Free Will

[Dan Clarkston]

pick a theological fight with a calvinist because they'll school ya for free.

Yeah the calvinists will certainly school people on submitting to doctrines of demons as they twist scripture and ignore most of God's Word. The calvinists are trained to deceive others, but some of us have the Holy Spirit and actually accept the whole counsel of the Lord so we see right thru the doctrines of devils the calvinists are peddling.

But often the deep calls to the deep, and damage control has to be done; the very zeal of a new convert that takes it upon themselves to rush forth often becomes the obstacle to orthodoxy.

And there we have it... "orthodoxy"

That's what the followers of carnal minded man made religious traditions have been taught by their dark spirit guides to claiming their doctrine is "orthodoxy" as they claim their doctrine is "approved by god"

Of course calvinism is approved by the "god of this world" as the Lord calls satan thru the writings of Paul because the devil is the author of calvinism. It's some of his most deceptive work and is right up there with islam and catholicism in terms of being able to deceive so many to get on the highway to hell... in the fast land no less.

We need young men to charge forward against the gates of Hades. But not at the expense of orthodoxy.

The calvinists are useful idiots for the devil used to spread canal minded man made religion and call it "orthodoxy"

Use your God given free will to choose this day whether 1) to believe in the false doctrines of Calvinism that portray God as a disingenuous Dictator who plays games with His pawns by giving most of them the false impression that He cares about them while offering them salvation after which He reveals that He actually hates them and has no desire for them to be saved or 2) to believe the truth taught in the Bible which is that God is love (1 John 4:8) and wants all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2:3-4, 1 Timothy 4:10) and genuinely offers salvation to all people (Matthew 22:1-13, Titus 2:11), as He proved by having His Son die for the sins of all people (1 John 2:1-2, 1 Timothy 2:5-6).

Yep, calvinism is definitely confusing adherents in to believing God and satan is the same guy.

All the attributes of the calvinist "god" are just like the attributes of the devil.

 

[PinSeeker]

Use your God given free will to choose this day....

Why would you tell anybody to choose anything, if they... can't ...think or make decisions?

Yes, those of us who believe God requires people to humble themselves, while admitting that they are hopeless sinners who need His mercy and forgiveness (Luke 18:9-14), are clearly trying to promote the idea that we can earn our own salvation. As everyone knows, when you humbly accept a gift you can then take credit for receiving it and boast about it. Right?

I mean humility is a great thing; you might give it a try. But aside from that, yet another total miss... Cheers, though.

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

Yeah the calvinists will certainly school people on submitting to doctrines of demons as they twist scripture and ignore most of God's Word. The calvinists are trained to deceive others, but some of us have the Holy Spirit and actually accept the whole counsel of the Lord so we see right thru the doctrines of devils the calvinists are peddling.




And there we have it... "orthodoxy"

That's what the followers of carnal minded man made religious traditions have been taught by their dark spirit guides to claiming their doctrine is "orthodoxy" as they claim their doctrine is "approved by god"

Of course calvinism is approved by the "god of this world" as the Lord calls satan thru the writings of Paul because the devil is the author of calvinism. It's some of his most deceptive work and is right up there with islam and catholicism in terms of being able to deceive so many to get on the highway to hell... in the fast land no less.




The calvinists are useful idiots for the devil used to spread canal minded man made religion and call it "orthodoxy"
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Yep, calvinism is definitely confusing adherents in to believing God and satan is the same guy.

All the attributes of the calvinist "god" are just like the attributes of the devil.

<chuckles>

Grace and peace to you, Dan.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Why would you tell anybody to choose anything, if they... can't ...think or make decisions?

Dumb question to ask me. That's what YOU say. People are able to make decisions in their own volition about all kinds of things, including moral decisions, but in your doctrine they somehow can't decide if they are sorry for their sins or not and can't decide who they want to serve in their own volition.

I mean humility is a great thing; you might give it a try.

You don't know what humility is. After being shown the truth I don't know how many times now, you still pridefully refuse to accept it. I fully acknowledge that I'm a lost sinner and can't save myself, but to you that somehow means I'm being prideful and claiming that I saved myself. You have either no ability or no willingness to be reasonable. Maybe you were just predestined to be stubborn and unreasonable? If your doctrine were true, I suppose that would be the explanation. But, the reality is that you make bad decisions using your free will to deny the truth of scripture.

 

[PinSeeker]

Dumb question to ask me.

