Forgiveness vs Atonement

[amigo de christo]

Yes, we are watching what is happening to you and yours.

See, the Cross make no allowances for your Book of Mormon "higher walk in Zion"....theology.
Not today, not ever.

But you can continue to pretend to know what you are doing.
Its what you do.

It aint just in mormons . its mother cometh from the first state church that claimed
it was THE CHURCH . inclusivism has been around and now grows big time .
My advice is we stick to the bible . For er word of the LORD is our meat .

 

[Eternally Grateful]

So you are saying that the Israelites were just claiming to be God's people...but weren't? Is this from a psychologist' point of view? Or the bible?

And since you are ignoring the bible...is it My people perish for lack of knowledge? Or those who SAY they are My people perish for lack of knowledge.

Do you claim also to be among God's people? Or maybe you wouldn't want to be lumped in with others who say that?

Was all of Israel saved? even those who crucified christ and died in unbelief?

 

[amigo de christo]

Amen. Problem with a "just love and do good gospel" is that the so called righteousness of man falls short of the glory.......one reason why mankind needs the Saviour.....because the only righteousness that is accepted and worthy of heaven is the righteousness of Christ. Which one can only receive through FAITH IN HIM. Really that is what it means where it says His laws are written on our hearts...we've received a new heart/spirit that bears the righteousness of Christ.

So a "newborn" child though not yet mature, absolutely still bears the image of its father and belongs to His family...but as children its vital that we grow up from there.

And now for a simple reminder . Is one even a child of GOD if they reject the true gospel .
That be a serious problem . IF any cometh and tries to short cut and omit the original gospel
Well just remember , NO lamb would do that .
And though many can holler we have , we have the SPIRIT , ye are carnal , ye are carnal .
LET us remember that the SPIRIT testifies of JESUS CHRIST not our own abilities .
The SPIRIT of prophecy is THE TESTIMONY OF .................drum roll.................
THE TESTIMONY OF JESUS CHRIST . so how come so many try and testify of our own cross , or our own way to GOD .
Cause the SPIRIT would have testified of JESUS CHRIST . THE SPIRIT would have brought what to our remebrance
HIS WORDS . HIS . not men gone wrong , BUT HIS REMINDERS . Just a super duper friendly reminder
to all that even Breathes . I am wore out with false gospels of a false love that will save none
and TRODS JESUS and the DIRE NEED to believe on HIM under foot .

 

[Episkopos]

Was all of Israel saved? even those who crucified christ and died in unbelief?

Wrong question. All Israel will be saved.


And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Wrong question. All Israel will be saved.

Yes they will, at a future date.

but we are talking about the hebrews spoken to by the author..

You brought it up

 

[Episkopos]

Yes they will, at a future date.

but we are talking about the hebrews spoken to by the author..

You brought it up

Are you saying that Jesus only saves at a future date? In your scheme is there ANOTHER covenant coming to take away the sins of Jacob?

And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

 

[ChristisGod]

Here is truth that will get religious posers in a snit.

When you get a sample of something (like grace at regeneration)...it is free...no cost. When you desire the product to the point where you go to the company that produces the product to BUY it...THEN you become known to the company. Otherwise the free sample does not put you in contact with the company at all. No...samples are handed out liberally.

How many will claim to know God based on the sample? many. But these cannot help but be rejected...I never knew you....because they never went to get the full measure of grace.

Being baptized in the Spirit is a reward for seeking God with a full surrender...just like any subsequent filling by the Spirit.

baptism of the spirit happens at regeneration when one of born again.

Matthew 3
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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[Episkopos]

baptism of the spirit happens at regeneration when one of born again.

Matthew 3
“I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me comes one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

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Not so. Baptism in the Spirit involves going to God and being put under the shadow of His wings in a full measure of grace. When someone is baptized in the Spirit they are filled to overflowing with His power and life.

Many today...maybe because they don't visit people physically anymore ...don't know the difference between someone visiting you and going to visit them. They see Christ living (visiting) inside a person the same as living (visiting) where He is.

Kids nowadays...

 

[ChristisGod]

Not so. Baptism in the Spirit involves going to God and being put under the shadow of His wings in a full measure of grace. When someone is baptized in the Spirit they are filled to overflowing with His power and life.

Many today...maybe because they don't visit people physically anymore ...don't know the difference between someone visiting you and going to visit them. They see Christ living (visiting) inside a person the same as living (visiting) where He is.

Kids nowadays...

Nope in Acts it happens at salvation.

And confirmed here

1 Corinthians 12:13 states: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

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[Episkopos]

Nope in Acts it happens at salvation.

And confirmed here

1 Corinthians 12:13 states: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

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Note to beginner bible readers. Corinthians is NOT Acts. In Acts those who were baptized in Jesus name still had to have hands laid on them to receive the baptism of the Spirit.

THIS is from Acts (Notice this is NOT Corinthians for you bible enthusiasts out there)

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

 

[ChristisGod]

Note to beginner bible readers. Corinthians is NOT Acts. In Acts those who were baptized in Jesus name still had to have hands laid on them to receive the baptism of the Spirit.

