Not sure why it matters whether those who come to Jesus got a little nudge from the Father without knowing it, or were drawn to Jesus on his own merits with no further nudging at all -- but either way, the issue we have been discussing, I thought, was about "coming to the Father" by means of forgiving others their transgressions. Either that is a way to get there or it isn't. Which do you say? [If there is any chance at all that you can answer without throwing in a Biblical quote, that would be great.]
Forgiveness Through Forgiving
- Thread starter RedFan
- Start date
-
Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.
You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
Bob Estey
Well-Known Member
When someone repents of their sin, there is no reason not to forgive them, is there?
It's a great question, Bob. I'd like to think that God would forgive any repentant sinner, simply by virtue of his/her contrite repentance alone. (There are many who post on this site who will object "Not without Christ's sacrifice on the cross He won't!")
You have two issues here.
How are we forgiven/forgive others?
and
What effect does forgiveness have?
How are we forgiven by God?
Through out the bible Gods forgiveness is conditional on repentance. The Israelites in worship had to take a sacrifice, lay there hand on it and kill it.
The act of taking a sacrifuce was an act of reptance.
In the giving of the Laws at Sini, God warned them of the consquence of disobeying him and told them what they would have to do. ' Turn from their wicked ways, that is repent.
God only forgives us on our repentance, he is our pattern. Those who offend/sin against us are to be forgiven on their repentance. Then we have no choice we Must forgive. No matter how often they offend us.
The unrepentant offender, we like Jesus on the cross, hand over to God for him to deal wth us, the offender etc.
Then we are to pray for them intelligently.
Does forgiveness have an effect?
Well it restores brocken relationships, is far better for one than harbouring recentment, but forgiveness has to be real. It cannot be manufactured, it is not a feel good fuzzy feeling.
So can a non christian, because they are forgiving get into heaven? Answer no.
Access to heaven is through faith in Jesus, not because someone is forgiving of others, it is whether there sins have been forgiven and that only happens if they have repented.
A Jew who both forgives others AND repents of his own sin is doomed unless he becomes a Christian, then? Is that your view?
There are two groups of people in the world.
Christian and non christian.
There are no other groups or types of people.
Agreed, but I'm missing your point. (There are two types of people in the world, redheads and non-redheads. There are two types of people in the world, football fans and non-football fans. And so on.)
So, are there any circumstances under which a non-Christian who sincerely repents of his sins, and forgives everyone who has ever wronged him, can be saved?
Behold
Well-Known Member
If forgiving others earns you God's forgiveness, then why was Jesus , the Son of God, sent to the Cross to be slaughtered for your sin?
My point exactly. The need for Christ's sacrifice is a reason to reject Matt. 6:14 as incorrect.
Behold
Well-Known Member
Jesus talking to Jews in the Old Testament, all these verses........ that Christ spoke, when He was ONLY SENT TO THE HOUSE OF ISRAEL. these verses have to be discerned in LIGHT of the CROSS., and IN LIGHT Of Paul's Doctrine.
Many things that Jesus said to the OT Jew, ... these same verses, dont apply to "The time of the gentiles" doctrinally, , as they applied to the OT Jew...."Under the Law".
This is just the most basic "how to rightly divide the word", teaching that a bible student has to be taught, the first day, first class.
As if they just jam all the verses together....OT and NT.....never "rightly dividing", then you get 40,000 denominations that can't agree on anything.
You get "christian" forums that are nests of heretics, denying the Cross, teaching Legalism.
You get "teachers" who could not even begin to explain the "Gospel of the Grace of God" or why Paul called it "MY Gospel".
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
It is truly an undeserved kindness for sure, sir. On the same token, and I thought it illustrated extremely well by Jesus when he gave this parable when Peter asked how many times he should forgive others:
(Matthew 18:23-35) . . .“That is why the Kingdom of the heavens may be likened to a king who wanted to settle accounts with his slaves. 24 When he started to settle them, a man was brought in who owed him 10,000 talents. 25 But because he did not have the means to pay it back, his master ordered him and his wife and his children and all the things he owned to be sold and payment to be made. 26 So the slave fell down and did obeisance to him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay back everything to you.’ 27 Moved with pity at this, the master of that slave let him off and canceled his debt. 28 But that slave went out and found one of his fellow slaves, who owed him 100 de·narʹi·i, and grabbed him and began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay back whatever you owe.’ 29 So his fellow slave fell down and began to beg him, saying, ‘Be patient with me, and I will pay you back.’ 30 However, he was not willing, but he went and had him thrown into prison until he could pay back what he owed. 31 When his fellow slaves saw what had happened, they became greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all the things that had happened. 32 Then his master summoned him and said to him: ‘Wicked slave, I canceled all that debt for you when you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have shown mercy to your fellow slave as I showed mercy to you?’ 34 With that his master, provoked to wrath, handed him over to the jailers until he repaid all that he owed. 35 My heavenly Father will also deal with you in the same way if each of you does not forgive your brother from your heart.”
