Genesis 14 and Psalm 110

[Matthias]

Yes, I am telling you that... and I can tell you that such a disconnection has happened and continues to happen in millions of minds.
Such disconnection does not only happen on the doctrine we cannot discuss here, but on several other doctrines.

Thanks. I‘m trying to remember where I read it (I posed the question because you reminded me of it) but can’t place it at the moment. (I looked at a source where I thought it was but didn’t find it there.) A Roman Catholic clergyman was lamenting that this is the case with many Roman Catholics. (Since I’m unable to document it at the moment we’ll just have to treat it as hearsay. I’ll post it if I recall where I read it.) Your comment confirms for me what the Roman Catholic clergyman (allegedly, I hate that) said.

The importance of sound doctrine?

In scripture, immense. In the church? My purpose isn’t to single out the Roman Catholic church but your testimony about it is what it is, and the same can be said about many Protestant churches as well.

When I speak with Christians I often ask them this question: Is Jesus of Nazareth a human person? The answer I receive does not, about 80% of the time, align with the teaching of their stated doctrine. Every person ultimately has to take responsibility for what he or she believes but I place the lion’s share of the blame for this disconnect on the clergy.

 

[Matthias]

Such disconnection does not only happen on the doctrine we cannot discuss here, but on several other doctrines.

1. Would you say that it also happens in non-Christian religions?

2. Do you think Jesus might take the disconnect (one factor among many factors?) into account when he judges people in the great white throne judgement?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

It sounds like you have a good grasp on the concept of the program.

Here is the application I would make in our conversation: Three deities, side-by-side, all claiming to be Yahweh.

What is your name #1? My name is Yahweh. What is your name #2? My name is Yahweh. What is your name #3? My name is Yahweh.

One of them really is Yahweh; two of them are imposters.

Q. How would we identify which of the three really is Yahweh?

A. By asking them questions about Yahweh and comparing there answers with what the Bible says about Yahweh.

For example:

Question #1. Do you have a spouse?

Question #2. Did you beget a Son?

Question #3. Do you alone inherently possess immortality?

I’m sure that we could think of a great many questions that we could ask the three deities in order to determine who is true and who is false.

What if we ask "Did you create heaven and earth in 6 literal days?"
If the answer is "Yes", some could object that is not Yahveh.
If the answer is "No, I it took me billions of years", some could object that is not Yahweh.

So, the validity of the answers would depend on how we interpret what has been said about Yahweh in the books we regard as inspired... and for some people, what nature says about how Yahweh created it, as per scientific inquiry.

If we give the inquirers enough time to make an unlimited number of questions, the result we will get is that, eventually, all inquirers will admit, in big puzzlement: "The three of them are impostors. None of them answered all my questions the way YHWH would have responded".

 

[Matthias]

What if we ask "Did you create heaven and earth in 6 literal days?"
If the answer is "Yes", some could object that is not Yahveh.
If the answer is "No, I it took me billions of years", some could object that is not Yahweh.

So, the validity of the answers would depend on how we interpret what has been said about Yahweh in the books we regard as inspired... and for some people, what nature says about how Yahweh created it, as per scientific inquiry.

If we take the excercise to the extreme including all people on Earth who can make an unlimited number of questions, the result we will get is that, eventually, all inquirers will admit: "The three of them are impostors. None of them answered all my questions as YHWH would have responded".

We would have to choose our questions carefully. There must be no ambiguity in them that would allow the false to pass itself off as true.

We must also keep in find that not only are we trying to detect obviously wrong answers but answers which are similar but not the same. Differences root out the imposters.

Question for the three: Do you have any other sacred books besides the Bible?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

We would have to choose our questions carefully. There must be no ambiguity in them that would allow the false to pass itself off as true.

I agree... and that will be tricky.
For example, to the question "Did you beget a Son?" here are potential answers

• "Yes, I did"
• "Well, in some way I did"
• "Aren't you my son? Aren't your brothers my children? Yes, I've begotten billions of sons and daughters"
• "Of course not... what you're taking about? I am not a man. I don't have a spouse. I don't reproduce."

We must also keep in find that not only are we trying to detect obviously wrong answers but answers which are similar but not the same.

