I would say that God is Father of all, believers and unbelievers alike. (And he has many prodigal sons these days, sad to say . . .)
Forgiveness Through Forgiving
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I would say that God is Father of all, believers and unbelievers alike. (And he has many prodigal sons these days, sad to say . . .)
But if you reject Christ, and still have all your sins forgiven you surely can enter Heaven. For the difference between a believer and unbeliever is the believer has a saviour from sin. Would we really believe those who reject Christ could be entitled to enter Heaven? A Christians righteousness is faith in the Son of God
Yup. But that fact doesn't exclude the possibility that a NON-Christian's righteousness can come about in another manner. Perhaps Matt. 6:14 is suggesting one.
I think we had better leave it there. In my view, from a biblical view point you cannot reject Christ and enter Heaven, for I believe there is only one righteousness before God if we have had the opportunity to hear of Christ. And I have given my view of Matt6:14. If you believe there are verses to suggest anyone who rejects Christ can enter heaven, why not start a new thread on the subject rather than derail this one
Well, it is my post, so I don't think it's being derailed. I'm simply suggesting that if Matt. 6:14 is true, then someone "who rejects Christ can enter heaven" by forgiving others because there is no such qualification found in the verse -- nor in its context.
Robert Gwin
Well-Known Member
Great question sir, it is a condition of forgiveness, but the Bible needs to be taken as a whole. Likely most believe that forgiveness of our sins will equate to salvation, one of those being myself. Forgiveness of sins is but one part of the requirements for salvation as I am sure you would agree.
this, then, is how you should pray:
“‘Our Father in heaven,
hallowed be your name,
10 your kingdom come,
your will be done,
on earth as it is in heaven.
11 Give us today our daily bread.
12 And forgive us our debts,
as we also have forgiven our debtors.
13 And lead us not into temptation,
but deliver us from the evil one.’
14 For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15 But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins
I think we need to read the whole segment, not just take one verse in isolation, Jesus is telling people how they should pray, and in their prayers they should ask to be forgiven as they have forgiven others. Verse 14 follows on from that. Jesus is speaking to people who follow God in that segment, not people who have rejected him or his Son. And they have a heavenly Father
Fair point. But I am sure you would agree that the verse appears to announce a sufficient condition (as opposed to merely a necessary one) for God’s forgiveness of our offenses.
I imagine that many gathered at the Mount hadn't yet made up their minds on accepting or rejecting Jesus, but you are surely right that Jesus was speaking to people who follow God, namely Jews. And perhaps that is the context we need to focus on in interpreting the verse so that we don't fall into the error of viewing it in isolation.
Other parts of the Sermon on the Mount are consistent with the unconditional nature of Matt. 6:14. (See in particular Matt. 5:7, “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.”) But the one exception is Matt. 5:23-24, which instructs that anyone presenting a sin offering who suddenly remembers an injury done to another should drop his gift, seek out and be reconciled to the other, and then return to offer the gift. This suggests that God’s forgiveness depended on both sin offering and reconciliation among the Jews themselves as an essential part of the process. And it squares well with first century Jewish notions of forgiveness on the Day of Atonement as a three-step process: sin offering, repentance, and forgiveness of each other. All three were considered essential, I am told by my Jewish friends.
But Matt5:23&24 refers again to people in covenant. And in Matt5:7 who is Christ speaking to? People who have rejected him or people who want to listen to him and follow him?
Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God John1:12 Children of God have a heavenly Father.
Everybody has a heavenly Father, whether they "receive him" and "believe in his name" or not.
I'm not sure I would agree in the context of what is being written. Those who accept Christ are children of God, not those who reject him. In this way they have a Heavenly Father who cares about them
Matt6:14 relates to people who pray to God
There is no way to the Father but through the son, according to Christ.
There is a judge for the one who rejects me and does not accept my words; the very words I have spoken will condemn them at the last day. John12:48
Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on them. John3:36
Whoever listens to you listens to me; whoever rejects you rejects me; but whoever rejects me rejects him who sent me.” Luke10:16
It seems clear to me
If you are willing to grant that one who hasn't rejected Christ (perhaps because he hasn't heard of him and had the opportunity to accept or reject) can still be saved, then perhaps we can frame the question this way: Given that the sacrifice of Christ was a requirement of our forgiveness, is there only one way -- faith in him -- to appropriate the salvific benefits of that sacrifice? Or are there other ways to do so (like forgiving others, if we take Matt. 6:14 literally)?
I believe they are two very different cases. The person who has never heard of Christ cannot reject him. I quoted from Rom 2:14&15. Paul states those without the law can have the law in their hearts. Safe to asume if you do not have the law you have not read a bible, and the likelihood is you have then never heard of Christ. If the law is in your heart, you are in a saved state for that is where the law has been placed under the new covenant. Some term it special dispensation(I think) However, to know of Christ and wilfully reject him, in my view is very different, and to me, the bible is clear as to what that means
So, are you modifying your comment "There is no way to the Father but through the son" into "Except for someone who has never heard of Christ and therefore cannot reject him, there is no way to the Father but through the son"?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Joh_14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Only ONE way.
J.
For those who have never heard of Christ. If the law is in your heart, you must be in covenant. Jesus is with you, even if you do not recognise him
Well, sure, but that doesn't get us very far in answering the question posed by the OP. Can't Jesus decide whom he will allow to "cometh unto the Father," and under what circumstances? What prevents him from deciding that those who forgive others will be forgiven their own sins and be allowed to "cometh unto the Father"?
Johann
Well-Known Member
Joh_6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
Makes sense, does it not?
J.
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