Forsaken

[bbyrd009]

Sorry, but that's not correct. If taken literally, Christ posed the question 'why', as if he didn't understand. In other words, he would've expressed his emotions differently had he anticipated an abandonment from God.
The exclamation was for the audience, and to bring their attention to the entire pericope of Psalm 22.
Christ was never, ever abandoned by God, you don't seem to appreciate the meaning of the word. If Christ was destined to be King of King and Lord of Lords, then again, he was never abandoned, for he knew that God had to always be with him in order to fulfill the promise. You have to express this differently, if you're trying to reconcile the two principles. Which you will not be able to.

But, you are clearly one who subscribes to Penal Substitution Theory, and thus, this is why you're not interpreting the phenomenon that took place on the cross, correctly. Christ died to end the Law, he was the final sacrifice. He dissolved the Covenant that was bound by blood with the Israelites, with blood. His blood was able to do this because he completed the Law, by observing it perfectly. Therefore, no man is under the condemnation of the Law, but we are to be accountable to the Law of Faith.

You will never reconcile what truly occurred on the cross, with the Penal Substitution Theory. For Christ's pre-eminence, and his alleged abandonment while on the cross, are antithetical to each other.

i have suspected that Jesus was playing a Role @ "Eli, Eli..." for a while now, basically the role that He was asked to play, and your explanation is the clearest i have come across yet. Still isnt like crystal clear maybe, but might serve as a bridge for someone, hopefully. So i'll pose a Q, that you might refine your explanation a bit more...as soon as i get how to phrase it lol, gotta run for now

 

[DNB]

I believe Jesus understood his relationship to God better than we do. If he said he was abandoned we much accept the fact that he was abandoned. If that conflicts with some of your other beliefs you should examine those beliefs to see where you are in error.

You're missing Christ's allusion. Again, the pericope that he cited resulted in him not being abandoned.
You're being too rigid and shallow in your interpretation.

 

[bbyrd009]

He cried: "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?" (Matthew 27.46)

yes, but Yah did not need a Sacrifice to make us acceptable to Him as our Death Cults teach, so that may have been a statement reflecting a rejection of that concept? No son of man may die for another's sins was not like magically revoked or anything, farouk. As hard as it may be to contemplate, Yah is Love, right, and imo the sum total of Yah's displeasure at a sinner is expressed in Who told you that you were naked?

 

[theophilus]

well, i wouldn't argue that He refused the Call or anything, dont get me wrong, but imo characterizing it as "His choice" in the light of Caiaphas proclamation viz better that one die for all and Jesus' request to Yah that the cup pass from Him if possible seems to argue against your point?

I could even go so far as to say that Jesus did not die for our sins, and i could Quote as much, while you cannot Quote that He did,
near as i can tell anyway, Bible Search: Jesus died for our sins what do you make of that?

Look at what Jesus requested.

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”
Matthew 26:39 ESV

He only asked that the cup pass from him if it were possible to accomplish his task without dying.

First Corinthians 15:3 says, " For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures."

 

[bbyrd009]

I believe Jesus understood his relationship to God better than we do. If he said he was abandoned we much accept the fact that he was abandoned. If that conflicts with some of your other beliefs you should examine those beliefs to see where you are in error.

he said, with overwhelming certainty?

 

[bbyrd009]

And going a little farther he fell on his face and prayed, saying, “My Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as you will.”

so right there it becomes obvious that Jesus was NOT WILLING eh

He only asked that the cup pass from him if it were possible to accomplish his task without dying.

exactly

First Corinthians 15:3 says, " For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures."

yes, Christ died for our sins, not Jesus; different concept, spiritual rather than literal imo. Christ died for my sins when i, personally, killed "Him"

 

[theophilus]

yes, but Yah did not need a Sacrifice to make us acceptable to Him as our Death Cults teach, so that may have been a statement reflecting a rejection of that concept? No son of man may die for another's sins was not like magically revoked or anything, farouk. As hard as it may be to contemplate, Yah is Love, right, and imo the sum total of Yah's displeasure at a sinner is expressed in Who told you that you were naked?

Don't forget that God made clothes for Adam and Eve from the skins of animals. To do that he needed to kill the animals and shed their blood. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin. Before Jesus came God commanded animal sacrifices for sin. These sacrifices only covered sins temporarily; it required the sacrifice of a perfect human to remove them completely.

God is love but he is also holiness and justice. When Isaiah had his vision of God on his throne the seraphim were saying, "Holy, holy, holy", not "Love, love, love." God's holiness requires that all sin be paid for; his love provided a substitute to bear our sins so we could receive eternal life.

 

[DNB]

Don't forget that God made clothes for Adam and Eve from the skins of animals. To do that he needed to kill the animals and shed their blood. The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin. Before Jesus came God commanded animal sacrifices for sin. These sacrifices only covered sins temporarily; it required the sacrifice of a perfect human to remove them completely.

