Gay Marriage

[RANDOR]

MaDad.......once again....good job :)

 

[River Jordan]

Ok so let me get this right, you acquire your views on Christian morality via this secular website? http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page

????????? Um...no. :blink:

You didn't notice that I gave three separate sources for Fischer's hateful rhetoric? Or is this your way of trying to dodge what Fischer has actually said?

Your right this Christian who speaks out against popular secular strong holds and voices his opinion on the matter publically should be shot, how dare he warn the world of their coming peril stupid religious nut job, Jesus died so that homosexuals can be married in the church. How dare anybody try to save them from destruction.

I guess this is your way of dodging what Fischer has actually said. Or does this mean you actually agree with Fischer's statements on gays?

I suffer myself have done since I was 12 years old, since that time I had several encounters until I was in my early 20's, I loathed myself and became at times suicidal, because of those feelings and desires I became a drunk and drug addicted at a ver young age, just to try and mask my feelings.
I wanted to be accepted as a homosexual in the world, problem was i couldn't accept it myself, no matter how intense the desire, the loathing was worse.
I met Jesus late in life long after my last encounter, I learnt Jesus comes first and so i dont live by the flesh, Its my burden to bare and I will carry my cross. This is what repentance is, its not easy, infact its miserable. I want to do what i please with my body, I want to smoke dope and get drunk. but these feelings are not greater then my desire to follow Christ. So now I maybe miserable at 38 years old but I am also free from oppression. Im not in the closet because Im not gay, God didnt make me that way, What I am is a child of the living God (This is my identity) I carry my burden with the assurance of the coming of the Kingdom.

I have a wife I love whom I have never cheated on and an 18 year old son in Bible college, but dont for a second think that any of those old feelings have gone away, I call on the might of the Holy Spirit who lives in me to guide my steps, he walks for me so I dont have to bare the full weight, I find reassurance in the Word and I am strengthened.

Sin drives fear, fear of the Lord drives us to obedience, obedience to God sets us free from sin, freedom from sin is freedom from fear and thus joy in the lord, If the Lord sets you free, you are free indeed.

Genesis 4:6-7
the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? “If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

I wish you the best of luck with your struggles and I pray that God give you and those around you strength and peace.

 

[Madad21]

????????? Um...no. :blink:

You didn't notice that I gave three separate sources for Fischer's hateful rhetoric? Or is this your way of trying to dodge what Fischer has actually said?


I guess this is your way of dodging what Fischer has actually said. Or does this mean you actually agree with Fischer's statements on gays?

Then ummm why use it? :blink:

yes I agree with Fischer and the others because they obviously advocate the firing squad for gays
those horrible nasty gay hating God lovers. trying to make homosexuality look bad. next they'll be saying that hell is a bad place to end up!

I dont need luck, I have Christ. but thanks anyway.

 

[River Jordan]

Then ummm why use it? :blink:

Again, it was one part of a set of sources for Fischer's hateful rhetoric. Are you saying they misrepresented his statements? If not, why are you so focused on one source rather than what Fisher actually said?

yes I agree with Fischer and the others because they obviously advocate the firing squad for gays
those horrible nasty gay hating God lovers. trying to make homosexuality look bad. next they'll be saying that hell is a bad place to end up!

I'm starting to think you either didn't even look at Fischer's statements, or you agree with them but don't want to admit it.

 

[Madad21]

I dont disagree with all of them.

BTW dont point your finger at me saying I ignored most of you post when you did the same thing to my original post.

 

[River Jordan]

I dont disagree with all of them.

BTW dont point your finger at me saying I ignored most of you post when you did the same thing to my original post.

?????????????? I never said anything about you ignoring most of my posts. :blink:

Whatevs guy....thanks for your input.

 

[Madad21]

?????????????? I never said anything about you ignoring most of my posts. :blink:

Whatevs guy....thanks for your input.

Look Im sorry about how I came back in to this conversation yesterday, I could have been more tactful, I have no excuse except for the fact that I was very tired when I should have been in bed I was trying to talk on a forum which is never a good move (curse of the shift worker), and as a result shared information about myself that I may not have otherwise, but I cant turn back time.

Your right some of the things these guys have said isnt quite right, provided they havent been misquoted or misinterpreted by witch hunting media organisations looking to make a buck. which is sometimes the case.

However that doesnt excuse the things they have said that were wrong. so I apologize humbly.