Only if they have become a Christian. We are saved not because we somehow manage to forgive others, but because Jesus has forgiven us.
GRACE ambassador
Well-Known Member
You do realize, of course, that without God's Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided, that this Confuses Many:
In God's Context of prophecy/law:
Forgive others FIRST, THEN God Will Forgive!
(Matthew_6:14-15, 18:35; Mark_11:25-26; Luke_6:37)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
In God's Other Context Of Mystery/GRACE:
Forgive others Because CHRIST Has Already FORGIVEN us!
(Ephesians_4:32)
Correct?
FULL study:
17 Forgiveness Questions
------------------------------
Bible Answer To Confusing church Bewilderment!
GRACE And Peace...
Last edited:
Sir,
Not having taken a poll on the subject, I'm in no position to say what "Confuses Many."
No doubt we could separate "Forgive others FIRST, THEN God Will Forgive" (a result of our forgiveness of others) and "Forgive others Because Christ Has Already FORGIVEN us" (a reason for our forgiveness of others). But speaking for myself, I forgive others simply because it's the right thing to do. God asked this of his people in the OT, well before Christ forgave us (if that's the right rubric; numerous verses suggest it is the Father who forgives).
Anyway, the benefits of separating out "motive" and "effect" here are probably minor. There are hundreds of things in Scripture that we could spend our time "rightly dividing" (strange translation of ὀρθοτομοῦντα, don't you think? Likely some early Greek metaphor that Timothy would have picked up on. I'd suggest "properly understanding" as a better sense of Paul's meaning here). I have to believe that parsing motive from effect when it comes to forgiveness of others is low on the list. But if you have a point to make here about forgiveness, I'm happy to try to understand it if you want to be more specific. (I'd hate to be part of the "Many" who are "Confused" about something here!)
[If you will allow me a personal story: My father paid for my college education in full, so I wouldn't have to take out a loan. I told him I didn't know when I could pay him back. He said I could pay him back by doing the same for my kids someday. And that is what I did decades later when my son went to college. But I didn't do it because my father had done it for me, although that would surely have been reason enough. I did it because I love my son. Yes, God forgave me through the blood of Christ, surely reason enough for me to forgive others. But that doesn't need to be my motive.]
Not having taken a poll on the subject, I'm in no position to say what "Confuses Many."
No doubt we could separate "Forgive others FIRST, THEN God Will Forgive" (a result of our forgiveness of others) and "Forgive others Because Christ Has Already FORGIVEN us" (a reason for our forgiveness of others). But speaking for myself, I forgive others simply because it's the right thing to do. God asked this of his people in the OT, well before Christ forgave us (if that's the right rubric; numerous verses suggest it is the Father who forgives).
Anyway, the benefits of separating out "motive" and "effect" here are probably minor. There are hundreds of things in Scripture that we could spend our time "rightly dividing" (strange translation of ὀρθοτομοῦντα, don't you think? Likely some early Greek metaphor that Timothy would have picked up on. I'd suggest "properly understanding" as a better sense of Paul's meaning here). I have to believe that parsing motive from effect when it comes to forgiveness of others is low on the list. But if you have a point to make here about forgiveness, I'm happy to try to understand it if you want to be more specific. (I'd hate to be part of the "Many" who are "Confused" about something here!)
[If you will allow me a personal story: My father paid for my college education in full, so I wouldn't have to take out a loan. I told him I didn't know when I could pay him back. He said I could pay him back by doing the same for my kids someday. And that is what I did decades later when my son went to college. But I didn't do it because my father had done it for me, although that would surely have been reason enough. I did it because I love my son. Yes, God forgave me through the blood of Christ, surely reason enough for me to forgive others. But that doesn't need to be my motive.]
We will be judged as we have judged. It's like having a handicap in golf. If our heart is right in our dealings with others then God sees that as being righteous. Very few will be ready to be judged on the scale of a saint. Most will have to be compared with the standard of loving others as ourselves. The righteous are scarcely saved....and the saints are abundantly saved. But there is a vast difference to how each group will be judged.
Similar threads
