Forgiveness vs Atonement

[CadyandZoe]

That is the biblical definition....reconciliation with a HOLY God.


You are leaving out holiness.

Holiness is not moral goodness as you suppose. The term "holy" means "set apart" by God for a specific purpose. If God has set a man or woman aside for salvation, we say that he or she has been "sanctified" or "consecrated." Those whom he has sanctified he pours out his Holy Spirit into their heart. In this manner, the Holy Spirit sets out to renew the heart and mind of the "sanctified one" and because of this, goodness and right living naturally follow from that.

Atonement is different. Jesus' death on the cross made reconciliation possible. Contrary to some commentators, "atonement" is not Jesus paying for our sins. Rather, at the cross God was reconciling the world to himself. Paul, arguing from the lessor to the greater, reminds his readers that if God reconciled the world to himself while we were yet his enemies, what will he do for us now that we are his friends if not bless us with eternal life.

Righteous is as righteous does. No one who practices unrighteousness is deemed righteous by God.

No one who practices unrighteousness has been sanctified by God.

 

[Episkopos]

Yes, willful sins are not quite the same as inadvertent sins, however any sin we are aware of that we have committed needs to be repented of.

That's not what willfull sins consist of. God knows our weakness. All people are weak. The problem is with our strength...our strength to do what you are doing...resisting the truth. Remaining in unbelief. Our resisting going to God...going to the cross...excusing our sins and maintaining a facade of religious certainty that denies God's power.

Once repented of it is forgiven and brought under the blood same as the sins we sinned prior to knowing the Lord. To my understanding, I believe the tense in that verse is "if we KEEP ON willfully sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins." I don't believe it means if a believer commits one willful sin they are necessarily rejected for that. But someone who keeps on willfully sinning after coming to knowledge of the truth becomes reprobate and rejected.

Yes. I see that kind of resistance ALL THE TIME. Why won't believers have faith anymore? They have believed a decoy gospel...a scheme of men. They do not go to the Father to be accepted into the Beloved...no, they name and claim and assume they are rich and in need of nothing. They justify themselves because of their beliefs ABOUT Jesus. This is the time of the Laodiceans. But who can discern the sign of the times?

That is not the same as inadvertent sins or sins one commits from lack of knowledge and instruction. I believe the Lord gives people time to learn and be instructed after coming to faith.

Of course God is patient with us spoiled and stubborn bourgeois Westerners. But God will not always strive with man...or women.

 

[Ritajanice]

Not so. Baptism in the Spirit involves going to God and being put under the shadow of His wings in a full measure of grace. When someone is baptized in the Spirit they are filled to overflowing with His power and life

Scripture please?

You must be Born Again!!....where does God say, going to God and being put under the shadow of his wings in a full measure of grace?....is being Born Again?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Are you saying that Jesus only saves at a future date? In your scheme is there ANOTHER covenant coming to take away the sins of Jacob?

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

No

I am saying as paul said, there will be a time on earth when all of Isreal. those blinded and those not, will repent and come to jesus, and all Israel will be saved..

God will remove their sin of unbelief.. its why they repent. just as the prophets said they would

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Scripture please?

You must be Born Again!!....where does God say, going to God and being put under the shadow of his wings in a full measure of grace?....is being Born Again?

the more he talks. the more confused I know he is..

 

[Ritajanice]

the more he talks. the more confused I know he is..

Amen!!.....

 

[Episkopos]

Holiness is not moral goodness as you suppose.

What do you know about what I "suppose". You have no understanding of this or what you purport to know about concerning spiritual things.

The term "holy" means "set apart" by God for a specific purpose.

That's an OT definition. In the NT it means to be holy and perfect as God is..through the resurrection power of Christ.

If God has set a man or woman aside for salvation, we say that he or she has been "sanctified" or "consecrated."

You are confusing being set apart for a task...like taking a message somewhere, and walking in the perfection of Christ. God uses less than holy people to do His will.

Those whom he has sanctified he pours out his Holy Spirit into their heart. In this manner, the Holy Spirit sets out to renew the heart and mind of the "sanctified one" and because of this, goodness and right living naturally follow from that.

It's the other way round. One is never sanctified without being filled with God's Spirit.

Atonement is different. Jesus' death on the cross made reconciliation possible. Contrary to some commentators, "atonement" is not Jesus paying for our sins. Rather, at the cross God was reconciling the world to himself. Paul, arguing from the lessor to the greater, reminds his readers that if God reconciled the world to himself while we were yet his enemies, what will he do for us now that we are his friends if not bless us with eternal life.

