Free will, the root of misunderstanding

[CarlosB]

Hello friends

I am a Christian and pastor of the church elected in Portugal.

Also I already went defender of doctrine of free arbitrio and member and pastor of an evangelical church, until the day that that I was visited by Espirito of God in which me revealed that such a doctrine not passes from an illusion that has enslaved million people and has prevented of knowing things of God.

And from that day made ​​me know the grace of God, God's offer in Christ Jesus, and that's what I come here to testify.

And speaking very little English, I have to write pe translator, but let's start:

The scripture says:

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, because they are foolishness to him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Corinthians 2:14

If the natural man is unable to believe in God, as they say he is free to choose God? As someone chooses not comprende and think crazy?

Peace

 

[Rocky Wiley]

Welcome Carlos,

You are so right. That is the way God draws those that are hungry to him.

 

[CarlosB]

Thanks Rocky

It is always a pleasure to talk about the things of God, I hope we can discuss calmly.

Peace!

 

[ScottAU]

The natural man is the carnal man, ie. the man who lives according to the base passions of the flesh. A man in such a state can never know God because the things of God are spiritually discerned.

Yet such being the case does not preclude the free ability of man to CHOOSE to diligently seek God in order to find change of mind unto salvation.

The very existence of vice and virtue necessitate the ability to CHOOSE.

The condemnation is not that men are in darkness. The condemnation is the rejection of light, a rejection that involves the free agency of man.

 

[Dodo_David]

In John 6:44, Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them . . ."
In John 6:65, Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

So, in order for a person to turn to Jesus, God the Father must choose to draw that person to Jesus.

The idea that God has given every person unlimited free will is an idea that pleases the flesh, but it is an idea that is not supported by Scripture.

That God has the authority and ability to manipulate a person's will is seen in Exodus 4:21, which says the following:

The Lord said to Moses, “When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the wonders I have given you the power to do. But I will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go.”

The LORD said that He would deliberately harden Pharaoh's heart. In doing so, God was manipulating Pharaoh's will in order to serve God's divine purpose.

Indeed, in Romans 9:14-18, the Apostle Paul says this:

[SIZE=.75em]14 [/SIZE]What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! [SIZE=.75em]15 [/SIZE]For he says to Moses,

“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

[SIZE=.75em]16 [/SIZE]It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. [SIZE=.75em]17 [/SIZE]For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” [SIZE=.75em]18 [/SIZE]Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

 

[ScottAU]

In John 6:44, Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them . . ."
In John 6:65, Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

So, in order for a person to turn to Jesus, God the Father must choose to draw that person to Jesus.

The idea that God has given every person unlimited free will is an idea that pleases the flesh, but it is an idea that is not supported by Scripture.

That God has the authority and ability to manipulate a person's will is seen in Exodus 4:21, which says the following:


The LORD said that He would deliberately harden Pharaoh's heart. In doing so, God was manipulating Pharaoh's will in order to serve God's divine purpose.

Indeed, in Romans 9:14-18, the Apostle Paul says this:

I find it very interesting that Reformed Theologians (whose theology is premised on the Augustinian view of Predestination, ie. fatalism) will often use the example of how God hardened Pharaoh's heart yet OMIT the fact that the Hebrew uses different words in differing contexts for the word harden.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.

Harden - H2388 - châzaq
A primitive root; to fasten upon; hence to seize, be strong (figuratively courageous, causatively strengthen, cure, help, repair, fortify), obstinate; to bind, restrain, conquer: - aid, amend, X calker, catch, cleave, confirm, be constant, constrain, continue, be of good (take) courage (-ous, -ly), encourage (self), be established, fasten, force, fortify, make hard, harden, help, (lay) hold (fast), lean, maintain, play the man, mend, become (wax) mighty, prevail, be recovered, repair, retain, seize, be (wax) sore, strengten (self), be stout, be (make, shew, wax) strong (-er), be sure, take (hold), be urgent, behave self valiantly, withstand.

Exo 7:3 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.