This what I want to say (please bare with me I havent read all of this thread so just take from it what you can and forgive me for the rest)

I saw you talking about your friend to wormwood, and trust me I can feel his pain, but if you really want to help him you cant do it from the fence. I know you dont want to loose your friend and neither should you, but if you are truly for Christ you need to be against the enemy. Im not saying your friend is the enemy, what I am saying is that we live in a fallen world and your friend has been afflicted by it (like I have been). Now I saw wormwood gave you a great many good answers, but what it looked like to me is you want people to tell you what you want to hear. that your friend as long as he loves Jesus will have salvation. Now weather this is true or not is up to Christ, but if you believe in Jesus you need to believe his Word and search for the answer there. You will find your answer in prayer and reading.

Thing is the people in my life loved me so much they told me things I didnt want to hear, these people saved my life.

Its painful and hard and its not going to be easy, but we have to place our hope in Christ and find our identities in him. If you truly believe then this is where you need to strengthen your faith, understand what "Christian hope" is this is where you find your strength and overcome fear and the same for your friend. You obviously have a gift for analysis which is awesome and you have heart, but from what I have seen you lack a theological understanding of Scripture (dont be insulted). If we love Jesus we have hope and we understand what that hope is what the assurances are for our future. If we can perceive that hope we can find identity in a God who has called us and wants us to be with him. This in the end far outweighs all other earthly rational. If we love Jesus we want to follow him and abide by his words. If the word tells us that homosexuality is wrong, then it is. and not just for any reason, not just to be nasty, but because of what it does to a persons spirit. God hates it because of what it does to us, thankfully he provides a way out, but it takes application and patience.
Personally it took me almost 40 years to screw up my life, its going to take me the rest of my life to fix it. Not because I have guilt or I am oppressed but because I love Jesus and I am grateful for what he has done for me (the Cross). I want to change, I want to be free from fear and be free to worship and love not just myself but others.

I think your great River and please forgive me if I have misunderstood or taken your posts wrong, But weather Im wrong or not what I have said above is true. look for answers in the word and keep praying. Our Father never lets us down.

Much love too you

Blessings

 

[Wormwood]

Wormwood,

It's interesting to me how you keep thinking that just by asking some questions, trying to see this from the perspective of a gay person, and having an appreciation for exactly what we're saying to them (you must divorce/break up with your partner and become celibate), I'm therefore defending their lifestyle, attacking the church, advocating a mute approach, etc.

Unless you get over those fundamental misconceptions, we're just going to keep talking past each other.

Well I find it somewhat demeaning that you would suggest I cannot see your intent behind your questions. They do not seem like genuine questions to me as you clearly have your mind quite settled on the issue. I don't find this type of rhetoric to be constructive for the church. In my opinion, it only leaves the church with the paralysis of analysis. Id rather, with clean conscience, act and be in error than sit and do nothing for fear that I might make a mistake. Its easier to redirect the living than to raise the dead.

Moreover, I know exactly what I am saying to them. And I have shown you that Jesus, on multiple occasions, insisted that people make such decisions before following him. I refuse to preach a Christianity without repentance. It seems you are implying that people will just fall in love with Jesus because Christians are such nice people who make no demands of them...and after falling in love with Jesus, they will turn from sinful behaviors, perhaps, in their own time. This is a distortion of who Christ is, what he called his followers to do and teach and makes Christianity a feel-good religion with no expectations or sacrifice. It is Christianity without a cross and it is far closer to Gnosticism than historic Christianity. Faith is not mere consent to an idea and grace is not license to live in a fashion that grieves God. I think these are the issues causing us to talk past each other.

 

[River Jordan]

Look Im sorry about how I came back in to this conversation yesterday, I could have been more tactful, I have no excuse except for the fact that I was very tired when I should have been in bed I was trying to talk on a forum which is never a good move (curse of the shift worker), and as a result shared information about myself that I may not have otherwise, but I cant turn back time.

Your right some of the things these guys have said isnt quite right, provided they havent been misquoted or misinterpreted by witch hunting media organisations looking to make a buck. which is sometimes the case.

However that doesnt excuse the things they have said that were wrong. so I apologize humbly.

Aw, no worries. I appreciate your apology. :)

I saw you talking about your friend to wormwood, and trust me I can feel his pain, but if you really want to help him you cant do it from the fence. I know you dont want to loose your friend and neither should you, but if you are truly for Christ you need to be against the enemy. Im not saying your friend is the enemy, what I am saying is that we live in a fallen world and your friend has been afflicted by it (like I have been). Now I saw wormwood gave you a great many good answers, but what it looked like to me is you want people to tell you what you want to hear. that your friend as long as he loves Jesus will have salvation. Now weather this is true or not is up to Christ, but if you believe in Jesus you need to believe his Word and search for the answer there. You will find your answer in prayer and reading.

