Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Pancho Frijoles]

@Pancho Frijoles what do you think about Paul’s comment in 2 Corinthians 11:4?

Paul is afraid of his congregation accepting a false Jesus that leads them to evil, a false spirit that leads them to evil, or a false Gospel that leads them to evil.

The true Gospel is about repentance. A false Gospel is about indulgence in sin.
The true spirit is that of peace, joy, love, self-control, etc. The false spirit is about the flesh ad the fruits of the flesh.
The true Jesus heals, saves, restores, connects. The false Jesus damages, destroys, condemns, separates.

This warning from Paul makes a striking contrast between the true spirit and a different spirit: (Galatians 5:16-25)

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

What is the additional one?

The Most Glorious.

Now I will leave our conversation for today, my friend.
May God give you a very pleasant night.

 

[Matthias]

Paul is afraid of his congregation accepting a false Jesus that leads them to evil, a false spirit that leads them to evil, or a false Gospel that leads them to evil.

The true Gospel is about repentance. A false Gospel is about indulgence in sin.
The true spirit is that of peace, joy, love, self-control, etc. The false spirit is about the flesh ad the fruits of the flesh.
The true Jesus heals, saves, restores, connects. The false Jesus damages, destroys, condemns, separates.

This warning from Paul makes a striking contrast between the true spirit and a different spirit: (Galatians 5:16-25)

So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.

19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit.

As there is such a thing as “another Jesus,” “another gospel,” “another spirit,“ etc. that is false, there is also such a thing as the danger of accepting a false god, an idol, and treating it as if it, not Yahweh, is the true God.

God. You mentioned that we both speak about “God“ without asking one another who it is that we’re talking about, respectively.

God. The Bible is explicit in identifying who it is speaking about. Jesus himself is explicit in who he is speaking about when he speaks about God. There is not a shadow of doubt who the God of Israel is for those who lived in biblical times. He is distinguished from the gods of other religions. The god of the Philistines, for example, is not the God of Israel.

It is the God of Israel alone who is the Messiah’s own God and Father, Yahweh.

It is the God of Israel alone whom Jesus says is his God and the God of his disciples, his Father and the Father of his disciples.

God. From the Bible’s perspective -> the God of Israel; Yahweh.

The Biblical perspective -> Yahweh vs. idols (the false gods of the nations). That’s the only choice there is in the Bible. That’s something that I’m unable to compromise on.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Hi, @Matthias

Good morning/afternoon, my friend.
Thanks for your last post.

The God of Israel that you are mentioning, existed long before Israel emerged as a nation.
This God is eternal, and creator of all men.
This is, for example, the God of Noah.
Noah could not have referred to God as "God of Israel", because Israel didn't even exist, right?
Still, you believe that Noah's God, and Moses' God, are the same. Am I correct?

We know very little about what Noah thought of God. Very, very little indeed.
How did the authors of the Torah come to conclude that Noah's God was the same God of Israel? How do you and I come to accept this?

 

[Jay Ross]

From my reading of extra biblically related material and having a chronological understanding of how the patriarchs of Genesis are related, I have come to understand that Noah had a great influence over Abraham's world view and how the God that Noah worshipped and that before God called Abraham that Abraham already had established his own relationship with the God that Noah worshiped during the 59 years that their lives overlapped. Abraham had learnt from Noah how to also walk with this same God.

Abraham, spent time teaching his families about being in relationship with God and one of this family lines, some 600 years after Abraham had sent them away from living in close proximity to Isaac, and who was also known as Reuel, which means, "A friend of God," was waiting for Moses to appear and it was Jethro who spent 40 years instructing Moses about the God that Abraham had taught to the children of his third family of which Jethro was a descendant.

Now Jacob had also taught his sons about the God of his grandfather, Abraham, and this was passed down through Jacob's descendants such that they had an understanding of the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

There are enough fragments of the early story of the descendants of Jacob to show that the God that Noah worship is also the God that the nation of Israel was asked to also worship at My Sinai when God began to establish a covenant relationship them.

Shalom

 

[Matthias]

Hi, @Matthias

Good morning/afternoon, my friend.
Thanks for your last post.

The God of Israel that you are mentioning, existed long before Israel emerged as a nation.
This God is eternal, and creator of all men.
This is, for example, the God of Noah.
Noah could not have referred to God as "God of Israel", because Israel didn't even exist, right?
Still, you believe that Noah's God, and Moses' God, are the same. Am I correct?

We know very little about what Noah thought of God. Very, very little indeed.
How did the authors of the Torah come to conclude that Noah's God was the same God of Israel? How do you and I come to accept this?