God is love but he is also holiness and justice. When Isaiah had his vision of God on his throne the seraphim were saying, "Holy, holy, holy", not "Love, love, love." God's holiness requires that all sin be paid for; his love provided a substitute to bear our sins so we could receive eternal life.

Where there is no law, there is no sin. This is what Jesus accomplished on the cross, he ended the Law and the guilt and condemnation that comes with it.
The penalty of sin is eternal estrangement from God, Jesus clearly did not suffer this on the cross, either figuratively or practically, for it's impossible to do so.
The Mosaic Covenant was established with blood, therefore only blood, or death rather, could rescind or abrogate it, just like any other human covenant, like a will or marriage.
Again, you will never be able to establish that whatever Christ experienced on the cross, to be commensurate with that of eternal damnation, no matter in what mystical and esoteric manner that you try to convey it.

 

[DPMartin]

"God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself." 2 Cor. 5:19

There was no separation or division of God on the cross, just a united purpose of saving mankind. Jesus didn't experience "the same separation" that our sins do. The wages of sin is death... eternal separation from God. God is not divided on the Cross, nor did Jesus "experience" eternal separation from the rest of the Trinity.

correct amen an all that

you know when many who argue that Jesus separated from God they go to:


Mat_27:46　 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

without any supporting text, I do believe this is what Abel said when his blood cried out to God from the ground. Abel is the first man to experience death and his offering was accepted and it was by the hand of his elder brother who had earthy authority over him. which to me seems a prophesy and Jesus being the acceptable offering is the first to be resurrected from the dead who was brought to crucifixion by the hand of His brethren who had been given earthy authority over Him.

and to me, the Lord God never forgot that, He's the one who mentions it to Cain therefore making sure we read it and are aware of it, bearing witness of Abel's life.

 

[bbyrd009]

Don't forget that God made clothes for Adam and Eve from the skins of animals. To do that he needed to kill the animals and shed their blood

well, we say that, yes, but we cannot Quote that? Yah made them a coat of skins, goes the Scripture right? So i suggest that it is written so as to suggest our initial reading, while containing another hidden message, which @aspen has suggested might be the ego, and i have since found other sources that agree

The Bible says that without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness for sin.

the Bible says that under the law all that is true, yes. Note how that part virtually always gets left out though?

Before Jesus came God commanded animal sacrifices for sin. These sacrifices only covered sins temporarily; it required the sacrifice of a perfect human to remove them completely.

bc that is where our heads are at, bc that is what we needed, being the bloodthirsty little shits that we are, i am fairly convinced. We read that animal sacrifices were ordained by Yah for the Israelites, but of course animal sacrifices were nothing new, or unique to Israelites. Plus that was in the dispensation of Law, after all

God is love but he is also holiness and justice. When Isaiah had his vision of God on his throne the seraphim were saying, "Holy, holy, holy", not "Love, love, love." God's holiness requires that all sin be paid for; his love provided a substitute to bear our sins so we could receive eternal life.

well, Who told you that you were naked? implies something else to me, at least now, and make Yah the liar, or Scripture the liar, @ I desire mercy, not sacrifice? But if you can Quote anywhere, any version even of "Yah's holiness requires that all sin be paid for" we can examine it and see maybe. But fwiw i would contemplate that human sacrifice was common then, even among the Israelites, and so Yah maybe worked something similar to the other examples, an eye for an eye turns out to not be advocating revenge, but was surely a way to limit revenge, and the vv on slavery, and etc. And doesnt "eternal life" begin after we are " buried with Him in death, and raised to eternal life" @ baptism anyway? :) when did "eternal" turn into "forever?"

 

[Joseph77]

Before Yahweh gave Torah, sin brought death. Sin was before Torah, before The Law was given.

 

[Jay Ross]

Before Yahweh gave Torah, sin brought death. Sin was before Torah, before The Law was given.

But even before the Torah, God had set in place a means of redemption and salvation for those that had sinned. Perhaps it may be better for you to tell us what type of death that sin brought before the Torah and whether or not there was any difference after the Torah was given.

Shalom

 

[brian100]

I have lived my life as best as Jesus taught so.. and if people said something to me about money? I would say God knows I need money to survive.. and Jesus said to 'ask the Father!".. and I do! It works. Your Father wants to help you.. just ask him! He knows your needs!! Even without the asking.

And if people say you will not have a wife in heaven I tell them God knows I need my wife. Points fingers at people who say marriage is over...after u die.

See I'm going to tell you how to be a real Christian!

Oh I thought you were talking about you being forsaken..

Everyone talks about being saved but has no clue on how to live like Jesus wanted.

It was his human nature who cried out why have you forsaken me. Nobody knows what we will say in a position like that... I'd say please help me Jesus! but before that I will say Jesus will help me way before that happens: The shall never die thing he spoke about.