It was rhetorical, which I guess you missed (again)... The bolding and enlarging of the word 'can't' was intentional and suggestive, which, truth be told I don't know whether you really missed or not, but the point is what I have said, at least in effect, many times: you refuse to accept that 'can't' or 'cannot'... or 'incapable'... in the sense in which Augustine, Calvin, and all who have come after, including me, mean it... You cannot. Pun intended. You see? You... can... but you cannot. For one reason or another, you cannot bring yourself to do it... you are... incapable... of doing it. And that speaks to the larger point in this thread.

That's what YOU say.

No, it's what you say Calvinists like me say, which is ridiculous.

People are able to make decisions in their own volition about all kinds of things, including moral decisions...

Totally agree...

... but in your doctrine they somehow can't decide if they are sorry for their sins or not and can't decide who they want to serve in their own volition.

<eye roll> Another miss...

After being shown the truth...

What is truth, Pontius?

I don't know how many times now, you still pridefully refuse to accept it.

I refuse to accept your... "truth." Yes. I do. <smile>

I fully acknowledge that I'm a lost sinner and can't save myself...

Two things:

1. I'm not talking about humility with respect to God; we certainly agree on that.

2. Right, you can't save yourself, but you can at least contribute to your own salvation, and merit it... which makes God's grace out to be not grace at all. I mean you reject even the idea of that, for sure, and good on you for that, but still, that is the effect of your ~ and all Arminians' ~ position on these things.

... to you that somehow means I'm being prideful...

No, another total miss...

and claiming that I saved myself...

Unintentionally. But it is what it is. See above.

You have either no ability or no willingness to be reasonable.

<eye roll> You just don't like my willingness or reasonable... ness. And that's fair enough.

Maybe you were just predestined to be stubborn and unreasonable?

I mean we're all wired differently, I guess, humanly speaking. You know that. But yeah, as stubborn and unreasonable as you may think I am, I think the every bit the same of you. Spiritual Israelite. One thing I think we both recognize, though, is that of the two of us, only one is saying of the other terribly mean-spirited, disparaging, and... well, we'll just say untoward things, and... it's not me.

If your doctrine were true, I suppose that would be the explanation.

Another miss...

But, the reality is that you make bad decisions using your free will to deny the truth of scripture.

In... your opinion. Yeah, fair enough. Yet another miss, but fair enough. I mean, look at that, I gave you like 37 strikes but...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Why would you tell anybody to choose anything, if they... can't ...think or make decisions?

They believed the devil's lie that they canot make decisions and so according to their faith it is being done unto them.

It's not that sinners cannot choose to get born again and receive what the Lord has done for them to obtain salvation, they just believe the calvinists that keep falsely claiming God wants most people to go to hell and so they see no reason to come to the calvinist "god" that calvinists claim has not provided salvation for them and has rejected them even before they were born.

I couldn't blame them. I was blessed and a teenager because back when I got born again the few folks that witnessed to me before I got saved all told me what the Lord says in His Word which is salvation through Jesus is for WHOSOEVER WILL and so I used my WILL to turn from my sins and receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

Had I had some calvinists witness to me and tell me that their "god" (who they falsely claim is Jesus) does not want me and decided that I could not be born again and get saved then I would have done what most sinners do and think the calvinist "god" is not only a liar but an idiot and refused to have anything to do with calvinist "god"

I thank the Lord that actual Christians witnessed to me leading me to get born again instead of those who speak in behalf of the devil telling me about their calvinist "god"

I see now why calvinists don't go out and witness to people.

If they were being honest about their false doctrine they tell people that their "god" does not want them and decided that they could not be born again and get saved.

Grace and peace to you.

Yeah, I'll pass on calvinist "grace" and "peace"

Thanks, but no thanks.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I mean we're all wired differently, I guess, humanly speaking. You know that. But yeah, as stubborn and unreasonable as you may think I am, I think the every bit the same of you. Spiritual Israelite.

I could not care less what you think of me.

One thing I think we both recognize, though, is that of the two of us, only one is saying of the other terribly mean-spirited, disparaging, and... well, we'll just say untoward things, and... it's not me.

LOL. Yeah, okay. Let's just conveniently forget all the times you've said rude things to me, shall we? One of us thinks he is holier than everyone and is very overly sensitive and easily offended and can't handle disagreement very well on a forum where disagreement and debate is expected. And I'll give you a hint which one of us that is. It's not me.

Another miss...


In... your opinion. Yeah, fair enough. Yet another miss, but fair enough. I mean, look at that, I gave you like 37 strikes but...

It's interesting that you keep saying "another miss" when I haven't missed even once. But, this is you over and over again...

 

[PinSeeker]

They believed the devil's lie that they canot make decisions...