The Bible asserts that there is no God besides the God of Israel. We know that the God of Israel is Yahweh. That’s how I know that the God of Noah is the God of Israel, Yahweh.

I don’t have any problem accepting it. Putting myself in your shoes, I’m not sure how you would be able to accept it without converting to Judaism or Christianity.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The Bible asserts that there is no God besides the God of Israel. We know that the God of Israel is Yahweh. That’s how I know that the God of Noah is the God of Israel, Yahweh.

I don’t have any problem accepting it. Putting myself in your shoes, I’m not sure how you would be able to accept it without converting to Judaism or Christianity.

Then, if the Bible asserts that there is no God besides the God of Israel, a person who believes like Noah believed (ie, in a single Almighty, Merciful God who also is a Judge of our behavior, like in his days), believes necessarily in the God of Israel.
How we know it? Because there is no other one God.

I worship the God of Noah. Therefore, I worship the God of Israel.
How can I be sure? Because there is no other God who is One, Almighty, All Merciful, Judge, Eternal, Creator of everything, Sustainer of our lives. There is no other who is the Supreme Reality, in which we exist. There is no other who can be called "Love".

My theology may not be your theology.
But my God is your God.

I feel right now like pronouncing a short prayer, my friend. Bear with me.

I thank you, Oh my God, for You have created Matthias and me, as leaves of the same tree, and roses of the same garden.
We are both submerged in the ocean of Your grace.
Keep us detached from anything except Your Love.
Keep us blind to any light except your Light.
Keep us deaf to any sound except your Voice.
You are the Only One, the Clement, the Munificent, the Self-Subsisting, He who lives forever.
Amen.

 

[Matthias]

Then, if the Bible asserts that there is no God besides the God of Israel, a person who believes like Noah believed (ie, in a single Almighty, Merciful God who also is a Judge of our behavior, like in his days), believes necessarily in the God of Israel.
How we know it? Because there is no other one God.

I worship the God of Noah. Therefore, I worship the God of Israel.
How can I be sure? Because there is no other God who is One, Almighty, All Merciful, Judge, Eternal, Creator of everything, Sustainer of our lives. There is no other who is the Supreme Reality, in which we exist. There is no other who can be called "Love".

My theology may not be your theology.
But my God is your God.

I feel right now like pronouncing a short prayer, my friend. Bear with me.

I thank you, Oh my God, for You have created Matthias and me, as leaves of the same tree, and roses of the same garden.
We are both submerged in the ocean of Your grace.
Keep us detached from anything except Your Love.
Keep us blind to any light except your Light.
Keep us deaf to any sound except your Voice.
You are the Only One, the Clement, the Munificent, the Self-Subsisting, He who lives forever.
Amen.

The trinitarians know that their God isn’t my God.

Have you told the trinitarians that your God is their God? If you have, what did they say?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

The trinitarians know that their God isn’t my God.

Have you told the trinitarians that your God is their God? If you have, what did they say?

Most of them agreed.
Few people ( say, 25%) fiercely disagreed, mainly Fundamentalist Evangelicals with fanatic attitudes….
All Catholics, except by one, also agreed with me.

My Calvinist Uruguayan friend (a preacher older than 80, with a deep knowledge of the Bible) defended firmly his conviction that Allah was the same God of Protestants. He stood by me facing the hate of those angry fanatics, despite our clear disagreememts in other aspects of our beliefs. We are still good friends. I’d like to go to Uruguay and meet him in person…

 

[Matthias]

Most of them agreed.
Few people ( say, 25%) fiercely disagreed, mainly Fundamentalist Evangelicals with fanatic attitudes….
All Catholics, except by one, also agreed with me.

My Calvinist Uruguayan friend (a preacher older than 80, with a deep knowledge of the Bible) defended firmly his conviction that Allah was the same God of Protestants. He stood by me facing the hate of those angry fanatics, despite our clear disagreememts in other aspects of our beliefs. We are still good friends. I’d like to go to Uruguay and meet him in person…

That’s interesting.

The majority of them believe your non-trinitarian God is their trinitarian God and my non-trinitarian God isn’t their God.

You believe your non-trinitarian God and their trinitarian God is my non-trinitarian God but they don’t.

What about the Hindus? Have you ever told them that your non-trinitarian God / the trinitarian God is their gods? If you have, what did they say?

 

[Matthias]

“Ecumenism, from the Greek word ‘oikoumene,’ meaning ‘the whole inhabited world,’ is the promotion of cooperation and unity among Christians.”