Harden - H7185 - kaw-shaw'
A primitive root; properly to be dense, that is, tough or severe (in various applications): - be cruel, be fiercer, make grievous, be ([ask a], be in, have, seem, would) hard (-en, [labour], -ly, thing), be sore, (be, make) stiff (-en, [-necked]).

Exo 7:14 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart is hardened, he refuseth to let the people go.

Hardened - H3515 - kâbêd
From H3513; heavy; figuratively in a good sense (numerous) or in a bad sense (severe, difficult, stupid): - (so) great, grievous, hard (-ened), (too) heavy (-ier), laden, much, slow, sore, thick.

Exo 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.

Exo 9:34 And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants.

Hardened - H3513 - kâbad kâbêd
A primitive root; to be heavy, that is, in a bad sense (burdensome, severe, dull) or in a good sense (numerous, rich, honorable); causatively to make weighty (in the same two senses): - abounding with, more grievously afflict, boast, be chargeable, X be dim, glorify, be (make) glorious (things), glory, (very) great, be grievous, harden, be (make) heavy, be heavier, lay heavily, (bring to, come to, do, get, be had in) honour (self), (be) honourable (man), lade, X more be laid, make self many, nobles, prevail, promote (to honour), be rich, be (go) sore, stop.


So whilst it is indeed true that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart it was clearly within the context of strengthening Pharaoh in his rebellion and not within the context of denying Pharaoh a choice in the matter.

False teachings get their strength via isolating snippets of Scripture out of context in order to substantiate a fiction and such fictions are often quite easily dispelled by diligently examining what the Scripture actually teaches.

Many people treat the Bible as a "book of proof texts" when the truth is that the Bible is instead presenting a picture for us as a "harmonious whole" to which we can align our minds and thus allow ourselves to be genuinely led to the Spirit which lies behind the Bible.

The Bible won't save anyone and neither will the doctrines people attempt to pull from its pages. Salvation is wrought via abiding in the implanted Word whereby we come into union with the Living God. The Bible is but a pointer to this abiding relationship.

God is calling all people to receive with meekness His truth implanted in our hearts having laid aside our previous self-willed resistance. It is only the truth which can set us free, not faulty mental conceptions that are perceived as truth.

Mat 6:20 But lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal:
Mat 6:21 For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also.
Mat 6:22 The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.
Mat 6:23 But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!






Note: Romans Chapter 9 is presented within the context of God chose to use the Nation of Israel to reveal the Messiah to the world. It is not presented within the context of INDIVIDUAL salvation. God is not willing for ANY to perish but all to come to repentance, a repentance worked by godly sorrow unto salvation for the grace of God has appeared to all men teaching them how they ought to go. Fatalism is an utter denial of man's responsibility in CHOOSING to do right.

Rom 9:3 For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh:
Rom 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
Rom 9:5 Whose are the fathers, and of whom as concerning the flesh Christ came, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.
Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Dodo_David]

Although the Hebrew word hāzaq can be translated as strengthen, the word has other meanings.

Regarding the use of hāzaq in Exodus 4:21, the late Old Testament scholar H.L. Ellison writes, "It seems clear that the very common fault of obstinacy, deliberate and unjustifiable obstinacy, is intended." [H.L. Ellison, Exodus, The Daily Study Bible Series (Westminster Press: 1982), p. 203.]

The Zondervan NIV Exhaustive Concordance (Second Edition) contains a Hebrew-to-English dictionary which gives several meanings for the Hebrew word hāzaq. According to that dictionary, hāzaq has a negative meaning when it refers to the hardness of the heart.

The Jewish Publication Society's English translation of the Tanakh translates Exodus 4:21 this way:

And the LORD said to Moses, "When you return to Egypt, see that you perform before Pharaoh all the marvels that I have put within your power. I, however, will stiffen his heart so that he will not let the people go."

Being stiffened isn't always a good thing. Indeed, in Exodus 32:9-10, God tells Moses what He thinks of the Israelites:

“I have seen these people,” the Lord said to Moses, “and they are a stiff-necked people. Now leave me alone so that my anger may burn against them and that I may destroy them. Then I will make you into a great nation.”