Things are becoming even more difficult!
That demands that our knowledge of Yahweh is very, very exact. Not contaminated from any ideology, misunderstanding, manipulated text, personal wishes and biases, things we were taught at home or at the church, etc.

Question for the three: Do you have any other sacred books besides the Bible?

Some potential answers, that would lead different people to different views of whether they are speaking with an impostor or the true YHWH.

• No
• Not beside the Bible... but within the Bible there are some parts that were not really inspired by me
• Yes, but only those in the Bible are known to men. Don't worry about the others.
• Yes, and they include A, B, C which are known to men
• The Bible? Which Bible you're talking about: the Ethiopian, the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hebrew...?

 

[Matthias]

I agree... and that will be tricky.
For example, to the question "Did you beget a Son?" here are potential answers

• "Yes, I did"
• "Well, in some way I did"
• "Aren't you my son? Aren't your brothers my children? Yes, I've begotten billions of sons and daughters"
• "Of course not... what you're taking about? I am not a man. I don't have a spouse. I don't reproduce."

Things are becoming even more difficult!
That demands that our knowledge of Yahweh is very, very exact. Not contaminated from any ideology, misunderstanding, manipulated text, personal wishes and biases, things we were taught at home or at the church, etc.


Some potential answers, that would lead different people to different views of whether they are speaking with an impostor or the true YHWH.

• No
• Not beside the Bible... but within the Bible there are some parts that were not really inspired by me
• Yes, but only those in the Bible are known to men. Don't worry about the others.
• Yes, and they include A, B, C which are known to men
• The Bible? Which Bible you're talking about: the Ethiopian, the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hebrew...?

If there is such a thing as an imposter deity, we’ll eventually find out in our process.

Have we established that there is such a thing as an imposter deity? I thought we had but perhaps we haven’t.

If we have, how did you come to that conclusion?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Have we established that there is such a thing as an imposter deity? I thought we had but perhaps we haven’t.

No, we have not and that's crucial.

How could a deity prove that they are all powerful and eternal, for example?
If a candidate deity presented such a proof, then we will have to conclude that such deity cannot be false, as there is only One Eternal, Almighty God.

In that sense, false deities do not exist. That's why they are false.

If the candidate deity could not prove that it is All powerful, and eternal, what would be the relevance of giving us right answers about other minor biblical doctrines? By giving us an answer we agree with, the impostor would only show that there is a coincidence between his beliefs and our beliefs... but that wouldn't make him God.

 

[Matthias]

No, we have not and that's crucial.

That is crucial.

How could a deity prove that they are all powerful and eternal, for example?
If there was such a proof, then we will have to conclude that such deity cannot be false, as there is only One Eternal, Almighty God.

In that sense, false deities do not exist. That's why they are false.

If the deity cannot prove that it is All powerful, and eternal, what is the relevance of giving us right answers about other minor biblical doctrines? By giving us an answer we agree with he would only prove there is a coincidence between his beliefs and our beliefs... but that wouldn't make him God.

Moloch* (to use an illustration with deity spoken about in the Bible; we could use other deities from other faith traditions not spoken about in the Bible who do the same) commands child sacrifice. Yahweh condemns the practice.

The deitie(s) which require child sacrifice aren’t Yahweh.

A deity which commands child sacrifice and claim to be Yahweh is an imposter.

Are we able to find agreement in that?

* Moloch, The Ancient Pagan God Of Child Sacrifice That Demanded Its Offerings Be Burned Alive

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

If there is such a thing as an imposter deity, we’ll eventually find out in our process.

I believe we are not smart enough as to create the perfect quiz to tell the impostor from the true Deity.
The true God has to be sought and experienced in some way.
We have to err from time to time in this quest.... as these errors will help us to be able to recognize our limited, weak condition, and make us willing to be guided by His Light.

Remember the Samaritan woman. How did she come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Just because He knew about her past husbands? Fortune-tellers across centuries have deceived millions guessing things or predicting things.
I think it was something more. She must have felt something, realized something, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
In the following days, she must have experienced a transformation in her life. We have both agreed, my friend, that such an outcome cannot be the result of a deceiver.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

That is crucial.



Moloch (to use an illustration with deity spoken about in the Bible; we could use other deities from other faith traditions not spoken about in the Bible who do the same) commands child sacrifice. Yahweh condemns the practice.