And that's exactly my point....whether or not a person...any person...is saved is not up to me, it is up to Christ. And what you said there is exactly what I say to all my non-Christian friends...read scripture, pray, and let God be your guide.

Thing is the people in my life loved me so much they told me things I didnt want to hear, these people saved my life.

Its painful and hard and its not going to be easy, but we have to place our hope in Christ and find our identities in him. If you truly believe then this is where you need to strengthen your faith, understand what "Christian hope" is this is where you find your strength and overcome fear and the same for your friend. You obviously have a gift for analysis which is awesome and you have heart, but from what I have seen you lack a theological understanding of Scripture (dont be insulted). If we love Jesus we have hope and we understand what that hope is what the assurances are for our future. If we can perceive that hope we can find identity in a God who has called us and wants us to be with him. This in the end far outweighs all other earthly rational. If we love Jesus we want to follow him and abide by his words. If the word tells us that homosexuality is wrong, then it is. and not just for any reason, not just to be nasty, but because of what it does to a persons spirit. God hates it because of what it does to us, thankfully he provides a way out, but it takes application and patience.
Personally it took me almost 40 years to screw up my life, its going to take me the rest of my life to fix it. Not because I have guilt or I am oppressed but because I love Jesus and I am grateful for what he has done for me (the Cross). I want to change, I want to be free from fear and be free to worship and love not just myself but others.

And that's the thing...I have absolutely no idea what any of that is like...at all. I don't know what it's like to be attracted to members of the same sex, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if I were told that I have no choice but to be celibate for the rest of my life and never, ever have a true romantic relationship. That's a huge, enormous thing to ask of someone; it's not like asking them to give up meat or driving on Saturdays. So to me, I don't feel it's at all my place to make that sort of demand of anyone. That's between them and God, not between them, me, and God.

How can I tell them "This is what you must do" if I have absolutely no understanding of what they're experiencing or what I'm asking them to do?

I think your great River and please forgive me if I have misunderstood or taken your posts wrong, But weather Im wrong or not what I have said above is true. look for answers in the word and keep praying. Our Father never lets us down.

Much love too you

Blessings

You too! Thanks so much. :)

Well I find it somewhat demeaning that you would suggest I cannot see your intent behind your questions.

Well, I guess that's just unfortunate. You keep accusing me of defending homosexuality and attacking the church, when I've done neither. Repeat that enough times and what else can I say other than, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying?

They do not seem like genuine questions to me as you clearly have your mind quite settled on the issue. I don't find this type of rhetoric to be constructive for the church. In my opinion, it only leaves the church with the paralysis of analysis. Id rather, with clean conscience, act and be in error than sit and do nothing for fear that I might make a mistake. Its easier to redirect the living than to raise the dead.

I understand how to Christians of a more conservative viewpoint that seems like the way to be. "Give me a clear answer, even if it's the wrong one. I don't want to waste time thinking about it." Not everyone thinks that way though.

It seems you are implying that people will just fall in love with Jesus because Christians are such nice people who make no demands of them

And there I think is one of our disagreements. Why is it my place to make demands of anyone? Do they have to answer to me when they mess up?

As long as we're sharing our impressions, it seems to me you have an authoritarian approach to your role as a Christian. You're not just here to spread God's word, you're also here to enforce it. You see yourself as having the authority to make demands of people and hold them accountable.

I don't see it that way. IMO, God is the one who makes demands of us and holds us accountable. Our role as a Christian community is to support each other in our daily struggles.

...and after falling in love with Jesus, they will turn from sinful behaviors, perhaps, in their own time.

Isn't that what we all do? Or are you from a background where your turn from sin wasn't because of your relationship with Christ, but out of fear of consequences from your fellow Christians?

This is a distortion of who Christ is, what he called his followers to do and teach and makes Christianity a feel-good religion with no expectations or sacrifice. It is Christianity without a cross and it is far closer to Gnosticism than historic Christianity. Faith is not mere consent to an idea and grace is not license to live in a fashion that grieves God. I think these are the issues causing us to talk past each other.

Then you and I have very different views on this.