That the word harden is used in a negative way is seen in the Apostle Paul's statement in Romans 9:18 :

Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

In his statement, Paul is contrasting God's hardening of people (a negative) with God's having mercy on people (a positive).

That God manipulates a person's heart to fit God's will is seen in Ezra 1:1 :

In the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, in order to fulfill the word of the Lord spoken by Jeremiah, the Lord moved the heart of Cyrus king of Persia to make a proclamation throughout his realm and also to put it in writing.

That God is the one who changes a person's heart is what Jesus talked about when He said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them." (John 6:65)

The only one who has unlimited free will is God, and He has the authority and the ability to use His unlimited free will to place limits on the will of humans in order to carry out His divine purpose.

 

[veteran]

So ONLY those whom God chooses can be saved???


1 Cor 15:23-26
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at His coming.
24 Then cometh the end, when He shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when He shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.
25 For He must reign, till He hath put all enemies under His feet.
26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.
(KJV)

Apostle Paul revealed more there than most think.

Christ must reign over His enemies before God's Eternity will begin. That end is after His future "thousand years" reign of Rev.20. And that is when God's final Judgment will be, at the end of the thousand years.

That period of "thousand years" in Rev.20 will be a time of preaching and teaching like none before, because Satan will not be allowed out of the pit to deceive anyone in that time. Per Ezek.44, Christ's future priests called the Zadok (the Just) will teach the difference between the holy and the profane, and the nations will learn doctrine and their error as written in Isaiah.

So God predestinated some before the foundation of this world, others in this world when they heard The Gospel and believed, and there will be some during Christ's future Milennium reign that will believe at that time, each man in his own order, like Paul pointed to.

This is why Satan will be loosed one final time at the end of Christ's future "thousand years" reign, in order to try those who believe in that future time.

For those born in this present world (back to the time of Adam), except for those predestinated, this is our time to believe and be tested by the devil and his. For today specifically, Satan's testing for most of us is coming in the near future tribulation just prior to our Lord Jesus' return. Each man in his own order.

 

[Dodo_David]

So ONLY those whom God chooses can be saved???

I am only reporting what the Lord Jesus and and the Apostle Paul said.

In John 6:44, the LORD Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

In John 6:65, the LORD Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

In Romans 9:14-16, the Apostle Paul writes the following:

What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy.

Nothing prevents us from asking God the Father to draw certain people to Jesus, but we need to keep in mind that God the Father has the authority to not draw a person to Jesus if God the Father chooses not to.

For me, this issue is all about God's omnipotence and sovereignty. God has the ability and the authority to do anything He wants whenever He wants, because He wouldn't be God if He didn't.

 

[veteran]

I am only reporting what the Lord Jesus and and the Apostle Paul said.

In John 6:44, the LORD Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

In John 6:65, the LORD Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

In Romans 9:14-16, the Apostle Paul writes the following:





Nothing prevents us from asking God the Father to draw certain people to Jesus, but we need to keep in mind that God the Father has the authority to not draw a person to Jesus if God the Father chooses not to.

For me, this issue is all about God's omnipotence and sovereignty. God has the ability and the authority to do anything He wants whenever He wants, because He wouldn't be God if He didn't.

All you're trying to do is a narrow focus with blinders on while rejecting the rest... of what God's Word teaches.

In John 17 our Lord Jesus revealed two groups, one being His elect predestinated chosen 'sent' ones to take The Gospel to the nations after His resurrection, and then the group of believers that would believe on Jesus through 'their' preaching. Our Lord's desire there was that both... groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This is why Christ's Apostles kept admonishing the believers that 'heard' through them to stay focused on Christ Jesus to the very end, and don't fall away.

In other words, those of the second group which are not... chosen 'sent' ones like Christ's elect Apostles, CAN fall away using their own free will.

But those chosen elect, like the ones of Matt.24:24 that Christ chose and sent... into this world, CANNOT EVER fall away from Him, and they will die the death to keep The Faith on Christ Jesus.