THIS is from Acts (Notice this is NOT Corinthians for you bible enthusiasts out there)

Acts 8:16 (For as yet he was fallen upon none of them: only they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.)

yes water baptism saves no one. still equivocating I see.

note to so called bible teachers.......................

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[CadyandZoe]

Yes, I believe we are reconciled to God - through the reconciliation of the debt (which is one definition of what atonement means). Agree that we couldn't reconcile that debt, but only the perfect spotless sinless Lamb of God could and did on behalf of all who would believe in Him.

Okay, but may I offer an illustration that characterizes the idea of "atonement"?

Debbie and Sam are playing in the house. Father already commanded the children to never to run in the house. But as play increased, Debbie tripped and upset an expensive vase. The vase was ruined and Debbie felt very sorry, especially as Father expressed his anger very sternly. ​

​

After an hour or so, Debbie went outside and picked some lovely flowers, brought them into the house, put them into a glass of water and said, "Here Dad. I'm so sorry I broke the vase." Dad was touched so deeply and his feelings for his daughter were so warm and he was so impressed with her overture, that he smiled and forgave her. ​

At this point, we can ask some questions. What did the flowers represent? Did the flowers replace the Vase? No. Did Debbie give Father money to replace the vase? No. Did Sam give Dad money on his daughter's behalf? No. Did Dad pay for the Vase? No. Nobody paid for the vase or replaced it.

The flowers represented a peace offering in light of Debbie's contrition. She is sorry for breaking the vase. She is sorry for disobeying his proscription against running in the house. She senses that her behavior has placed emotional distance between her and her father. In her childlike way, she asks herself, "What can I do to regain my father's favor?"

Father decided to accept his daughter's peace offering and to reestablish intimacy and friendliness between himself and his daughter because he loves her. Father didn't punish anyone for what she did. He didn't punish is daughter, he didn't punish his son. He forgave her and restored the relationship for his own reasons, which weren't punitive. The flowers were the atonement offering.

 

[L.A.M.B.]

Epi is NOT in America but in Canada. Let's not be knocking regions where ppl live over ppl's belief system.

The word is simple, plain and readily available to any to read and search out the scrips.
What one promotes, endorses or believes shows whether church indoctrination or lack of a personal relationship to God by the study of his word to show the worker, himself, approved of God, is evident !

It is easily seen by the words written who believes & follows God and who it is that follows men!

 

[Episkopos]

Okay, but may I offer an illustration that characterizes the idea of "atonement"?

Debbie and Sam are playing in the house. Father already commanded the children to never to run in the house. But as play increased, Debbie tripped and upset an expensive vase. The vase was ruined and Debbie felt very sorry, especially as Father expressed his anger very sternly. ​

​

After an hour or so, Debbie went outside and picked some lovely flowers, brought them into the house, put them into a glass of water and said, "Here Dad. I'm so sorry I broke the vase." Dad was touched so deeply and his feelings for his daughter were so warm and he was so impressed with her overture, that he smiled and forgave her. ​

At this point, we can ask some questions. What did the flowers represent? Did the flowers replace the Vase? No. Did Debbie give Father money to replace the vase? No. Did Sam give Dad money on his daughter's behalf? No. Did Dad pay for the Vase? No. Nobody paid for the vase or replaced it.

The flowers represented a peace offering in light of Debbie's contrition. She is sorry for breaking the vase. She is sorry for disobeying his proscription against running in the house. She senses that her behavior has placed emotional distance between her and her father. In her childlike way, she asks herself, "What can I do to regain my father's favor?"

Father decided to accept his daughter's peace offering and to reestablish intimacy and friendliness between himself and his daughter because he loves her. Father didn't punish anyone for what she did. He didn't punish is daughter, he didn't punish his son. He forgave her and restored the relationship for his own reasons, which weren't punitive. The flowers were the atonement offering.

You are confusing a righteous restitution with atonement. If restitution was all that was required to have intimacy with a holy God..then the law of Moses would have sufficed...no need for Jesus to die to provide us a new and living way to have fellowship with the Father.

We are to restore fourfold what we have stolen...according to the law of Moses. This is based on righteousness...not holiness. It is a standard of righteousness that Gd's people adopt to show that they fear God. It also teaches others to fear God.

2 Samuel 12:6​

“And he shall restore the lamb fourfold, because he did this thing, and because he had no pity.”


Ex. 22 If a man shall steal an ox, or a sheep, and kill it, or sell it; he shall restore five oxen for an ox, and four sheep for a sheep.




Please don't try teaching way above your actual knowledge and experience as so many do here...

Time to pick some flowers.

 

[amigo de christo]

Wrong question. All Israel will be saved.


