Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

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Matthias

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May I ask you, @Matthias, if you believe in the literal bodily resurrection of Jesus?

Yes, I believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus.

My apologies if it seems off-topic.

I don’t think it’s off-topic. It’s a great question. I’d much rather talk about that than talk about the doctrine which cannot be discussed. The only way back to life for the dead is bodily resurrection.

God doesn’t die. God isn’t bodily resurrected.

Death and bodily resurrection is something which happens to human persons. Death and bodily resurrection can’t be separated from one another.

Just wanted to understand why, for the sake of the argument, you have focused on Jesus crucifixion and not on Jesus bodily resurrection.

I’ve focused on the crucifixion of Jesus because it is something which Muslims have told me proves that Allah has intentionally deceived Jews and Christians; Allah did not allow Jesus to be crucified. (Yahweh did.)
 

Matthias

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Excellent question.
After reading it, first thing that came to my mind is: "Is God what we say He is, or what He indeed is?" (don't know if I framed it in good English). What I mean is that God's identity and existence is independent of all our misunderstandings.

One day I was witnessing a very heated debate on the nature of Jesus. People from both sides felt that the other side was offending Jesus and God by making blasphemous statements. At some point I intervened and said something like: "Well, in the end of the day, God is whoever He actually is, and Jesus is whoever He actually is, regardless of what we think He is. You guys are fighting each other, as if the human belief that proves to be the winner would create the true God or the true Jesus."

As you know, for many atheists, we believers create our gods in our own minds. The fact that some people defend their personal god so fiercely, with such emotional involvement, makes the case for the atheist to conclude that, in reality, we are defending ourselves against something we perceive as a personal threat. Would an Almighty God need to be defended?

The more we insist in "your God is not my God", the more we make the case for the atheist.

The atheist is partially correct. People do make gods in their own minds. The atheist is mistaken when he or she says that all people who believe in a deity make the deity in their own minds.

There are false gods and there are false Jesus’. The atheist doesn’t believe there is a true God and, sometimes, doesn’t even believe there ever was a real, historical, Jesus.

I have no issue with a trinitarian saying that his God isn’t my God. The trinitarian is correct. If an atheist finds support for his or her atheism in that, it can’t be helped.

A non-trinitarian who says that the Trinity is his or her God is making an unusual assertion.
 

Matthias

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I agree with you... if I could know that someone really wants you on the lake of fire... or at least wants you to fear the lake of fire in order to accept his/her views. I admit I fiercely fight those guys, because, in that respect or role or position, they are not serving the true Loving God.

But then here I split two things:
One is the Only and True God they seek to worship. The One they ask for forgiveness when they realize they have made something wrong.
A different and false god is whatever makes them say or do something evil.

Jesus called Peter "Satan" in one occasion. This doesn't mean that, for all his faults and misunderstandings, Peter didn't want to worship the only and true Yahweh.

Charlatans exist but I believe the vast majority of people who worship a deity do so sincerely; which is to say, most people aren’t charlatans.

The sincere (I’m not speaking now about the charlatans) are zealous. However, zeal without knowledge leads people astray. (Proverbs 19:2-3; Romans 10:2).
 

Matthias

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“… we do not believe that Jesus was crucified, hence there was no resurrection.

The Koran reveals: “That they said (in boast), ‘We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah’, but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not.” (Koran 4:157)

The above sura clearly dispels the belief in the crucifixion and the resurrection of Jesus. We believe Jesus is alive and that he never died, as Allah saved him from his would-be murderers.”


A Jesus who wasn’t crucified, never died, who wasn’t resurrected, is ”another Jesus”. The historical Jesus was crucified, died, and was bodily resurrected to life by Yahweh.

P.S.

”… searching the Scriptures each day to see whether these things were true.”

(Acts 7:11, TLV)

@Pancho Frijoles can you understand from this why I’m not persuaded that Yahweh of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are the same God? Can you understand from this why I believe Yahweh is the God of the Hebrew Bible and the God of the New Testament? Can you understand from this why I don’t believe and am not persuaded that Yahweh is the God of the Quran?
 
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Pancho Frijoles

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A non-trinitarian who says that the Trinity is his or her God is making an unusual assertion.

It would be an illogical assertion.
But here we may be confusing mental models with realities.
Trinity is a theological model to explain God. A model, by the way, that almost no Catholic or Lutheran resorts to in their daily life.
If I knew a Catholic or Lutheran who wants to submit her life to the demands of three different, competing wills, so that this person starts exhibiting neurotic behavior, then I would say that their God is not my God. But that's not the case.

