Praise the Lord, it's a done deal. For HIS GLORY, not our own. There is no more sacrifices for their sin... they can do no more or less. All forms of blasphemies will forgiven men, accept the one sin... blapheme against the Holy Spirit.
    Mark 3:28-29I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be forgiven them. But whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will never be forgiven; he is guilty of an eternal sin."​
    Is salvation by His work, or by our works? It is His work!Can a once saved soul lose their salvation? I say thankfully, Praise the Lord, no they cannot ever lose it.
    John 6:37-40All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day."​
    There is nothing that we can do to have Him turn us away. No, not ever, ever, ever.:amen::amen::blessyou:
     
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