Sure.

No one who practices unrighteousness has been sanctified by God.

That's not so. Many who have tasted of the power of the life to come go back to their sins like a dog returns to its vomit.

And many more have tasted a sample of grace and then, rather than going to God to buy the full product....the full measure of grace that overcomes the flesh, the devil and the world...they are seeking to build on something that is already in them in their UNCRUCIFIED state ...rather than go to God and find a power that is fully outside themselves. The parable is so true about buying the field that the treasure is found in. But people only want what is free...and makes no demands on their allegiance.

We are not special...God is.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Yes, the bible has reached into the Great White North....igloo territory. As you can see we also have electricity and internet. A lot of it is powered by polar bears chasing seals on a treadmill.


Yes...unless one is indoctrinated into an American style gospel.

I think so. But human certainty is not the same as spiritual discernment. Human certainly functions like a monkey chasing after its own tail in a treadmill of the mind.

What I wrote was in reply to someone blaming your theology on America.
It offends me.

When in fact all false teachers, wherever they may be found, have their own human, carnal interpretation within their own understanding and back clapping of " oh what a wise boy I am" !

I do not buy into any loud mouthpiece of " this is what I think it means", forsaking what God says !

Most definitely, the truth of the word of God has penetrated even the most primitive of societies; yet the darkness of the heart of man keeps resisting the light of God's word!

John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

 

[amigo de christo]

Scripture please?

You must be Born Again!!....where does God say, going to God and being put under the shadow of his wings in a full measure of grace?....is being Born Again?

Notice WHOSE NAME was not PUT IN THERE . the last time i checked ONE HAD TO BELIEVE IN that NAME TO BE BORN AGAIN
or was BORN AGAIN . JESUS CHRIST is being omitted as having to be BELIEVE UPON .
And rather the idea is being sold that all religoins follow the same God so long as they just love one another .
That be a lie from the dragon . SO again i am gonna say it
I KNOW WHO SAVES AND ITS HE I SHALL POINT TOO . BELIEVE YE IN JESUS CHRIST .

 

[Episkopos]

What I wrote was in reply to someone blaming your theology on America.
It offends me.

Who did that? You didn't answer anyone...just posted without any quotes.

When in fact all false teachers, wherever they may be found, have their own human, carnal interpretation within their own understanding and back clapping of " oh what a wise boy I am" !

It just so happens that America has that kind of human freedom and "know-how" to capitalize on a scheme that brings advancement in profits and the like. So America is a perfect storm to spread a decoy version of the truth. And it being so rich...it is sure to HATE the truth that is according to humility and the fear of the Lord.

I do not buy into any loud mouthpiece of " this is what I think it means", forsaking what God says !

Amen.

Most definitely, the truth of the word of God has penetrated even the most primitive of societies; yet the darkness of the heart of man keeps resisting the light of God's word!

True. Even in the primitive society here in Canada we rely a lot on whatever comes to us from south of the border. That is...unless we have actual knowledge of God. Apparently God's rule over the whole world includes Canada. Who'd a thunk it, eh?

John 3:19-21
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.

20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.

21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

Amen. We are to GO to the light...go to God, with a willing surrender to do His will...and exchange the power of the flesh for the power of the Spirit. People HATE the truth. Any way to avoid the cross...will have millions of followers. God has seen to it that there are many versions of the lie...so that no one group takes over the world...think Babylon. But the demise of Babylon is coming soon.

May the Lord be praised in Zion and wherever people who fear His name gather themselves.

 

[amigo de christo]

Who did that? You didn't answer anyone...just posted without any quotes.


It just so happens that America has that kind of human freedom and "know-how" to capitalize on a scheme that brings advancement in profits and the like. So America is a perfect storm to spread a decoy version of the truth. And it being so rich...it is sure to HATE the truth that is according to humility and the fear of the Lord.

Amen.


True. Even in the primitive society in Canada we rely a lot on whatever comes to us from south of the border. That is...unless we have actual knowledge of God.

Amen. We are to GO to the light...go to God, with a willing surrender to do His will...and exchange the power of the flesh for the power of the Spirit. People HATE the truth. Any way to avoid the cross...will have millions of followers. God has seen to it that there are many versions of the lie...so that no one group takes over the world...think Babylon. But the demise of Babylon is coming soon.

May the Lord be praised in Zion and wherever people who fear His name gather themselves.