True knowledge of God (or I should say, the kind of knowledge that is relevant for salvation) is not theological, but empiric. The Scriptures provide evidence for that.
 
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Matthias

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It would be an illogical assertion.

I agree that it would be an illogical assertion.

I’m not a trinitarian. I’m an ex-trinitarian. I don’t assert that my God is the Trinity. The trinitarian does not assert that my God is the Trinity. The trinitarian and I are in full agreement that my God and his God is not the same God.

But here we would be confusing mental models with realities.
Trinity is a theological model to explain God. A model, by the way, that almost no Catholic or Lutheran resorts to in their daily life.
If I knew a Catholic or Lutheran who wants to submit her life to the demands of three different, competing wills, so that this person starts exhibiting neurotic behavior, then I would say that their God is not my God.

True knowledge of God (or I should say, the kind of knowledge that is relevant for salvation) is not theological, but empiric. The Scriptures provide evidence for that.

True knowledge of God is revealed in and by Jesus of Nazareth. It is his theology, lived, that is bedrock for me.
 

Pancho Frijoles

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@Pancho Frijoles can you understand from this why I’m not persuaded that Yahweh of the Bible and Allah of the Quran are the same God? Can you understand from this why I believe Yahweh is the God of the Hebrew Bible and the God of the New Testament? Can you understand from this why I don’t believe and am not persuaded that Yahweh is the God of the Quran?
No, I can't, because you do bear with numerous discrepancies about Yahweh within the Bible. You can live with them, my friend.

You can live with a God who establishes circumcision as "perpetual covenant for generations" and then says it is optional. A God who makes Sodoma disappear under a rain of fire, but then spares Samaritans from such a rain after having rejected the Gospel. You can live with a God who says that salvation is through faith and not works, and then says that is not only by faith but by works. A God who says that blood shedding is essential for forgiveness of sins, and then says that blood shedding could not erase any sin. A God that forbids all work on Sabbath, and then explains that certain work is allowed. A God who declares that dead people can't think, and then say they can. A God who vivifies Jesus "in spirit", and then says He resurrected Jesus bodily. A God who says that Jesus doesn't know the day and time of his return, and then declares this will happen within the generation of the apostles, and makes Paul believe he will be alive by the time of such return. A God who cares to keep his name YHWH alive through generations across Scriptures, and then allows it to disappear in 2 centuries in the next block of Scriptures.

You can live with all these things and dozens more, believing that Yahweh is the same God presented throughout the Bible.

*******

Let's take two physicists who hold passionately different views of the origin and fate of the universe, or about what atoms are and how they behave.
Whatever their differences, they can't say: "The atoms I've made of are not the atoms you're made of" or "The universe I live in is not the same universe you live in"
Atoms are what they are, and the universe is what it is, regardless of the certainty, uncertainty, true or false conceptions these two physicists may have. None of them is placing himself on the tracks of a railway to defy a train approaching at full speed. Whatever their differences, they honor reality, and that translates into survival.
 
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Matthias

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But here we may be confusing mental models with realities.

That’s an important observation.

Trinity is a theological model to explain God. A model, by the way, that almost no Catholic or Lutheran resorts to in their daily life.

I wanted to come back to this. I had to think carefully about what I want to say without discussing here that which cannot be discussed here. Three things:

1. Jesus is my model.
2. Jesus models my theology in his living, in his teaching and in his preaching.
3. The model of Catholics and Lutherans, and your statement resorting to it in their daily life - without focusing on how many do and don’t - is part of the reason why I hold a broader view on conditional immortality than most who believe in conditional immortality do.
 

Pancho Frijoles

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I hold a broader view on conditional immortality than most who believe in conditional immortality do.
I haven't read your view on conditional immortality. I would be very interested, Matthias. If possible, please give me a link to the thread where you have discussed it.
 

Matthias

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No, I can't, because you do bear with numerous discrepancies about Yahweh within the Bible. You can live with them, my friend.