And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

But still not all of israel IS ISRAEL . any and all who denied JESUS CHRIST
who taught things or gave ideas that we had no dire need to believe on HIM
will not be saved but will face the wrath of GOD .
IF you know anyone like that , you might holler to them TO REPENT asap of this other social gospel lie from hades
and to return to the one true gospel of BELIEVE YE IN CHRIST JESUS .
and ps , IT had better be the one in the bible . Because if the one we call JESUS
contradicts the WORDS of JESUS in that bible , i got a newflash , IT AINT JESUS CHRIST and it wont save one soul .
TIME to put inclusivity to death and time to preach as did CHRIST and the apostles the DIRE NEED TO BELIEVE ON CHRIST JESUS
and THEN teach folks about HIS teachings . ALL oF HIS words . ALL of them . lets not pick and choose
but rather teach ALL things HE and later the apostels did teach . Cause pickers and choosers
be in dire and deadly grave danger . FORTHEY followed at most another jesus . AND as i said that one cannot save them .
SO if you know of anyone who follows or believes in inclusivism , TELL THEM with great urgency that it is a lie
And rather preach the one true gospel .

 

[Episkopos]

Epi is NOT in America but in Canada. Let's not be knocking regions where ppl live over ppl's belief system.

Yes, the bible has reached into the Great White North....igloo territory. As you can see we also have electricity and internet. A lot of it is powered by polar bears chasing seals on a treadmill.

The word is simple, plain and readily available to any to read and search out the scrips.

Yes...unless one is indoctrinated into an American style gospel.

What one promotes, endorses or believes shows whether church indoctrination or lack of a personal relationship to God by the study of his word to show the worker, himself, approved of God, is evident !

It is easily seen by the words written who believes & follows God and who it is that follows men!

I think so. But human certainty is not the same as spiritual discernment. Human certainly functions like a monkey chasing after its own tail in a treadmill of the mind.

 

[Lizbeth]

Yes...the sins that are past...as the bible teaches. Whoever sins willfully after that is NOT covered by that...according to that very same bible. What is willful sin? The same sin as the Israelites in the wilderness....testing God through stubbornness and unbelief. Hey, just look at those who oppose my posts... coincidence?

For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins, [27] But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Yes, willful sins are not quite the same as inadvertent sins, however any sin we are aware of that we have committed needs to be repented of. Once repented of it is forgiven and brought under the blood same as the sins we sinned prior to knowing the Lord. To my understanding, I believe the tense in that verse is "if we KEEP ON willfully sinning after we have received knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins." I don't believe it means if a believer commits one willful sin they are necessarily rejected for that. But someone who keeps on willfully sinning after coming to knowledge of the truth becomes reprobate and rejected. That is not the same as inadvertent sins or sins one commits from lack of knowledge and instruction. I believe the Lord gives people time to learn and be instructed after coming to faith.

 

[amigo de christo]

Nope in Acts it happens at salvation.

And confirmed here

1 Corinthians 12:13 states: "For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body; whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free; and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

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Go back and read again what epi said . I dont see any mention of having to COME TO CHRIST JESUS to BELIEVE ON HIM .
that is MY POINT . inclusvism has sold a lie that simply cannot and will not save but rather will damn all
who joined as one under that lie . the lie which said that all religoins do serve GOD so long as they love one another
and do good works . JESUS would not have SUPPORTED such a thing .
THE LOVE OF GOD would not support such a thing .
JESUS said if YE LOVED GOD ye would have LOVED ME , NOT DENIED ME and followed some other religoin and just do good works .
The REMOVAL of the one true gospel has been speeding up fast and it has been replaced with
a socially engineered one . ONE that all religoins can UNITE UNDER , one that even the secular of no religion can unite under
BUT ITS ALL A LIE . They have found a means by which all religoins and athiest can unite as one under
finding common ground as one under . THEY CALL IT LOVE
but it aint FROM GOD and it aint LOVE . LOVE rejoices IN THE TRUTH . JESUS IS THE TRUTH
and HE said very clearly , more than once
about the dire need to have believed on HIM . JESUS message never will agree with the socially engineered one .
AND ITS TRUE ,that preaching the social gospel is gonna unite as one a far larger number , FOR WOE the world
and religoins are unting as one under it . ITS JUST AS TRUE IT AINT GONNA SAVE A ONE OF THEM .
I KNOW WHO SAVES so HE ALONE is who i shall point too . JESUS CHRIST .

 

[amigo de christo]

Sister lamb has been spotted . MARCH ON SISTER . POINT to JESUS CHRIST to the last breath .

 

[amigo de christo]

Epi is NOT in America but in Canada. Let's not be knocking regions where ppl live over ppl's belief system.

The word is simple, plain and readily available to any to read and search out the scrips.
What one promotes, endorses or believes shows whether church indoctrination or lack of a personal relationship to God by the study of his word to show the worker, himself, approved of God, is evident !

It is easily seen by the words written who believes & follows God and who it is that follows men!

March on in the LORD dear sister . TO CHRIST ALONE , HIS DOCTRINE , to the pure and holy words of TRUTH in scriptures
shall we point . Hit the trenches . This last hour is gonna move fast and much tribulation shall come against the true saints .
BUT I GOT a wonderful reminder . JESUS IS WITH US THROUGH IT ALL and our END IS SUPER GOOD with THE KING .