Not so with all believers today. Some will fall away. And that was Paul's warning to the Church in 2 Thess.2, and Christ's warning in Matt.24:23-26, and in Rev.16:15 all the way to the 6th Vial.

Thusly, some were 'sealed' before they were born, others will be 'sealed' when they overcome the wicked one within this world time. And then others will become sealed when they overcome the wicked one AFTER... Christ's future thousand years reign, for that's why Satan will be loosed a final time then.

 

[Angelina]

In John 17 our Lord Jesus revealed two groups, one being His elect predestinated chosen 'sent' ones to take The Gospel to the nations after His resurrection, and then the group of believers that would believe on Jesus through 'their' preaching. Our Lord's desire there was that both... groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This is why Christ's Apostles kept admonishing the believers that 'heard' through them to stay focused on Christ Jesus to the very end, and don't fall away.

In other words, those of the second group which are not... chosen 'sent' ones like Christ's elect Apostles, CAN fall away using their own free will.

But those chosen elect, like the ones of Matt.24:24 that Christ chose and sent... into this world, CANNOT EVER fall away from Him, and they will die the death to keep The Faith on Christ Jesus.

Not so with all believers today. Some will fall away.

Amen Vet, I agree with your synopsis...but not necessarily your "Two house theology" in general

 

[JB_Reformed Baptist]

I am only reporting what the Lord Jesus and and the Apostle Paul said.

In John 6:44, the LORD Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

In John 6:65, the LORD Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

In Romans 9:14-16, the Apostle Paul writes the following:





Nothing prevents us from asking God the Father to draw certain people to Jesus, but we need to keep in mind that God the Father has the authority to not draw a person to Jesus if God the Father chooses not to.

For me, this issue is all about God's omnipotence and sovereignty. God has the ability and the authority to do anything He wants whenever He wants, because He wouldn't be God if He didn't.

I completely agree.

 

[veteran]

EVERYONE... must make their 'own'... choice to believe on Christ Jesus as God's Promised Saviour. The real question is 'when' do different peoples have their opportunity to choose.

Further, if God only did the choosing, then NONE called could ever fall away from Christ, and we know Christ and His Apostles preached a lot to the brethren to not fall away.

And also, if God only did the choosing without the person making their choice, and if they should fall away, they could not be held accountable at the Judgment without their own choice involved.

 

[Dodo_David]

All you're trying to do is a narrow focus with blinders on while rejecting the rest... of what God's Word teaches.

In John 17 our Lord Jesus revealed two groups, one being His elect predestinated chosen 'sent' ones to take The Gospel to the nations after His resurrection, and then the group of believers that would believe on Jesus through 'their' preaching. Our Lord's desire there was that both... groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This is why Christ's Apostles kept admonishing the believers that 'heard' through them to stay focused on Christ Jesus to the very end, and don't fall away.

In other words, those of the second group which are not... chosen 'sent' ones like Christ's elect Apostles, CAN fall away using their own free will.

But those chosen elect, like the ones of Matt.24:24 that Christ chose and sent... into this world, CANNOT EVER fall away from Him, and they will die the death to keep The Faith on Christ Jesus.

Not so with all believers today. Some will fall away. And that was Paul's warning to the Church in 2 Thess.2, and Christ's warning in Matt.24:23-26, and in Rev.16:15 all the way to the 6th Vial.

Thusly, some were 'sealed' before they were born, others will be 'sealed' when they overcome the wicked one within this world time. And then others will become sealed when they overcome the wicked one AFTER... Christ's future thousand years reign, for that's why Satan will be loosed a final time then.

In John 6:65, Jesus explains to his disciples why some people turned away from Him after He preached to them. They turned away from Jesus because God the Father had not enabled them to accept Jesus..

That God the Father is the one who enables a person to accept Jesus is what the Apostle Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:6-7:

I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.

 

[Rex]

This is why Christ's Apostles kept admonishing the believers that 'heard' through them to stay focused on Christ Jesus to the very end, and don't fall away.



But those chosen elect, like the ones of Matt.24:24 that Christ chose and sent... into this world, CANNOT EVER fall away from Him, and they will die the death to keep The Faith on Christ Jesus.