Well first of all, the devil never said such a stupid thing, and second (last) of all Calvin (and Calvinists of course) don't believe such a stupid thing.

...according to their faith it is being done unto them.

Well this is true for all...

...they just believe the calvinists that keep falsely claiming God wants most people to go to hell...

They falsely believe that Calvinists claim that, yes. <smile> I mean, if God actually wanted anyone to go to hell, that would make Him... not God...

...WHOSOEVER WILL and so

Ahhhhh, 'whosoever...' Interesting. So it's true, of course, 'whosoever,' but here again, there are two different senses in which to understand the 'whosoever.' Both John, in John 3:16, and Paul, in Romans 10:13, are referring to and using in the same context 'whosoever' as the prophet Joel does in Joel 2:32, where the 'whosoever' depends, for any one person, on whom the Lord calls, which is a limited group, and not everyone. Joel says, "it shall come to pass that everyone who calls on the name of the Lord shall be saved. For in Mount Zion and in Jerusalem there shall be those who escape, as the Lord has said, and among the survivors shall be those whom the Lord calls." So, the 'everyone' there, the 'whosoever,' are every one of the persons the Lord calls, and obviously not every single person. John even makes this differentiation explicitly in John 3:18... "Whosoever believes in Him is not condemned, but whosoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God."

I used my WILL to turn from my sins and receive Jesus as my Lord and Savior.

Certainly, you did... when you were, having been born again of the Spirit, no longer dead in your sin. Paul is very clear in Ephesians 2:1-8...

"And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience⁠ ~ among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ⁠~ by grace you have been saved⁠ ~ and raised us up with Him and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the coming ages He might show the immeasurable riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God."

Had I had some calvinists witness to me and tell me that their "god" (who they falsely claim is Jesus) does not want me and decided that I could not be born again and get saved...

Yeah, so you didn't have any Calvinist tell you that. Good. I mean, no Calvinist would, else he or she not be a Calvinist at all...

I see now why calvinists don't go out and witness to people.

Where'd you ever get that silly idea? How did you ever come to... "see" ...that total falsehood? <chuckles>

If they were being honest about their false doctrine...

The issue, at least immediately here, is understanding what their... "doctrine" ... I think you mean to say their understanding of Biblical doctrine(s) ... is in the first place. Which you ~ and most Arminians ~ do not... or may, actually, but in the case that they do, make it out to be something very different than what it is, which makes them dishonest, even with themselves. And you're not the only one here doing... whichever one of those two things it is... <smile>

Again...

Grace and peace to you.

 

[PinSeeker]

I could not care less what you think of me.

Good. Same here.

LOL. Yeah, okay. Let's just conveniently forget all the times you've said rude things to me, shall we? One of us thinks he is holier than everyone and is very overly sensitive and easily offended and can't handle disagreement very well on a forum where disagreement and debate is expected.

<chuckles>

And I'll give you a hint which one of us that is. It's not me.

Yes it iiiiiii-iiiisssssss... <smile>

It's interesting that you keep saying "another miss" when I haven't missed even once.

Yes you haaaaaa-aaaaaaaaaavvvve... <smile> But don't worry, you're not the only one... <smile> Yeah you and Danny Boy, here... You boys are... characters. <smile>

But, this is you over and over again...

"Ouch." <chuckles>

Grace and peace to you.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

Well first of all, the devil never said such a stupid thing, and second (last) of all Calvin (and Calvinists of course) don't believe such a stupid thing.

The calvinists claim man kind has no free will.

Oddly, you used your free will to believe that false doctrine.

They falsely believe that Calvinists claim that, yes. <smile> I mean, if God actually wanted anyone to go to hell, that would make Him... not God...

Thank you for verifying that you are in direct opposition to the Word of the Lord which plainly says:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

there are two different senses in which to understand the 'whosoever.'

Demon talk for "God lied in His Word"

That's how the deceived roll, they teach in opposition to what God has said as the calvinsplain God's Word to trick people in to not believing scripture and instead follow calvinist cult doctrine.

That's how we know they are being taught by the devil, which is how the devil tricked Adam and Eve in to not believing what God said too.

Certainly, you did...

Yes, because I don't follow the false doctrines of calvinism I can submit myself to the Lord to walk in agreement with Him.

Calvinists are required by their cult to follow what Calvin's carnal man made fake religious teachings rather than the Doctrine of Christ so sadly they can't walk with the Lord being so busy being led by the devil to follow false doctrine and all.

The way of the transgressor is hard (Proverbs 13:15), so it's really a hard time trying to be a calvinist.