There is but one way to GOD . And i aint seen you using that NAME or saying YE MUST FIRST BELIEVE ON HIM .
Any reasons for that epi . Oh wait i still remember what you told me about buddists and muslims and other religoins .
just a friendly reminder that those religoins are all false as well as new age as well as many ideals of men .
IF a man believeth not on JESUS CHRIST , hears and rejects Him , Lets just say it will be worse for them on the day of judgment
than ever it was for sodom .
How about continous reminders of the dire necessity to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST , and as i often say
IT better be the biblical one . cause many even within christendom might lip His name
but their works , their fruits are proving it to be ALL IN VAIN , that indeed they do NOT KNOW HIM .
EVEN THEy are fast to agree with inclusvism too . the lie that has been sent to unify all religoins and peoples
to be as one , UNDER what they think is love and who they think is GOD . BUT IT BE THE DRAGON .

 

[Episkopos]

Scripture please?

You must be Born Again!!....where does God say, going to God and being put under the shadow of his wings in a full measure of grace?....is being Born Again?

You have what is called an idée fixe. All you have been programmed to think is...Born-again....Born-again....Born-again...bleep bleep. Repeat, repeat, repeat... bleep.

Were you born of a woman? Do you have a mother? If so, do you constantly justify any human action by saying...I am born of a woman you know...I was born of a woman... etc... Yes yes...so you are human. congratulations. And you are a Christian? Great..more congratulations. Now can you try following along with something other than a new birth announcement?

And I never said that coming under the shadow of His wings is the same as being born again. You are stuck at the very beginning of a baby Christian...IF... you are not just born again.... American style.

Baby believers are cute. Indoctrinated permanently immature believers are NOT cute. You can justify yourself all you want. But God judges.

 

[CadyandZoe]

You are confusing a righteous restitution with atonement. If restitution was all that was required to have intimacy with a holy God..then the law of Moses would have sufficed...no need for Jesus to die to provide us a new and living way to have fellowship with the Father.

I respectfully disagree. God didn't command Israel to sacrifice a bull because Israel stole God's bull. He wasn't asking for his bull back.

Please don't try teaching way above your actual knowledge and experience as so many do here...

Are you telling me to shut up? I disagree with you so I am wrong? Do you hear what you are saying or no?

Good luck with that.

 

[Episkopos]

I respectfully disagree. God didn't command Israel to sacrifice a bull because Israel stole God's bull. He wasn't asking for his bull back.

That's a lot of bull.

Are you telling me to shut up? I disagree with you so I am wrong? Do you hear what you are saying or no?

Good luck with that.

I'm asking you to try understanding before posting. Otherwise you know what assuming does.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Who did that? You didn't answer anyone...just posted without any quotes.


It just so happens that America has that kind of human freedom and "know-how" to capitalize on a scheme that brings advancement in profits and the like. So America is a perfect storm to spread a decoy version of the truth. And it being so rich...it is sure to HATE the truth that is according to humility and the fear of the Lord.

Amen.


True. Even in the primitive society in Canada we rely a lot on whatever comes to us from south of the border. That is...unless we have actual knowledge of God.

Amen. We are to GO to the light...go to God, with a willing surrender to do His will...and exchange the power of the flesh for the power of the Spirit. People HATE the truth. Any way to avoid the cross...will have millions of followers. God has seen to it that there are many versions of the lie...so that no one group takes over the world...think Babylon. But the demise of Babylon is coming soon.

May the Lord be praised in Zion and wherever people who fear His name gather themselves.

Lol.
I do not address this poster in anyway, except to make my own statement in rebuttal.

Do you not read all the post on your thread or just pick & choose whom you want to scuttlebutt with ?

I SUBMIT TO YOU IT IS NOT ONE SECTION OF THIS WORLD........BUT ALL THE CESSPOOLS OF THE WORLD THAT PRODUCE FALSE TEACHERS ! The decoys of the truth are antichrists and belong unto their father of lies, and they are many & widespread. Individuals, not churches, denominations, nor countries, hold the knowledge of the truth of God's word.
Any that " lack" do so by their own violation of not studying the word.

Just bc you're a baby nation of 156 yrs, do NOT presume you receive sustenance from America. Are you not under the Kings rules and clutches?
Romans 14:
12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

 

[amigo de christo]

America as is canada as is the UK and scores of others all under the influence of sie elites . Let us remember that well .
ITS LIKE sister lambs says , TIME TO GET IN THE BIBLE .

 

[L.A.M.B.]

You have what is called an idée fixe. All you have been programmed to think is...Born-again....Born-again....Born-again...bleep bleep. Repeat, repeat, repeat... bleep.