Not so with all believers today. Some will fall away.

Amen Vet, I agree with your synopsis...but not necessarily your "Two house theology" in general

Interesting I believe I can show you the evidence, but I do believe that it is possible for anyone to become a bond servant to the Lord.


Matthew 25:31-40
Thread I started on the subject
http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/16944-matthew-2531-40-let-me-hear-from-u/

There are three groups of people the sheep, the goats and the brethren

The Apostles referred to themselves as bond servants, ears pierced on the Lord door post. Deuteronomy 15:12-17
The bond servant is used as a example of those that enter the brethren as a brother Deuteronomy 15:16-17
and those that go out into the world Deuteronomy 15:13-14
Hebrews 5:11- 6:3

The verse above is not directed at you it is an example of those on milk as compared to the mature "bond servant" no longer a sheep but a brother.

I wouldn't think 1 Cor 2:15 is speaking to those on milk.

 

[Angelina]

My quote button is not working very well sorry Rex. This whole quote came from vet

In John 17 our Lord Jesus revealed two groups, one being His elect predestinated chosen 'sent' ones to take The Gospel to the nations after His resurrection, and then the group of believers that would believe on Jesus through 'their' preaching. Our Lord's desire there was that both... groups would become 'one' in Him and The Father.

This is why Christ's Apostles kept admonishing the believers that 'heard' through them to stay focused on Christ Jesus to the very end, and don't fall away.

In other words, those of the second group which are not... chosen 'sent' ones like Christ's elect Apostles, CAN fall away using their own free will.

But those chosen elect, like the ones of Matt.24:24 that Christ chose and sent... into this world, CANNOT EVER fall away from Him, and they will die the death to keep The Faith on Christ Jesus.

Not so with all believers today. Some will fall away.

I agree with what he is saying here...I will add more as I go along but have workers in my house at the mo...fixing/ replacing a HW cylinder

 

[veteran]

In John 6:65, Jesus explains to his disciples why some people turned away from Him after He preached to them. They turned away from Jesus because God the Father had not enabled them to accept Jesus..

That God the Father is the one who enables a person to accept Jesus is what the Apostle Paul is talking about in 1 Corinthians 3:6-7:

You cannot just leave out the John 6:45 verse where Christ Jesus shows what He was talking about...
John 6:44-45
44 No man can come to Me, except the Father Which hath sent Me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, "And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto Me."
(KJV)


Where was that written back in the OT that He was quoting from? Here for one...


Micah 4:2-3
2 And many nations shall come, and say, "Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, and to the house of the God of Jacob; and He will teach us of His ways, and we will walk in His paths: for the law shall go forth of Zion, and the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.
3 And He shall judge among many people, and rebuke strong nations afar off; and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up a sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.
(KJV)


Each man in his own... order, like Apostle Paul said in 1 Cor.15, for where our Lord Jesus quoted from in John 6:45 is His future Milennium reign on earth, and the nations being TAUGHT of Him and His Way. That's beating of swords (weapons) into plowshares with not learning war anymore marks that future time.

So ALL... peoples will be taught The Gospel before God's Great White Throne Judgment and "lake of fire" destruction. Everyone... will be given a choice (except Satan and his angels which have already been sentenced to perish).

 

[williemac]

I am only reporting what the Lord Jesus and and the Apostle Paul said.

In John 6:44, the LORD Jesus says, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day."

In John 6:65, the LORD Jesus says, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them."

In Romans 9:14-16, the Apostle Paul writes the following:





Nothing prevents us from asking God the Father to draw certain people to Jesus, but we need to keep in mind that God the Father has the authority to not draw a person to Jesus if God the Father chooses not to.

For me, this issue is all about God's omnipotence and sovereignty. God has the ability and the authority to do anything He wants whenever He wants, because He wouldn't be God if He didn't.

The problem that I have with this is that in reading passages in the bible, it is entirely possible to come to incorrect conclusions. The way we prevent this is to filter the passages through other passages that relate to the same subject.