 

[Madad21]

And that's the thing...I have absolutely no idea what any of that is like...at all. I don't know what it's like to be attracted to members of the same sex, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if I were told that I have no choice but to be celibate for the rest of my life and never, ever have a true romantic relationship. That's a huge, enormous thing to ask of someone; it's not like asking them to give up meat or driving on Saturdays. So to me, I don't feel it's at all my place to make that sort of demand of anyone. That's between them and God, not between them, me, and God.

How can I tell them "This is what you must do" if I have absolutely no understanding of what they're experiencing or what I'm asking them to do?

I too understand this there are people in my life who live in a way that worries me, however we are to be patient and show grace.
those people I spoke too only counseled me because I went to them with my problems. (eventually)
They loved me enough not to judge me but help me understand Gods love for me, with the understanding of that love I learnt the rest. Actually the sexual problem wasn't even my biggest problem, my biggest problem was hanging on to regret and it has been the only time a dear friend had to give me a hard word.

All we can do is love, were not saying that what a person is doing is right, but were not judging them either and if they come to us for help we owe it to them to be honest even if that honesty is hard to take (is what I should have said earlier). Im not going to lie to someone and tell them that their homosexual lifestyle is okay by Christ, but I will telll them that Christ loves them and cares about what they do. Its up to that person to seek the rest of that answer.

 

[Wormwood]

Aw, no worries. I appreciate your apology. :)

And that's exactly my point....whether or not a person...any person...is saved is not up to me, it is up to Christ. And what you said there is exactly what I say to all my non-Christian friends...read scripture, pray, and let God be your guide.

And that's the thing...I have absolutely no idea what any of that is like...at all. I don't know what it's like to be attracted to members of the same sex, and I can't even imagine what it would be like if I were told that I have no choice but to be celibate for the rest of my life and never, ever have a true romantic relationship. That's a huge, enormous thing to ask of someone; it's not like asking them to give up meat or driving on Saturdays. So to me, I don't feel it's at all my place to make that sort of demand of anyone. That's between them and God, not between them, me, and God.

How can I tell them "This is what you must do" if I have absolutely no understanding of what they're experiencing or what I'm asking them to do?

You too! Thanks so much. :)


Well, I guess that's just unfortunate. You keep accusing me of defending homosexuality and attacking the church, when I've done neither. Repeat that enough times and what else can I say other than, you're misunderstanding what I'm saying?

I feel like I have been giving very reasonable and moderate responses to dealing with these issues. Not only have you continued to challenge my responses but you seem very intent with your questions and responses that encouraging people away form homosexual behaviors is a wrong and even hateful and insensitive course of action. Am I wrong here?

I understand how to Christians of a more conservative viewpoint that seems like the way to be. "Give me a clear answer, even if it's the wrong one. I don't want to waste time thinking about it." Not everyone thinks that way though.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It appears im not the only one "misunderstanding what Im saying."


And there I think is one of our disagreements. Why is it my place to make demands of anyone? Do they have to answer to me when they mess up?

I am talking about making disciples. Calling people to become followers of Christ involved repentance. I don't know how I can be more clear. Certainly I am not proposing going out and demanding all homosexuals stop their behavior. I am talking about a one-on-one relationship where one who knows Christ is lovingly inviting someone else to follow Christ. Is this not what we have been talking about all along?

As long as we're sharing our impressions, it seems to me you have an authoritarian approach to your role as a Christian. You're not just here to spread God's word, you're also here to enforce it. You see yourself as having the authority to make demands of people and hold them accountable.

What are you talking about? I think the issue here is what does it mean to spread God's Word. Is it simply spreading info, or is a call to a new life and allegiance. I would say its the latter. Its not about "enforcing" anything. Its about appropriately proclaiming and teaching what it means to follow Christ.

 

[River Jordan]

I too understand this there are people in my life who live in a way that worries me, however we are to be patient and show grace.
those people I spoke too only counseled me because I went to them with my problems. (eventually)
They loved me enough not to judge me but help me understand Gods love for me, with the understanding of that love I learnt the rest. Actually the sexual problem wasn't even my biggest problem, my biggest problem was hanging on to regret and it has been the only time a dear friend had to give me a hard word.

All we can do is love, were not saying that what a person is doing is right, but were not judging them either and if they come to us for help we owe it to them to be honest even if that honesty is hard to take (is what I should have said earlier). Im not going to lie to someone and tell them that their homosexual lifestyle is okay by Christ, but I will telll them that Christ loves them and cares about what they do. Its up to that person to seek the rest of that answer.

