Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Matthias]

“The real Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of the living God, was crucified and died on the cross.” Yahweh approves this message. Allah brands this message a lie.

If Yahweh and Allah are the same God then God is contradicting himself.

P.S.

That is my position, not necessarily yours. I should have phrased it as a question in order to offer you an opportunity to state your position on the statement: If Yahweh and Allah are the same God then isn’t God contradicting himself?

 

[Matthias]

Good morning Matthias.
I’ve been a Bahai for seven years. Before that I navigated atheism for about 20 years.
Baha’is sacred writings don’t have a single name. We just call them “The Writings”. They include those of The Báb, Bahá’u’lláh and Abdul’ Bahá. We also consider inspired interpretations of the former writings the statements of Shoghi Effendi and the Universal House of Justice.

We regard the Bible and the Quran as revealed by God.
The Avesta, The Vedas and in general the sacred textbooks of Hinduism and Buddhism are greatly respected and honored, and read from time to time in special meetings.

Thank you. I’ve personally known only one Baha‘i prior to meeting you, and that was when he and I were both teenagers. He was a kind and gentle soul but we didn’t speak much about our faiths. You are increasing my knowledge and understanding about the Baha’i faith; I appreciate that and you.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Then it isn’t the same God and it isn’t the same Christ.



Similarity.

Why would you consider John McArthurs’ statement as definitive, while my statements as mere “similarity”?

I could also build, for the sake of exercise, dozens of statements that show that the Yahveh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the Yahweh presented in another book of the Bible. I could do it easily, based on my long background as an atheist.

To refute those statements, Matthias, you would show those discrepancies as only APPARENT.
To show that they are apparent, you would explain how the context in which Yahweh said or did X was different from the context in which Yahweh said or did Y.

Well, this is the very same thing that I could do to show that Allah, under the Bahai perspective, is Yahveh.
For all the incompatibilities you could present or quote, I would point out the differences in context, so that the supposed incompatibilities are only apparent.

 

[Matthias]

Why would you consider John McArthurs’ statement as definitive, while my statements as mere “similarity”?

MacArthur’s statement is commentary on scripture. I find it persuasive because I see in the Bible that, even before the foundation of the earth, the Messiah was crucified in God’s plan and foreknowledge. This the Muslim must deny, and does.

I acknowledge that your statements demonstrate similarity because I’m persuaded that Yahweh and Allah are saying the same thing in the examples you offered for my consideration.

I could also build, for the sake of exercise, dozens of statements that show that the Yahveh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the Yahweh presented in another book of the Bible. I could do it easily, based on my long background as an atheist.

You would find them persuasive; I wouldn’t. See below.

To refute those statements, Matthias, you would show those discrepancies as only APPARENT.
To show that they are apparent, you would explain how the context in which Yahweh said or did X was different from the context in which Yahweh said or did Y.

Well, this is the very same thing that I could do to show that Allah, under the Bahai perspective, is Yahveh.
For all the incompatibilities you could present or quote, I would point out the differences in context, so that the supposed incompatibilities are only apparent.

Where does that leave us? I would say that it leaves us without agreement but with a better understanding of what the other believes and why he believes it.

 

[Matthias]

@Pancho Frijoles is something only an apparent contradiction simply because someone says that it is? I don’t think so and I doubt that you do either. Everyone must examine the evidence and decide in his or her own mind.



This is a police photograph. One of these $20 bills is genuine; one is a counterfeit.

Would you or I be fooled by the counterfeit? I almost certainly would be. Why? Because they are so similar in appearance, and because I never take the time to sit down and carefully examine $20 bills. I stuff it in my wallet and move on, happily believing that I have a genuine bill in my pocket and at my disposal.

There is no doubt that the two bills in the photograph are similar. The miscreant is able to get away with passing off the false as the true because of the similarity. No similarity, no passing it off. The greater the similarity the greater the chance of deceiving the unwary and unsuspecting.

I could easily be deceived by this counterfeit.

If the captured criminal should offer in his defense that the difference in them is only apparent, not real, he will not escape, will he?

Taking it to the extreme, I could not be deceived by this counterfeit:



There is very little similarity at all between this and a genuine $20 bill. (It’s from a popular board game, Monopoly.) The ”it’s only an apparent contradiction” argument is so weak with this one that only a child could be taken in by it.