The deitie(s) which require child sacrifice aren’t Yahweh.

A deity which commands child sacrifice and claim to be Yahweh is an imposter.

Are we able to find agreement in that?

Yes, totally.
But then, a Moloch-worshiper would say that Yahveh is a false deity, because a true deity should demand child sacrifices, as stated by the Moloch's priests... or perhaps Moloch-inspired sacred texts.
So, the validity of an answer such as "I abhor human sacrifices" depends on what the inquirer believes the answer of a true deity should be.

This is leading us to the conclusion that the true God must be good, lead us to good things, change our character to do what is good.
Sacrificing a child is not good. At least, we cannot uphold this as being good. Therefore, Moloch cannot be God.

 

[Matthias]

I believe we are not smart enough as to create the perfect quiz to tell the impostor from the true Deity.
The true God has to be sought and experienced in some way.
We have to err from time to time in this quest.... as these errors will help us to be able to recognize our limited, weak condition, and make us willing to be guided by His Light.

Remember the Samaritan woman. How did she come to believe that Jesus was the Messiah?
Just because He knew about her past husbands? Fortune-tellers across centuries have deceived millions guessing things or predicting things.
I think it was something more. She must have felt something, realized something, under the influence of the Holy Spirit.
In the following days, she must have experienced a transformation in her life. We have both agreed, my friend, that such an outcome cannot be the result of a deceiver.

Gods talk. What they have to say is recorded in sacred books.

We can compare and contrast what they say. When they say contradictory things they aren’t the same god.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, totally.

Then together we have established that there is such a thing as an imposter deity, haven’t we? Those who worship Moloch are worshiping demons, not Yahweh.

But then, a Moloch-worshiper would say that Yahveh is a false deity, because a true deity should demand child sacrifices, as stated by the Moloch's priests... or perhaps Moloch-inspired sacred texts.

A worshiper of any deity and / or the priests of that deity can make the assertion. We have to make a decision on whether to accept and believe it or reject and not believe it.

So, the validity of an answer such as "I abhor human sacrifices" depends on what the inquirer believes the answer of a true deity should be.

You and I have said that Yahweh is the true deity. The answer from Moloch and his followers doesn’t align with what Yahweh says. Moloch isn’t Yahweh. He is but one example of a false God.

This is leading us to the conclusion that the true God must be good, lead us to good things, change our character to do what is good.

Yes. Any God who doesn’t meet that criteria is easily dismissed as a false God.

Sacrificing a child is not good. At least, we cannot uphold this as being good. Therefore, Moloch cannot be God.

The panelists in our hypothetical game show have identified him as an imposter. #1 is Moloch, not Yahweh.

Now we are down to #2 and #3. Each holding fast that he is Yahweh. One is, one isn’t.

 

[Matthias]

“My sheep hear my voice, and I know them and they follow me.”

(John 10:27)

The shepherd of Yahweh speaks the words of Yahweh, not the words of Moloch (or other false gods).

Jesus of Nazareth leads us to Yahweh alone, not to Moloch (or to any other deity.)

I’d like to take us to Athens next in our conversation @Pancho Frijoles; Paul at the Areopagus (Acts 17:18-34).

Please feel free to continue commenting, if you would like to, on our discussion about Moloch. We can revisit it any time. One or both of us might at some point have something further we’d like to add to it.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Gods talk. What they have to say is recorded in sacred books.

We can compare and contrast what they say. When they say contradictory things they aren’t the same god.

I have two comments here, my friend.

GODS TALK.

God doesn't write directly the sacred texts.
Humans write the sacred texts and say things about God.
I believe, by faith, that God moved them, or inspired them, to say those things.
What does "inspiration" mean? I'm not sure, but it doesn't mean "dictation" to me.

CONTRADICTORY

"Contradictory" to me, means "opposite" or "contrary"... But not "different".
I believe that the sacred texts say different things to different audiences at different times.

There would be no point, for example, in comparing the Tanakh with the New Testament and the Quran, if we expected to find identical laws, rituals, analogies, language, emphasis, organization of the body of believers, specific concerns, etc. We assume we will see differences in all those things. Different approaches to a concept ( a secondary concept) can be so customized to a given context, that sometimes they may look like a different doctrine. For example, if we were to rely on the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, our view on the state of the soul after death would be very different than if we rely on the story of Lazarus and the rich. Do you agree?