Where'd you ever get that silly idea? How did you ever come to... "see" ...that total falsehood?

Yeah, if you people witnesses to sinners out in the world you would have to tell each person that most likely God decided to not provide salvation for them since calvinists falsely Jesus only went to the Cross for a few people and they all just happen to be calvinists.

Again...

Yes, of course calvinists drink the booze, another work of the flesh satan has them trapped in.

 

[PinSeeker]

The calvinists claim man kind has no free will.

<sigh> No... no, they don't, Danny Boy. They... "claim"... because God's Word is very clear on it... Jesus is, in fact, and Paul and Peter... that as a result of the fall, man is dead in the sin in which he walks and follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, living in the passions of his flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and is by nature a child of wrath... a child of the devil, as Jesus says in John 6, 8, and 10, especially 8:44. He does need to be set free, though, by the law of the Spirit of life, set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, as Paul says is the case of Christians in Romans 8.

And, yet again, this whole... argument... is moot, really, because what is at issue is not the will and whether it is free or not, but the heart, and whether it is of stone ~ in which case the man is still a child of the devil, not having been born again of the Spirit ~ or of flesh... of God, the man in that case having been born again of the Spirit and made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2)... caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for him, who by God’s power is being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1).

Yeah, you're... an interesting person, Dan. <smile> And yeah, you're not the only one... <smile>

Go well

Thank you for verifying that you are in direct opposition to the Word of the Lord which plainly says:

1 Timothy 2:1-4
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty.
For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;
Who will have ALL men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Okay, Danny, how do you reconcile that fact ~ and it is a fact, of course; the Word of God is true ~ with the fact that not all are or will be saved, that, as God says Himself, through Paul, of course, that only those He calls ~ His elect, those who He chooses to have mercy and compassion on, from the Gentiles as well as the Jews ~ are saved... and ultimately glorified? (Romans 8-9, especially) That's a rhetorical question, of course; anyone with an intelligence quotient above say three should be able to reconcile those things correctly... Yes, He would have all men to be saved, but... <smile> ...sadly, not all are... not all will be. Not all will He have mercy... compassion... on; only His elect, which... "depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, Who has mercy... He has mercy on whomever He wills, and He hardens whomever He wills" (Romans 9:16-18). How do you reconcile this with the fact that He would have all men to be saved? No need to answer, but do what you want, certainly...

So, yeah, it's you who... and again, you're not alone... and I wouldn't say you personally are in direct opposition to the Word of the Lord, because I wouldn't insult you like you would me... <smile> But some of the things you (and others) think about these things are in direct contradiction of it.

...the devil tricked Adam and Eve in to not believing what God said too.

Eve was deceived (2 Corinthians 11:3, 1 Timothy 2:14 ~ "Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived..."); Adam was not. And just to add, if one is deceived, it does not necessarily mean he or she does not believe the thing about which he (or she) is deceived... the point being, it's not a valid conclusion that Adam or Eve at any point disbelieved God. Adam did disobey, however, and also failed in his duty to keep his wife from sinning... and even went along with her, thereby implicitly giving approval, so his sin was far greater.

...calvinists drink the booze...

I do like booze, in moderation of course, from time to time, yes. <smile> Even Jesus imbibed occasionally... HAHAHAHA!!!

Hoo....boy. Yeah, you're a character all right. And again, you're not the only one, so there's that... <smile>

Grace and peace to you, Danny Boy. Go well.

 

[Dan Clarkston]

<sigh> No... no, they don't, Danny Boy.

<sigh> Actually... yes, they do Pin Seeker Boy.

They... "claim"... because God's Word is very clear on it... Jesus is, in fact, and Paul and Peter... that as a result of the fall, man is dead in the sin in which he walks and follows the course of this world, follows the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience, living in the passions of his flesh, carrying out the desires of the flesh and the mind, and is by nature a child of wrath... a child of the devil, as Jesus says in John 6, 8, and 10, especially 8:44. He does need to be set free, though, by the law of the Spirit of life, set free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death, as Paul says is the case of Christians in Romans 8.

And, yet again, this whole... argument... is moot, really, because what is at issue is not the will and whether it is free or not, but the heart, and whether it is of stone ~ in which case the man is still a child of the devil, not having been born again of the Spirit ~ or of flesh... of God, the man in that case having been born again of the Spirit and made alive in Christ (Ephesians 2)... caused to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for him, who by God’s power is being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time (1 Peter 1).

None of that rant proves man does not have free will.

If man really does not have free will, then God would be unjust to judge anybody for their sins.