 

[Matthias]

“Jesus was not crucified; he didn’t die on the cross. Someone else was crucified and died in his place, someone who looked like him but wasn’t him; it was actually Simon of Cyrene, made by Allah to look like Jesus.”

My Muslim friend told me this @Pancho Frijoles. [As the conversation took place no later than 2016 and he is not here to confirm it, I’m fine with saying that it is a paraphrase (I’ve stated it as best I can recall it from memory, the exact wording may have been slightly different) and anecdotal.]

He and I were easily able to agree that this is not what is written in the New Testament. I assume that you and I would just as easily be able to agree that it isn’t. It contradicts what is written in the New Testament; a real contradiction, not just an apparent contradiction. There is no “my interpretation vs. your interpretation” case to be presented in this instance.

What stands out to me in my friend’s statement isn’t that it contradicts what is written in the New Testament. What stands out to me is that Allah intentionally did this in order to deceive those who witnessed the event.

In light of what my Muslim friend told me, would you still maintain that Yahweh and Allah are the same God?

 

[Matthias]

I could also build, for the sake of exercise, dozens of statements that show that the Yahveh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the Yahweh presented in another book of the Bible. I could do it easily, based on my long background as an atheist.

As you are no longer an atheist:

(1) Do you now believe that “the Yahweh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the Yahweh presented in another book of the Bible”? (If not, then why would I be persuaded to believe something that you yourself don’t believe?)

(2) Do you believe you could build such a case for Allah in one specific Sura of the Quran NOT being the same Allah in another Sura of the Quran, based on your background as an atheist? (If so, do you think Muslims would be persuaded by it?)

(3) Do you believe you could build such a case using the sacred writings of other religions to show that the deity in one section of those writings is NOT the same deity in another section of those writings, based on your background as an atheist? (If so, do you think it would be persuasive to those of those religions?)

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

As you are no longer an atheist:

(1) Do you now believe that “the Yahweh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the Yahweh presented in another book of the Bible”? (If not, then why would I be persuaded to believe something that you yourself don’t believe?)

I believe He is the same God. But I also believe He is presented as saying and acting in different ways.
The purpose of such exercise would be to realize that, despite the obvious differences in what Yahveh says and does, we find a way to reconcile these differences, using some reason and much faith.

(2) Do you believe you could build such a case for Allah in one specific Sura of the Quran NOT being the same Allah in another Sura of the Quran, based on your background as an atheist? (If so, do you think Muslims would be persuaded by it?)

Yes, I believe that.
Again, the purpose of such exercise would not be to persuade Muslims to believe that Allah is not the same throughout the Quran, but that despite the obvious differences, we can reconcile them by using some reason and much faith.

(3) Do you believe you could build such a case using the sacred writings of other religions to show that the deity in one section of those writings is NOT the same deity in another section of those writings, based on your background as an atheist? (If so, do you think it would be persuasive to those of those religions]

Yes, I think I would be able to build those cases, provided I knew the texts well enough.
Regarding your second question, the answer is like the ones above.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“Jesus was not crucified; he didn’t die on the cross. Someone else was crucified and died in his place, someone who looked like him but wasn’t him; it was actually Simon of Cyrene, made by Allah to look like Jesus.”

My Muslim friend told me this @Pancho Frijoles. [As the conversation took place no later than 2016 and he is not here to confirm it, I’m fine with saying that it is a paraphrase (I’ve stated it as best I can recall it from memory, the exact wording may have been slightly different) and anecdotal.]

He and I were easily able to agree that this is not what is written in the New Testament. I assume that you and I would just as easily be able to agree that it isn’t. It contradicts what is written in the New Testament; a real contradiction, not just an apparent contradiction. There is no “my interpretation vs. your interpretation” case to be presented in this instance.

What stands out to me in my friend’s statement isn’t that it contradicts what is written in the New Testament. What stands out to me is that Allah intentionally did this in order to deceive those who witnessed the event.

In light of what my Muslim friend told me, would you still maintain that Yahweh and Allah are the same God?

Yes, absolutely.
A different understanding between two believers on what God said or did on a specific issue, does not necessarily mean that their deities are different. Most of the times it doesn’t.

For example: Jews think that Yahweh did not send Jesus as the Messiah. You think He did. Does that make the Yahveh of the Jews another god, which is not the one worshiped by Matthias?
No! The Jews and you hold just different views on what Yahveh did or will do in this regard.
Same God, different beliefs.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, absolutely.
A different understanding between two believers on what God said or did on a specific issue, does not necessarily mean that their deities are different. Most of the times it doesn’t.