You can live with a God who establishes circumcision as "perpetual covenant for generations" and then says it is optional. A God who makes Sodoma disappear under a rain of fire, but then spares Samaritans from such a rain after having rejected the Gospel. You can live with a God who says that salvation is through faith and not works, and then says that is not only by faith but by works. A God who says that blood shedding is essential for forgiveness of sins, and then says that blood shedding could not erase any sin. A God that forbids all work on Sabbath, and then explains that certain work is allowed. A God who declares that dead people can't think, and then say they can. A God who vivifies Jesus "in spirit", and then says He resurrected it bodily. A God who says that Jesus doesn't know the day and time of his return, and then declares it will be within the generation of the apostles, and makes Paul believe he will be alive by the time of such return. A God who cares to keep his name, YHWH, alive through generations across Scriptures, and then allows it to disappear in 2 centuries in the next block of Scriptures.

You can live with all these things and dozens more, believing that Yahweh is the same God presented throughout the Bible.

Jesus points out that scripture cannot be broken (John 10:35). Yahweh, as even you have said and I have agreed, is the God of the Hebrew Bible and the New Testament.

When anyone comes to me and says something about God and Jesus, I search the scriptures to see whether or not what they are telling me is the truth.

The Jew comes to me and says that Jesus is not the Messiah raised up and sent by his God, I search the scriptures to see if what I’ve been told is the truth.

The Muslim comes to me and says that Jesus wasn’t crucified, didn’t die, wasn’t resurrected (because Allah didn’t allow it to happen), I search the scriptures to see if what I’ve been told is the truth.

The discrepancies I see between the Bible and the Quran, I see as evidence that Yahweh and Allah are not the same God. You don’t.

*******

Let's take two physicists who hold passionately different views of the origin and fate of the universe, or about what atoms are and how they behave.
Whatever their differences, they can't say: "The atoms I've made of are not the atoms you're made of" or "The universe I live in is not the same universe you live in"
Atoms are what they are, and the universe is what it is, regardless of the certainty, uncertainty, true or false conceptions these two physicists may have. None of them is placing himself on the tracks of a railway to defy a train approaching at full speed. Whatever their differences, they honor reality, and that translates into survival.
 

Matthias

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I haven't read your view on conditional immortality. I would be very interested, Matthias. If possible, please give me a link to the thread where you have discussed it.

The most recent thread where I’ve discussed it is in the thread titled “Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?”, located in the Christian Apologetics Forum. I’ve probably discussed it in other threads and othe forums here (probably even in the forms marked “Christians Only” before I changed my registration from Christian to Other Faith) but I don’t recall them off the top of my head.

In regard and in relation to your point that many don’t resort to their model in their daily lives, I believe this may be a factor that will play out in their favor in the second resurrection. This is commonly called “the wider hope”. Most who believe in conditional immortality don’t think it as wide as I do. They might be right.
 
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Pancho Frijoles

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The Jew comes to me and says that Jesus is not the Messiah raised up and sent by his God, I search the scriptures to see if what I’ve been told is the truth.
And then, after concluding from your search that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, and that your Jew friend was wrong, what do you end up thinking about the God that your Jew friend worships? Is it still the same God you worship?
 
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Pancho Frijoles

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The most recent thread where I’ve discussed it is in the thread titled “Are you sending your neighbors to Hell?”, located in the Christian Apologetics Forum. I’ve probably discussed it in other threads and othe forums here (probably even in the forms marked “Christians Only” before I changed my registration from Christian to Other Faith) but I don’t recall them off the top of my head.

In regard and in relation to your point that many don’t resort to their model in their daily lives, I believe this may be a factor that will play out in their favor in the second resurrection. This is commonly called “the wider hope”. Most who believe in conditional immortality don’t think it as wide as I do. They might be right.
Thank you very much.
I will put on hold a little bit our conversation here to be able to read carefully your point of view on that thread, my friend.
I am really interested. So bear with me a little.
 
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Matthias

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And then, after concluding after your search that Jesus is indeed the Messiah, and that your Jew friend was wrong, what do you end up thinking about the God that your Jew friend worships? Is it still the same God you worship?

I end up thinking the same thing that Jesus, himself a Jew, thinks about it (John 8:42-47).

Yahweh is the God of the believing Jew, not of the unbelieving Jew.
 
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Cassandra

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there is a lot more to Sodom's story.
A covenant is two sided. If one side defaults, the covenant is broken. I don't understand why folks dont get that.
Jesus, when He said This generation shall not pass away, He was referring to the generation that is present in the last times.
Yahweh has a son, Allah does not.
Jesus came to teach us and to die for us, not to be whisked away by God. That's super silly. He could've taken off on His own.
As for Paul believing, well I guess all believe He will come in their lifetime. He also knew what signs to look for.
 