This is yet another of many ways we know calvinism is demonic because it's always in opposition to what God says in His Word which they cannot understanding due to being blinded by the devil in to agreeing with the devil's scripture twisting.

Okay, Danny, how do you reconcile that fact ~ and it is a fact, of course; the Word of God is true ~ with the fact that not all are or will be saved, that, as God says Himself, through Paul, of course, that only those He calls ~ His elect, those who He chooses to have mercy and compassion on, from the Gentiles as well as the Jews ~ are saved... and ultimately glorified? (Romans 8-9, especially)

Here's another example of calvinist scripture twisting

You people reject the rest of the Word of God on this topic because that's what the devil trained the calvinists to do.

The devil trained the calvinists to be cherry pickers and the verse they do acknowledge they twist.

I wouldn't insult you like you would me

I'm insulting the devil and it makes the calvinists mad because he's their father.

I do like booze

Yews, of course you do. That tracks.

 

[PinSeeker]

<sigh> Actually... yes, they do Pin Seeker Boy.

He says, with no reasoning behind it...

None of that rant proves man does not have free will.

Well that might make some sense, if I was trying, in any way whatsoever, to prove man does not have free will... And again, to say man has no free would be basically to say man does not have a brain and no ability to think, both of which are ridiculous... "thoughts."

f man really does not have free will, then God would be unjust to judge anybody for their sins.

Um, okay, but man does have free will (see directly above)... so God being unjust in judging anyone is equally ridiculous.

This is yet another of many ways we know calvinism is demonic because it's always in opposition to what God says in His Word which they cannot understanding due to being blinded by the devil in to agreeing with the devil's scripture twisting.

Again, without any reasoning. As well as being without basis whatsoever (see directly above). You're just ranting, Dan.

Here's another example of calvinist scripture twisting

You people reject the rest of the Word of God on this topic because that's what the devil trained the calvinists to do.

The devil trained the calvinists to be cherry pickers and the verse they do acknowledge they twist.

<chuckles> Yeah, just a mindless rant. You're just kind of pouring rocks on your own head, Dan...

I'm insulting the devil and it makes the calvinists mad because he's their father.

<eye roll> Calling Christians not Christians is... totally uncool... But suit yourself. Of the two of us, you're obviously the mad one. Such hatred... Which is opposite the fruit of the Spirit...

Yews, of course you do. That tracks.

LOL.

Grace and peace to you, Dan.

 

[Anchorite]

Murderer... You know, King David was a murderer... <smile>

John Calvin was not. He merely acknowledged that Servetus was guilty of heresy (which he was), and heresy was a crime punishable by death in Switzerland in those days. Calvin actually tried to persuade Servetus ~ pleaded with him, actually ~ to recant, but Servetus would not. But you know don't let anyone stop you from trying to rewrite history...

Grace and peace to you.

You smile after saying King David was a murderer? David repented, Calvin did not.

John Calvin advocated the execution of his theological opponents.

Calvin did not patiently discuss his differences with people who promoted competing ideas. Calvin requested beheadings, made death threats, and praised God for orchestrating the torture of heretics.

Calvin spelled out his theologically reinforced vengeance in a personal letter:

“I am persuaded that it is not without the special will of God that, apart from any verdict of the judges, the criminals have endured protracted torment at the hands of the executioner.”- Calvin's letter to Farel on 24 July (for more words directly from Calvin’s pen, read Selected Works of John Calvin)

Calvin believed God made sure criminals didn’t die quickly when tortured.

This vengeful attitude and his support for outdated Old Covenant laws that legislated capital punishment for competing theologians that challenged his preferred doctrines look more like ISIS than Jesus.

Personal correspondence and city council records betray John Calvin’s extraordinary influence in Geneva.

Although he was asked to leave in 1538 when he enforced his strict moral standards and pushed for the church’s independent power to excommunicate people, Genevan officials invited him to return in 1541 to resolve church divisions.

Upon his return, the city council approved his Ecclesiastical Ordinances that included the establishment of the Consistory.

The Consistory, a church court that oversaw the discipline of the citizens of Geneva, met every Thursday to review cases (This book is a chronicle of the Consistory’s records from 1542-1544.)

John Calvin led the court.

Although the Consistory did not have the power to imprison, exile, or kill those who were guilty, Calvin could still convince the city magistrates to wield such power when his theological opponents contradicted him.

When Jacques Gruet, a theologian with differing views, placed a letter in Calvin’s pulpit calling him a hypocrite, he was arrested, tortured for a month and beheaded on July 26, 1547.

Gruet's own theological book was later found and burned along with his house while his wife was thrown out into the street to watch.