For example: Jews think that Yahweh did not send Jesus as the Messiah. You think He did. Does that make the Yahveh of the Jews another god, which is not the one worshiped by Matthias?

No, but see John 8:44.

No! The Jews and you hold just different views on what Yahveh did or will do in this regard.
Same God, different beliefs.

Agreed.

 

[Matthias]

I believe He is the same God. But I also believe He is presented as saying and acting in different ways.
The purpose of such exercise would be to realize that, despite the obvious differences in what Yahveh says and does, we find a way to reconcile these differences, using some reason and much faith.

Yahweh is the same God in every book of the Bible but you can build the case that “the Yahweh presented in one specific book of the Bible is NOT the same Yahweh as presented in another book of the Bible.”

It is the same Yahweh but NOT the same Yahweh strikes me as an unusual way of saying that Yahweh speaks and acts in diverse ways in the Bible. I think I understand with the clarification you provided.

Yes, I believe that.
Again, the purpose of such exercise would not be to persuade Muslims to believe that Allah is not the same throughout the Quran, but that despite the obvious differences, we can reconcile them by using some reason and much faith.

So as with Yahweh and the Bible, “Allah in one specific Sura of the Quran is NOT the Allah of another Sura of the Quran” = Allah speaks and acts diversely in the Quran but is the same God throughout the Quran.

Yes, I think I would be able to build those cases, provided I knew the texts well enough.
Regarding your second question, the answer is like the ones above.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, absolutely.
A different understanding between two believers on what God said or did on a specific issue, does not necessarily mean that their deities are different. Most of the times it doesn’t.

“Most of the times it doesn’t“ -> sometimes it does?

Allah says it didn’t happen. Yahweh says that it did happen. That isn’t a misunderstanding between the Muslim and the Christian. That is a contradiction of Yahweh by Allah.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

“Most of the times it doesn’t“ -> sometimes it does?

Good morning, Matthias. May you have a very blessed week.

To your question, yes, I think so. Otherwise worshiping to false gods would have never existed.
For people of the Abrahamic traditions, though, I don't believe they can resort to any instance in which differences in understanding mean a different God.

Allah says it didn’t happen. Yahweh says that it did happen. That isn’t a misunderstanding between the Muslim and the Christian. That is a contradiction of Yahweh by Allah.

It is a misunderstanding of the text, at least in my view.
Some people believe God meant something that other people think He didn't mean.
In my view, Allah never meant that Jesus was not crucified. Allah meant that the Christ had not been defeated on the cross.

 

[Matthias]

Good morning, Matthias. May you have a very blessed week.

Thank you. And you also.

To your question, yes, I think so. Otherwise worshiping to false gods would have never existed.
For people of the Abrahamic traditions, though, I don't believe they can resort to any instance in which differences in understanding mean a different God.

I can understand the rationale behind that but my god is the devil ... let that sink in.

So say a great many Protestants and Catholics (including their clergy); my destiny - for having once been a trinitarian and then rejecting the Trinity - is said to be the lake of fire. Worse still, anyone I “mislead” by persuading them to believe that the Messiah’s God - the Father alone - is alone the one true God will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Who is the “God” behind that?

That is an Abrahamic religion‘s take on me. The same thought by that particular Abrahamic religion is extended by it to Jews and Muslims. And they, in turn, have similar thoughts about me, as well as about the other Abrahamic religions.

Jesus foresaw his followers being expelled from the synagoue. (He had nothing to say about his followers being expelled from the mosque, which didn’t exit in the 1st century.)

That there is a different “God” at work in these Abrahamic religions shouldn’t be far fetched. The solid ground isn’t, from my perspective, Abrahamic religions / traditions. The solid ground is Jesus of Nazareth, the Messiah, the Son of God. He is my standard, as he is the standard of the Apostles.

It is a misunderstanding of the text, at least in my view.
Some people believe God meant something that other people think He didn't mean.
In my view, Allah never meant that Jesus was not crucified. Allah meant that the Christ had not been defeated on the cross.

You’re offering a non-Islamic commentary on the Quran. Does it find any support in Islamic commentary on the Quran? I haven’t seen any Islamic support for your view but that doesn’t mean that there is none. If you know of any I would be interested in learning about it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

You’re offering a non-Islamic commentary on the Quran. Does it find any support in Islamic commentary on the Quran? I haven’t seen any Islamic support for your view but that doesn’t mean that there is none. If you know of any I would be interested in learning about it.

