Free Will

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PinSeeker

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Much of what you think comes from the reformers who did not even know the Lord, who did not teach the Doctrine of Christ.
I'm assuming you are Protestant and not Catholic, so much of what you think, too, "comes from the Reformers." <smile> What happened in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries, Dan is called the Protestant Reformation, and it was begun in October, 1517 by Martin Luther, when he nailed his "95 Theses" to the door of the Castle Church in Wittenburg, Germany. So you are of the reformed condition just as much as I am, but you follow after Jacobus Arminius, a Dutch Reformed minister who objected to five of John Calvin's central teachings... he taught conditional election based on faith, universal atonement, prevenient grace, resistible grace, and the possibility of falling from grace, objecting to five points in John Calvin's much larger body of work. So when you hear people talk about "the five points of Calvinism," there really is no such thing; it is properly called the five objections of Arminius.

So there's your history lesson for the day... <smile> ...but the point as it relates to you, Dan, is that you agree, whether you want to think so or not, with John Calvin (and Martin Luther) far, far, far more than you think or want to think. <smile> And the things you think you disagree on, at least most of them, you really don't. <smile> So, be closed-minded if you want... you be you, certainly... but that's on you, my friend.

Now, I'll be absolutely delighted to address some of your... um... "points"... <smile> One at a time... <smile>

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PinSeeker

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You can start with showing the scriptures the reformers twisted to make it sound as though God put sin in to each new born baby being formed in their mother's womb leading to the false claim that all people are born sinners.... which leads you people to believe you can never ever stop sinning leading to you people proudly proclaiming you are sinners who sin daily in though word and deed as you people cannot cease from sin.
As Paul says in Romans 3:22-23, "...there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God." And then in Romans 5:12, "...sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned..." And in Ephesians 2:1-3, Paul, speaking to Christians, says, "(we) were dead in the trespasses and sins in which (we) once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind." Paul does not put any minimum age or mental capacity or anything we may or may not have done as qualifications for this natural state ~ "we were by nature children of wrath," he says. This is our natural state from birth, really even conception... David says in Psalm 51:5 this was the case for himself, that he "was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." So... this much of what you say here is true: all people are born sinners. However... <smile> ...the rest of what you say here needs... some revision. <smile>

So... no, God did not "put sin into each new born baby" either inside or outside the mother's womb. Such a statement would make God out to be the author of sin, and sinful Himself, which is of course not the case. But man is born, as I said above, with a fallen nature of man, the natural sinful state, which we all have from conception because Adam, who disobeyed God, fell into this state when he sinned (in Genesis 3), and we are born in this state because we are his progeny. Again, yes, all people are born sinners... we are all born dead in our sin... this is our very nature, because Adam sinned and, as Paul says in Romans 5, brought sin into the world, and death through sin, and this state of death in sin spread to all men... all mankind, regardless of age or ability. So, again, we are all born in this state, and regardless of age are, as we say, justly deserving of His... displeasure... and His wrath. But then there is God's grace... His mercy and compassion, which, as Paul says in Romans 9 ~ quoting Moses, who quotes God Himself in Exodus 33 ~ God has mercy on whom He chooses, and hardens whom He hardens.

Now. Adam could have not sinned, and if he did not, then there would be no need for a Savior ~ for Jesus ~ because there would be no such thing as sin... we would all be sinless. And, since we have this natural state, we can't not sin, we cannot abstain perfectly from sin. But... <smile> ...as Paul goes on to say in Romans 6:17-23, "...thanks be to God, that (we) who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which (we) were committed, and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness... just as (we) once presented (our) members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, (we) now present (our) members as slaves to righteousness leading to sanctification... (b)ut now that (we) have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit (we) get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life... the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord."
 

PinSeeker

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Then you can explain how you people follow the false doctrine the reformers got from satan claiming any and all things that happen, happen because the Lord not only wanted them to happen but He caused them to happen... leading people to believe God is causing child molesters to rape innocent little children...
See, this is not what the Reformers said or believed at all. What you're not... allowing for (pun intended), Dan... is that God allows some things to happen, which can be the case even if ~ when ~ the Lord doesn't necessarily "want" them to happen and doesn't cause them to happen. If He did, then, again, that would be to say God Himself is sinful, which is not the case. But in allowing sin and bad things to happen, maybe ~ and this is the case ~ God has a much higher purpose in mind in allowing those things to happen that we can comprehend. As I said before, quoting Paul from Romans 8:28, God "works all things together..." ~ all things, even terrible sinful things... and this is not saying He wants those terrible things or sinful things to happen ~ "...for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose." Just to you child molesters example, can there not be some good thing God does through, or because of, this terrible atrocity? Could He not cause the victim to be pregnant and thus give life to another human being? Or could He not at some later point draw any of the parties involved, victim, child, or perpetrator, to Himself in His grace, thereby causing them to come to Him and repent and believe on Christ and be saved? He... could... <smile>
 

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Wrapping up, because now we're just back to more of the same, more of you just saying... uh... "stuff"... stupid stuff... <chuckles>

as you people mock God according to Gal 6: 7,8

All the reformers have to carnal man made religious traditions from the darkened wisdom of man that they pass off as being the Wisdom of God. They must deny scripture, twist scripture, and serve their father the devil to later themselves up in to believing all this reformed demonic chicanery and tom foolery
Whatever... <smile>

I never said man is Christ. That was that demon buddy you hang out with who lives in side you saying man is Christ. That was that demon buddy you hang out with who lives in side you saying man is Christ. It's what the carnal minded reformers are doing is they have SELF as their lord.
You literally said, Dan, that I was "back in that false doctrine having been deceived by the devil in to believing Romans 7 man is a Christ." But no, we agree that man is not a Christ, and man is not Christ. No Reformer, and none of the Reformed tradition "have SELF as their lord." Goodness gracious.

I was saying that you have been deceived in to believing Romans 7 man is a Christian...
I know, and I was saying ~ correctly ~ that Paul is saying he is that Romans 7 man, no longer living in sin, but still sinning and in need of Jesus, which is the case for all of us, even those of us, like Paul, born again and in Christ.

which is why you quote Romans 7 claiming you cannot control yourself...
This is NOT what I was saying, nor is it what Paul was saying.

which is an ear mark of someone who does not have the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ who has provided His Self Control (one of the Fruit of the Spirit) to those who are actually born again who have submitted themselves to the leading of the Lord which is always based on what God has said in His Word.
So, of course you identify with Romans 7 man as being someone who cannot control himself who has no power over sin, who cannot cease from sin, who may bust out in sin at any moment murdering raping and who knows what all your people are capable of being full of sin and darkness by your own admission as you continually and proudly proclaim you are a sinner!
Yeah see above. Goodness gracious.

No, the Apostle Paul was not stupid to follow and be like Romans 7 man.

He went on to get born again and live over in Romans 8 which is the answer to the quandary Romans 7 man found himself in which is hopelessly being enslaved to the flesh
Romans 8:13,14
For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

None of this is available to Romans 7 man as he's hopelessly being enslaved to the flesh just how you reformers like it!
<chuckles> See above.

Grace and peace to you, Danny. <smile>