Pancho Frijoles

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I think I found the paragraph that summarizes your view, @Matthias.
Let me know if it is fair to say that this one does it...

"I don’t hold to eternal conscious torment for anyone, nor do I hold that all who will be bodily resurrected in the second resurrection and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. I believe that there is a wideness of God’s mercy, but not so wide that it includes every human person who has ever lived. The incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed. Others (ex. people who lived their lives for whatever length of time that they did without perhaps ever having even heard about Jesus) might not be judged incorrigible. Jesus will review what they did and didn’t do and judge righteously. In other words, I don’t believe that the second resurrection is nothing but a show trial and a burning party."
 

Matthias

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I think I found the paragraph that summarizes your view, @Matthias.
Let me know if it is fair to say that this one does it...

"I don’t hold to eternal conscious torment for anyone, nor do I hold that all who will be bodily resurrected in the second resurrection and judged will be cast into the lake of fire. I believe that there is a wideness of God’s mercy, but not so wide that it includes every human person who has ever lived. The incorrigibly wicked will be destroyed. Others (ex. people who lived their lives for whatever length of time that they did without perhaps ever having even heard about Jesus) might not be judged incorrigible. Jesus will review what they did and didn’t do and judge righteously. In other words, I don’t believe that the second resurrection is nothing but a show trial and a burning party."

Yes, that’s it. We can speak further about it in this thread, if you’d like to and have questions or comments about it.
 

Pancho Frijoles

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I end up thinking the same thing that Jesus, himself a Jew, thinks about it (John 8:42-47).

Yahweh is the God of the believing Jew, not of the unbelieving Jew.

The text you are quoting, my friend, contains the words of Jesus against wicked Jews. Jews who were trying to kill him. Jews who didn't do the deeds of Abraham.
Those words were not pronounced against righteous Jews who still hadn't come to conclude anything about His nature, mission, etc. In the context of the Gospel, rejecting Jesus is to reject his Message of repentance, remain deliberately doing evil things. Please look: "The Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

I invite you to read the whole passage you have referred us to from John 8. I have made a concise transcription here and highlighted in green the words that indicate who were those Jews Jesus was accusing of not being from God.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak of the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, ...this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.
They said to Him, “...we have one Father: God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, ... The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
... Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and left the temple grounds.
In conclusion, if you are blessed with having a dentist who happens to be a Jew, and lives as Christ lived, bearing the fruits that come from the spirit, you would have absolutely NO GROUND to use this passage to say that he/she is worshiping other God than the God Christ adored.

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Matthias

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The text you are quoting, my friend, contains the words of Jesus against wicked Jews. Jews who were trying to kill him. Jews who didn't do the deeds of Abraham.
Those words were not pronounced against righteous Jews who still hadn't come to conclude anything about His nature, mission, etc. In the context of the Gospel, rejecting Jesus is to reject his Message of repentance, remain deliberately doing evil things. Please look: "The Light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the Light; for their deeds were evil." (John 3:19)

I invite you to read the whole passage you have referred us to from John 8. I have made a concise transcription here and highlighted in green the words that indicate who were those Jews Jesus was accusing of not being from God.

I know that you are Abraham’s descendants; yet you are seeking to kill Me, because My word has no place in you. I speak of the things which I have seen with My Father; therefore you also do the things which you heard from your father.”
They answered and said to Him, “Abraham is our father.”
Jesus *said to them, “If you are Abraham’s children, do the deeds of Abraham. But as it is, you are seeking to kill Me, ...this Abraham did not do. You are doing the deeds of your father.
They said to Him, “...we have one Father: God.”
Jesus said to them, “If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I came forth from God and am here; for I have not even come on My own, but He sent Me. Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot listen to My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, ... The one who is of God hears the words of God; for this reason you do not hear them, because you are not of God.”
... Therefore they picked up stones to throw at Him, but Jesus hid Himself and left the temple grounds.
In conclusion, if you are blessed with having a dentist who happens to be a Jew, and lives as Christ lived, bearing the fruits that come from the spirit, you would have absolutely NO GROUND to use this passage to say that he/she is worshiping other God than the God Christ adored.

They were wicked because they didn’t believe Jesus and the one true God (i.e. Yahweh) who sent him.

The same would be true of an excellent Jewish dentist who doesn’t believe Jesus and his God.