Very well said.

I feel like I have been giving very reasonable and moderate responses to dealing with these issues.

I'm sure everyone here feels like everything they post is reasonable.

Not only have you continued to challenge my responses

Is that allowed? By merely challenging your responses am I "attacking the church"?

but you seem very intent with your questions and responses that encouraging people away form homosexual behaviors is a wrong and even hateful and insensitive course of action. Am I wrong here?

Yes, you're very wrong. The only time I've used the term "hateful" was in reference to some of the extreme rhetoric coming from FotF and FRC. I've been consistently advocating being aware of just what it is you say to gays, how they will perceive it, and just how personal all this is.

Yeah, that's what I was saying. It appears im not the only one "misunderstanding what Im saying."

Well, let's see...

You said, "Id rather, with clean conscience, act and be in error than sit and do nothing for fear that I might make a mistake". Is that not "Give me a clear answer even if it's wrong"?

You said, "In my opinion, it only leaves the church with the paralysis of analysis". Is that not "Don't waste time thinking about it"?

I am talking about making disciples. Calling people to become followers of Christ involved repentance. I don't know how I can be more clear. Certainly I am not proposing going out and demanding all homosexuals stop their behavior. I am talking about a one-on-one relationship where one who knows Christ is lovingly inviting someone else to follow Christ. Is this not what we have been talking about all along?

Yep. Good to know we agree on that.

What are you talking about? I think the issue here is what does it mean to spread God's Word. Is it simply spreading info, or is a call to a new life and allegiance. I would say its the latter. Its not about "enforcing" anything. Its about appropriately proclaiming and teaching what it means to follow Christ.

Ok then.

 

[Wormwood]

I'm sure everyone here feels like everything they post is reasonable.

Is that allowed? By merely challenging your responses am I "attacking the church"?

No, I've been saying the church has done some things right and some things wrong. You seem unsettled by the notion that some are doing it right. It comes across as if you are attacking the church because you have nothing but negative things to say about the church. In all my time watching your posts on this site, I have never seen you say one positive thing about the Church or Christian responses to this issue. I think one positive example is worth 10 negative ones.

Yep. Good to know we agree on that.

I thought I was clear that this was about disciple making and not about passing laws or arguing about civil rights. I guess I was not clear enough.

Ok then.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

Know why there are queers and faggots ?
God made them that way

Know why ?
Romans 1:19
Romans 1:20

And then:
Romans 1:24
Romans 1:26
Romans 1:27

 

[Madad21]

Know why there are queers and faggots ?

LOL!!!.. Arnie standing a little too close to the rotor blades buddy!!

This is gonna go down like a led helicopter....arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh KABOOM!!!

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

LOL!!!.. Arnie standing a little too close to the rotor blades buddy!!

This is gonna go down like a led helicopter....arghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh KABOOM!!!

Yup ... I got whacked on the head pretty good

I can no longer say "gay" .... and God wants his rainbow back too !!!!!!!

 

[River Jordan]

No, I've been saying the church has done some things right and some things wrong.

Funny...that's what I've been saying too (except I don't refer to "the church").

You seem unsettled by the notion that some are doing it right.

I could say the same about you. What constitutes "doing it right" differs from denomination to denomination.

And then Arnie joins the thread and makes my point for me.

It comes across as if you are attacking the church because you have nothing but negative things to say about the church. In all my time watching your posts on this site, I have never seen you say one positive thing about the Church or Christian responses to this issue. I think one positive example is worth 10 negative ones.

I'm pretty sure you think that way because I've been disagreeing with some of what you've said. I see a lot of people here who can't differentiate between "disagreeing" and "attacking".

 

[Wormwood]

No, I think this way because I have been reading your posts for a long time now. It has little to do with your disagreement with me. Your examples are often cultural and point to large Christian groups and point out errors and excesses...never correct approaches. Clearly this is not just a matter of disagreeing with my ideas.

It seems clear you are determined to not give an inch and are more set on winning an argument than seeking any kind of edification of individuals or church groups. I don't see any fruit coming from this discussion or the potential for it going forward. Take care.

 

[aspen]

yeah this thread has run its course.
as far as feel good Christianity - every one who is happier then the next guy is practicing a weaker faith - rediculous. the true Gnostics are church hating! nontrinarian dualists and they are well represented on the board.

 

[Angelina]

As per the above thoughts; this thread has done it's dash. Topic closed. Please do not consider resurrecting it.

Peace!