Were you born of a woman? Do you have a mother? If so, do you constantly justify any human action by saying...I am born of a woman you know...I was born of a woman... etc... Yes yes...so you are human. congratulations. And you are a Christian? Great..more congratulations. Now can you try following along with something other than a new birth announcement?

And I never said that coming under the shadow of His wings is the same as being born again. You are stuck at the very beginning of a baby Christian...IF... you are not just born again.... American style.

Baby believers are cute. Indoctrinated permanently immature believers are NOT cute. You can justify yourself all you want. But God judges.

Lol. I agree with your assessment of this needle stuck on record poster!
However I resent the fact you stated American style " born again".
Move on, for Canada has its many flaws as well in societal promotions.

 

[Episkopos]

There is but one way to GOD . And i aint seen you using that NAME or saying YE MUST FIRST BELIEVE ON HIM .
Any reasons for that epi .

Let's see..do we pray to Odin? Hmmm...no. Do we pray to Confucius? No. What about Godzilla? No! King Kong? No...what about Jesus YES....ding ding ding.

Are you satisfied that I can correctly say we are to pray to Jesus?

Do I need to simplify even more for you?

Oh wait i still remember what you told me about buddists and muslims and other religoins .
just a friendly reminder that those religoins are all false as well as new age as well as many ideals of men .

That is a shock! What..there are other religions in the world? What? How do you know this? You seem to be well informed. You must have a very big brain to understand these things so well.

IF a man believeth not on JESUS CHRIST , hears and rejects Him , Lets just say it will be worse for them on the day of judgment
than ever it was for sodom .

You mean like not believing in Odin...etc...What about the tooth faity...You NEVER speak against the tooth fairy...why not? What about the Easter bunny? Nothing. you never never talk about the dire need to not believe in the Easter bunny? I wonder why that is..

How about continous reminders of the dire necessity to BELIEVE ON JESUS CHRIST ,

Why don't we just post the same thing over and over again...on a loop..that way you don't jave to go to the trouble of saying the same things over and over...no matter what is being discussed.

and as i often say

If you do say so yourself...

IT better be the biblical one . cause many even within christendom might lip His name
but their works , their fruits are proving it to be ALL IN VAIN , that indeed they do NOT KNOW HIM .
EVEN THEy are fast to agree with inclusvism too . the lie that has been sent to unify all religoins and peoples
to be as one , UNDER what they think is love and who they think is GOD . BUT IT BE THE DRAGON .

Your exclusivism is just like the Pharisees. Do you get extra marks for condemning others?

 

[CadyandZoe]

What do you know about what I "suppose". You have no understanding of this or what you purport to know about concerning spiritual things.

I am not threatened by your attempt at intimidation. Why do you speak of "spiritual things" like it's a secret code between you and your followers?

That's an OT definition. In the NT it means to be holy and perfect as God is..through the resurrection power of Christ.

I've heard this before. In times past it was called "The Holiness Movement" or "Keswick" theology. Today we call it "Star Wars" theology the idea that one must "use the force" (appropriate the Holy Spirit) to walk in holiness, without sin. It doesn't work and it never has. The honest among us leave that situation behind. Those caught up in this cult make excuses for sin, denying that they sin, so as to bolster a narrative contrary to Biblical teaching. I have heard such people say, "W don't sin. We simply make mistakes. God is not going to blame us for making mistakes, is he?"

You are confusing being set apart for a task...like taking a message somewhere, and walking in the perfection of Christ.

No, I am denying your perspective that one can "walk in the perfection of Christ." And I take issue with your definitions because by these you misconstrue the scriptures to support your narrative.

God uses less than holy people to do His will.

There is no such thing as "less than holy." Holiness is not a thing to be measured. Either God has chosen someone or he didn't.

We are not special...God is.

For some of us, both are true.

 

[Episkopos]

Lol.
I do not address this poster in anyway, except to make my own statement in rebuttal.

Do you not read all the post on your thread or just pick & choose whom you want to scuttlebutt with ?

I have a lot of posters on ignore.

I SUBMIT TO YOU IT IS NOT ONE SECTION OF THIS WORLD........BUT ALL THE CESSPOOLS OF THE WORLD THAT PRODUCE FALSE TEACHERS ! The decoys of the truth are antichrists and belong unto their father of lies, and they are many & widespread. Individuals, not churches, denominations, nor countries, hold the knowledge of the truth of God's word.
Any that " lack" do so by their own violation of not studying the word.

Just bc you're a baby nation of 156 yrs, do NOT presume you receive sustenance from America. Are you not under the Kings rules and clutches?
Romans 14:
12] So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God.

No way? We expect America to defend us so that we can spend our money on free healthcare.