Hi Matthias

I've not studied the topic carefully. My apologies.
However, we can find in the Wikipedia article on Islamic views on Jesus very interesting information. For example, it states:

In regard to the interpretation of the Muslims who accept the historicity of Jesus' crucifixion, Mahmoud M. Ayoub states:

The Qur'an is not here speaking about a man, righteous and wronged though he may be, but about the Word of God who was sent to earth and returned to God. Thus the denial of killing of Jesus is a denial of the power of men to vanquish and destroy the divine Word, which is for ever victorious.

In addition, the same article points out to the fact that the Ahmadi Muslim Community does believe in the historical crucifixion of Jesus

 

[Matthias]

What trinitarians and

Hi Matthias

I've not studied the topic carefully. My apologies.
However, we can find in the Wikipedia article on Islamic views on Jesus very interesting information. For example, it states:

In regard to the interpretation of the Muslims who accept the historicity of Jesus' crucifixion, Mahmoud M. Ayoub states:



In addition, the same article points out to the fact that the Ahmadi Muslim Community does believe in the historical crucifixion of Jesus

Thank you. According to your source, Mahmoud M. Ajoub was born and raised a Muslim but later became a Christian (Baptist). Without looking into his life any deeper than that, I think he’s probably doing what the trinitarian I alluded to did when he attempted to peruade Muslims that the Quaran, properly understood, teaches that Allah is the Trinity.

The main sects of Islam are critical of the Ahmadis.

My Muslim friend is Sunni. (You’ll recall that he says that Allah intentionally deceived those who believe Jesus was crucified. - you, me, the Jews, the Romans, the Ahmadis, etc.)

 

[Matthias]

I can understand the rationale behind that but my god is the devil ... let that sink in.

So say a great many Protestants and Catholics (including their clergy); my destiny - for having once been a trinitarian and then rejecting the Trinity - is said to be the lake of fire. Worse still, anyone I “mislead” by persuading them to believe that the Messiah’s God - the Father alone - is alone the one true God will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Who is the “God” behind that?

Is isn’t Yahweh. It’s the god of this world, the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4).

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Thank you. And you also.



I can understand the rationale behind that but my god is the devil ... let that sink in.

So say a great many Protestants and Catholics (including their clergy); my destiny - for having once been a trinitarian and then rejecting the Trinity - is said to be the lake of fire. Worse still, anyone I “mislead” by persuading them to believe that the Messiah’s God - the Father alone - is alone the one true God will also be thrown into the lake of fire. Who is the “God” behind that?

Excellent question.
After reading it, first thing that came to my mind is: "Is God what we say He is, or what He indeed is?" (don't know if I framed it in good English). What I mean is that God's identity and existence is independent of all our misunderstandings.

One day I was witnessing a very heated debate on the nature of Jesus. People from both sides felt that the other side was offending Jesus and God by making blasphemous statements. At some point I intervened and said something like: "Well, in the end of the day, God is whoever He actually is, and Jesus is whoever He actually is, regardless of what we think He is. You guys are fighting each other, as if the human belief that proves to be the winner would create the true God or the true Jesus."

As you know, for many atheists, we believers create our gods in our own minds. The fact that some people defend their personal god so fiercely, with such emotional involvement, makes the case for the atheist to conclude that, in reality, we are defending ourselves against something we perceive as a personal threat. Would an Almighty God need to be defended?

The more we insist in "your God is not my God", the more we make the case for the atheist.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

May I ask you, @Matthias, if you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus?
My apologies if it seems off-topic. Just wanted to understand why, for the sake of the argument, you have focused on Jesus crucifixion and not on Jesus bodily resurrection.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Is isn’t Yahweh. It’s the god of this world, the devil (2 Corinthians 4:4).

I agree with you... if I could know that someone really wants you on the lake of fire... or at least wants you to fear the lake of fire in order to accept his/her views. I admit I fiercely fight those guys, because, in that respect or role or position, they are not serving the true Loving God.

But then here I split two things:
One is the Only and True God they seek to worship. The One they ask for forgiveness when they realize they have made something wrong.
A different and false god is whatever makes them say or do something evil.

Jesus called Peter "Satan" in one occasion. This doesn't mean that, for all his faults and misunderstandings, Peter didn't want to worship the only and true Yahweh.