There is one very well known verse in which Paul warns the believers of someone bringing a "different Gospel"... but what is a different Gospel?
Weren't Paul teachings a "different Gospel" to the ears of those wanting to keep the observance of the Law of Moses?
Paul was a Jew, preached to many Jews, and still, he was teaching that keeping the Law of Moses was optional for those converted to Christ.

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

A worshiper of any deity and / or the priests of that deity can make the assertion. We have to make a decision on whether to accept and believe it or reject and not believe it.

You've made a statement that I consider key.
In the end, it is a matter of choice.

When a smart atheist asks a group of believers why they believe in God, what I see is that they start giving all kind of reasons to sound as logical as possible.
When I am asked, I answer that I have chosen to believe in God. While I don't find my belief incompatible with reason and science, I fully recognize that it is not derived from reason and science. It's a choice.

So, as we continue this conversation, Matthias, we will feel we are walking the same path to some distance, because we both value reason and the Bible.
But at some point in our conversation, we will be agreeing to disagree, not because we have perversely closed our minds to reason or to the Holy Spirit, but because we start choosing to believe differently. Then, losing sight from each other, we may wrongly think that one of us has been led astray and lost. What we have done, instead, is to focus on our feet (or hands, if we find the road misty and start reaching out). If we focus on the manner of our walking, we lose sight of our neighbor. When we focus on God, we realize he is still walking with us.

There is only One Way to the Father. But "The Way" does not refer to a comprehensive set of 945 doctrines. The Way is Christ, the Christ living in us, the way Christ lived and asked us to live.
The first Christians used to call their religion "The Way", as can be read in the book of Acts.
Christians lived in a certain way. They had abandoned their old ways, and embraced a new way. It is my wish that we can find us walking the same Way.

 

[Matthias]

I have two comments here, my friend.

GODS TALK.

God doesn't write directly the sacred texts.
Humans write the sacred texts and say things about God.
I believe, by faith, that God moved them, or inspired them, to say those things.
What does "inspiration" mean? I'm not sure, but it doesn't mean "dictation" to me.

Let’s go back to Psalm 110:1. “Yahweh says to my lord, ...”

The author of the Psalm communicated not his own message but the message he received from Yahweh. We could ask, did Yahweh say it or not? I see no reason to answer that he didn’t. The writer faithfully wrote down the message he received from Yahweh.

The message didn’t come from Moloch. The message came from the one true God (and Jesus himself tells us who this one true God is.)

Do the sacred writings of other faiths contain this message? Do they contain anything which would contradict this message?

Shifting quickly now to Islam. Moses too received a message from Yahweh. (You have told me that you believe Yahweh is Allah.) The message I’m referring to is Yahweh’s (Allah’s?) promise to raise up from among the people a prophet like Moses (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18). The Apostles identify that promised prophet as Jesus of Nazareth; the Quran identifies that promised prophet as Muhammad.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Yahweh is speaking prophetically about Jesus.

There is no doubt whatsoever that Allah is speaking prophetically about Muhammad.

Jesus isn’t Muhammad. The Bible isn’t the Quran. Yahweh isn’t Allah.

CONTRADICTORY

"Contradictory" to me, means "opposite" or "contrary"... But not "different".
I believe that the sacred texts say different things to different audiences at different times.

To me, “opposite” and / or “contrary” are propositions which are different.

There would be no point, for example, in comparing the Tanakh with the New Testament and the Quran, if we expected to find identical laws, rituals, analogies, language, emphasis, organization of the body of believers, specific concerns, etc. We assume we will see differences in all those things. Different approaches to a concept ( a secondary concept) can be so customized to a given context, that sometimes they may look like a different doctrine. For example, if we were to rely on the books of Proverbs and Ecclesiastes, our view on the state of the soul after death would be very different than if we rely on the story of Lazarus and the rich. Do you agree?

No, I don’t agree.

There is one very well known verse in which Paul warns the believers of someone bringing a "different Gospel"... but what is a different Gospel?
Weren't Paul teachings a "different Gospel" to the ears of those wanting to keep the observance of the Law of Moses?
Paul was a Jew, preached to many Jews, and still, he was teaching that keeping the Law of Moses was optional for those converted to Christ.