Before I give an example, I will comment on the sovereignty of God. I find it interesting that those who use this term do not acknowledge that it is not used in scripture concerning God. Therefore people commonly use such words to make them mean what they have already concluded. Typically, this is about control. What they are really saying is that God is in total control of the minds and hearts of His creation, as above stated from the quote (He can do whatever He wants).

What we need to also say is that God can do whatever He wants within the confines of who He is and what His nature is. He is not a bully. He is not uncaring. He is not unfair. He is not partial. He is not a control freak. His decisions and actions will never demonstrate any of these traits.

As usual in this subject, one will counter the conclusions of some by reminding them that God makes His predestination based on foreknowledge. But those partial to a control freak God will reply with a definition of this term that is compatible with control.

I will reply to this with a correction. God is not in control...He is in CHARGE! Those who care to put any thought into this reply will understand the difference between the two. God has ultimate authority.

But I will now give the example that I alluded to earlier: The bible states that God gives grace to the humble and resists the proud (James 4:6). This is a confirmation of the passage from Jesus' own words in Luke 18:10-14, where He states that those who exalt themselves will be humbled and those who humble themselves will be exalted. This would apply to the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. The man exalted himself in his own eyes. This is the equivalent to the original transgression that Lucifer was guilty of when he determined to sit on the throne as God, forsaking his created purpose. Therefore God has the authority to override the offending agenda, and humble the perpetrator.

Whatever we say about free will, whatever definition we agree on for it (not happening yet), one thing we can see in scripture is that man can exalt himself or choose humility.

When we connect the subject of His predestination through foreknowledge, with the knowledge of His act of giving grace to the humble, we can hopefully avoid coming to incorrect conclusions about how God operates. He is not a control freak. In His desire for relationship with His creation, He does not impose His will upon an unwilling party. We send people to jail for this, and then we put this trait onto our Creator? hmmmmm

 

[Sargento]

Hello you all...

Well, I must say I agree with Carlos... there is no free-will at all.

Not once the Bibles says that it exists, but many times it show precisely the opposite... I mean, there shouldn't be not doubt about this.
The reason why some are saved is because there's no free-will... for the regeneration it self is a free-will violation because it changes our will from evil to good.

 

[williemac]

Hello you all...

Well, I must say I agree with Carlos... there is no free-will at all.

Not once the Bibles says that it exists, but many times it show precisely the opposite... I mean, there shouldn't be not doubt about this.
The reason why some are saved is because there's no free-will... for the regeneration it self is a free-will violation because it changes our will from evil to good.

This is a gross assumption. Maybe someone should inform God that man has no free will. Mankind is exhorted, even commanded by God, to humble himself. To say that we do not have free will is to make us robots awaiting to be programmed.

On the other hand, the power of God to salvation is in His gospel, which is the good news message that He died for our sin. The mandate for response includes our recognition and acknowledgment that we are sinners. And if we want to have eternal life we need to confess our sin to God and accept the free gift of life and righteousness.

I said earlier that we are missing a universal agreement as to the definition of free will. Without this agreement the argument can be and is endless, as people are using their own understanding of the term to make their case. I would rather simply observe God's dealings with man to see what kind of conclusion is appropriate on this matter.

The conclusion that we can make through observation is that man has the ability to think, reason, and respond. Without this, we could not even have relationship with other people. And since we can, we must conclude that we have the ability to enjoy fellowship and respond to others. To me, that is a no brainer. (pun intended).

Even Jesus admitted that sinners have the ability to love one another. So how does this agree with your conclusion that we have a will only to be evil? What we have is the inability to be righteous. This is more about ability than will. There is a difference. For example, I am now 59 years old and do not have the body I had when I was young and involved in high school athletics. So, no matter how much I want to excel in certain activities like I used to, I find I cannot. I have the will but not the ability.

Ask any sinner if he wishes he was perfect. Most will admit they are not but would like to be if they could..Hey, I know more than a few unbelievers who will admit that if there is a heaven, they do not deserve to go there. ......Enter the gospel.