Ecumenical

Ecumenism, from the Greek word “oikoumene,” meaning “the whole inhabited world,” is the promotion of cooperation and unity among Christians. Jesus Ch...

www.usccb.org

The Roman Catholic Church doesn’t recognize me, nor does it acknowledge that I‘m a Christian. I don’t have any problem with that but I self-identify as Christian (primitive / Ante-Nicene). For anyone who might be wondering, I recognize and acknowledge that Roman Catholics (and Protestants) fall within the historical Christian tradition and refer to them as Christians.

A paradox?

 

[Matthias]

I was thinking about my experience with Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I’ve visited the synagogue, but the Jews did not consider me to be a Jew. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited the Roman Catholic Church, but the Catholics did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited various Protestant Churches, but the Protestants did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited non-denominational Churches, but the Christians did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited the mosque, but the Muslims did not consider me to be a Muslim. I was welcome there, as a guest.

Theologically speaking, I’m a resident alien in the land.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

I was thinking about my experience with Jews, Christians and Muslims.

I’ve visited the synagogue, but the Jews did not consider me to be a Jew. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited the Roman Catholic Church, but the Catholics did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited various Protestant Churches, but the Protestants did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited non-denominational Churches, but the Christians did not consider me to be a Christian. I was welcome there, as a guest.

I’ve visited the mosque, but the Muslims did not consider me to be a Muslim. I was welcome there, as a guest.

Theologically speaking, I’m a resident alien in the land.

You can’t imagine how this post of you resonates with me.
I’m grateful for the opportunity to talk to you. I mean it, Matthias.

Yes, theologically speaking, you are a resident alien in the land.

 

[Matthias]

Then, if the Bible asserts that there is no God besides the God of Israel, a person who believes like Noah believed (ie, in a single Almighty, Merciful God who also is a Judge of our behavior, like in his days), believes necessarily in the God of Israel.
How we know it? Because there is no other one God.

I worship the God of Noah. Therefore, I worship the God of Israel.
How can I be sure? Because there is no other God who is One, Almighty, All Merciful, Judge, Eternal, Creator of everything, Sustainer of our lives. There is no other who is the Supreme Reality, in which we exist. There is no other who can be called "Love".

My theology may not be your theology.
But my God is your God.

I feel right now like pronouncing a short prayer, my friend. Bear with me.

I thank you, Oh my God, for You have created Matthias and me, as leaves of the same tree, and roses of the same garden.
We are both submerged in the ocean of Your grace.
Keep us detached from anything except Your Love.
Keep us blind to any light except your Light.
Keep us deaf to any sound except your Voice.
You are the Only One, the Clement, the Munificent, the Self-Subsisting, He who lives forever.
Amen.

If Noah isn’t Yahweh then Noah isn’t the God of Israel.

If Jesus isn’t Yahweh then Jesus isn’t the God of Israel.

Psalm 110:1 -> “Yahweh [the God of Israel] says to my lord …”

P.S.

In post #14 you stated that you are able to see that the one seated beside Yahweh in the prophecy is not himself Yahweh. Do you see in the New Testament that the unnamed person in Psalm 110:1 is identified by name, Jesus?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That’s interesting.

The majority of them believe your non-trinitarian God is their trinitarian God and my non-trinitarian God isn’t their God.

You believe your non-trinitarian God and their trinitarian God is my non-trinitarian God but they don’t.

What about the Hindus? Have you ever told them that your non-trinitarian God / the trinitarian God is their gods? If you have, what did they say?

I haven’t asked this to any Hinduist person, Matthias.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

In post #14 you stated that you are able to see that the one seated beside Yahweh in the prophecy is not himself Yahweh. Do you see in the New Testament that the unnamed person in Psalm 110:1 is identified by name, Jesus?

Yes, I do.

 

[Matthias]

I haven’t asked this to any Hinduist person, Matthias.

Would you ever?

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I do.

If Noah and Jesus aren’t Yahweh then Noah and Jesus aren’t the God of Israel.

 

[Matthias]

Evangelism.

Since you (and the majority of Roman Catholics you’ve encountered) believe all paths lead to the same God, do you think Christians should cease trying to convert people from other religions to Christianity Pancho Frijoles?

My Muslim friend / co-worker often urged me to convert to Islam. Do you think Muslims should cease trying to convert people from other religions to Islam?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Would you ever?

Sure, it would be very interesting to learn what a common Hinduist person believes in his heart of hearts.
But remember: I would not frame that question from a theological perspective, but from a personal one.