The gospel is defined by Jesus. It was preached by Jesus and by all of the Apostles. Anything presented as the gospel which isn’t the gospel that they preached is “another gospel”.

Jesus is the standard.

 

[Matthias]

You've made a statement that I consider key.
In the end, it is a matter of choice.

“Choose” -> Joshua comes quickly to mind (Joshua 24:15).

When a smart atheist asks a group of believers why they believe in God, what I see is that they start giving all kind of reasons to sound as logical as possible.
When I am asked, I answer that I have chosen to believe in God. While I don't find my belief incompatible with reason and science, I fully recognize that it is not derived from reason and science. It's a choice.

On that we‘re able to agree.

So, as we continue this conversation, Matthias, we will feel we are walking the same path to some distance, because we both value reason and the Bible.

You walk paths that I don’t. There is no path for me beyond, or in addition to, the path that Jesus and the Apostles walk.

But at some point in our conversation, we will be agreeing to disagree, not because we have perversely closed our minds to reason or to the Holy Spirit, but because we start choosing to believe differently.

You’ve chosen to believe that there are many paths leading to God. (The position of your Baha’i faith.) I’ve chosen to believe that there is only one path leading to God. (The position of my Christian faith.)

Then, losing sight from each other, we may wrongly think that one of us has been led astray and lost. What we have done, instead, is to focus on our feet (or hands, if we find the road misty and start reaching out). If we focus on the manner of our walking, we lose sight of our neighbor. When we focus on God, we realize he is still walking with us.

How am I to embrace, endorse and practice a faith which the Messiah himself didn’t?

There is only One Way to the Father. But "The Way" does not refer to a comprehensive set of 945 doctrines. The Way is Christ, the Christ living in us, the way Christ lived and asked us to live.
The first Christians used to call their religion "The Way", as can be read in the book of Acts.
Christians lived in a certain way. They had abandoned their old ways, and embraced a new way. It is my wish that we can find us walking the same Way.

Agreed, as far as it goes. But it goes further than that. The first Christians also held very specific doctrines. It isn’t just about how they lived; it’s also about what they believed.

What they believed is expressed in what they taught and in how they lived.

 

[Matthias]

Continuing on the matter of choosing @Pancho Frijoles.

“But if it is bad in your eyes to serve Yahweh, choose for yourselves today whom you want to serve, whether it is the gods that your ancestors served beyond the river, or the gods of the Amorites in whose land you are living; but as for me and my household, we will serve Yahweh.”

(Joshua 24:15, LEB)

Joshua, the assistant and successor of Moses, commanded the Israelites to choose. The choice they were given is between Yahweh and deities who aren’t Yahweh. In the Bible the choice we are offered is always between Yahweh or idols.

Jesus choosing idols is a non sequitur.

Jesus, I’ve asserted, is the standard. He is for me, he is for others but he is not for everyone.

My enemies may deny that he is the standard for me - let them. I doubt that anyone would challenge that he is the standard for others. Would anyone challenge that he isn’t the standard for everyone? I don’t think so but a visit to a Jewish synagogue should suffice as a practical refutation of anyone who might.

Did Jesus worship Yahweh? I think we‘ve agreed that he did.

Did Jesus worship any deity other than Yahweh? I think we‘ve agreed that he didn’t.

Proposition 1: Jesus worshiped only one person; his God and Father (Yahweh).

Proposition 2: The God and Father of Jesus is the God and Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob / Israel.

Can you and I agree on them?

 

[Pancho Frijoles]

Did Jesus worship Yahweh? I think we‘ve agreed that he did.

Did Jesus worship any deity other than Yahweh? I think we‘ve agreed that he didn’t.

Proposition 1: Jesus worshiped only one person; his God and Father (Yahweh).

Proposition 2: The God and Father of Jesus is the God and Father of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob / Israel.

Can you and I agree on them?

Yes, I agree fully, Matthias.

 

[Matthias]

Yes, I agree fully, Matthias.

Excellent.

Could you provide a list of the names of the deities from other religions - deities whom you believe are Yahweh, just going under different names - which you believe fit with these two propositions?