Genuine Questions for Cessationist's

[Scoot]

Hi @Anthony D'Arienzo and @Enoch111

Thanks again for your responses. You have some very compelling arguments that I have been considering.

One thing I am hoping you could help me with - how do you know which gifts are sign gifts, and which ones are not?

Christians should be clear that out of about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament, about 15 are still valid, operational, and beneficial. And every believer should have at least one or two of those gifts.

When I look at scripture that talks about sign gifts - it appears as though it's a mixed bag - ones that cessationists believe have ceased mixed with gifts that continue - with no clear distinction between the two:

ie:

Rom 12:6-8 We have different gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your gift is prophecy, use your gift in proportion to your faith. If your gift is serving, devote yourself to serving others. If it is teaching, devote yourself to teaching others. If it is encouraging, devote yourself to encouraging others. If it is sharing, share generously. If it is leading, lead enthusiastically. If it is helping, help cheerfully.

1Cor 12:8-11 To one has been given a message of wisdom by the Spirit; to another the ability to speak with knowledge according to the same Spirit;to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit; to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages. But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.

1 Cor 12:28-30 God has appointed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, those who have gifts of healing, those who help others, administrators, and those who speak various kinds of languages. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform miracles, do they? Not all have the gift of healing, do they? Not all speak in other languages, do they? Not all interpret, do they? Keep on desiring the better gifts. And now I will show you the best way of all.

Eph 4:11-1 And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers, to equip the saints.

Don't get me wrong - myself - I could not give you a single clear example of someone I believe has the gift of healing today (as the apostles did - they prayed and people were healed - not just some). Nor someone who prophecies today (accurately without fault today as those in the bible). Through what you have mentioned I can see why you believe what you do, and I'm very grateful for you sharing.

One thing I am left struggling with though - that if this is true - why did Paul write and mix up the gifts without being specific about what would continue and what wouldn't, and how does one determine which gifts ceased? Is it by observation, or is there scripture which clearly defines between the two?

 

[Joseph77]

Note that the "gifts", so-called, were never separate and apart from all in all in Christ Jesus,
as if
someone could get one such 'gift', without being abiding in Christ Jesus - and Jesus did in their midst
all the
things as written - just as Jesus did in their midst, while He was not yet ascended...
and
no part of Jesus was ever separate from all in all - He did not come piece-meal, so to speak, nor part by part, nor piece by piece, as if He could be at all, ever, divided up.

When Jesus is Present, where ever 2 or three are gathered in His Name, He still does as the Father Pleases Him to DO.

 

[Enoch111]

how do you know which gifts are sign gifts, and which ones are not?

Here's your answer:

ANY MIRACLES WORKED BY THE APOSTLES/COMPANIONS
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:12)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4)
[Note: All miracles are not necessarily recorded, and there must have been many miracles performed by the aposltes]

how does one determine which gifts ceased? Is it by observation, or is there scripture which clearly defines between the two?

1. Paul already said in 1 Cor 13:8 that prophecies, tongues, and (supernatural) knowledge would cease.

2. The "signs of an apostle" were limited to the apostles and their companions. This is confirmed by the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (1st & 2nd centuries) who made no claim to be either (1) apostles, or (2) prophets, or (3) miracle workers (including healers), or (4) tongues-speakers.

 

[Nancy]

Hi @Anthony D'Arienzo and @Enoch111

Thanks again for your responses. You have some very compelling arguments that I have been considering.

One thing I am hoping you could help me with - how do you know which gifts are sign gifts, and which ones are not?



When I look at scripture that talks about sign gifts - it appears as though it's a mixed bag - ones that cessationists believe have ceased mixed with gifts that continue - with no clear distinction between the two:

ie:

Rom 12:6-8 We have different gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your gift is prophecy, use your gift in proportion to your faith. If your gift is serving, devote yourself to serving others. If it is teaching, devote yourself to teaching others. If it is encouraging, devote yourself to encouraging others. If it is sharing, share generously. If it is leading, lead enthusiastically. If it is helping, help cheerfully.

1Cor 12:8-11 To one has been given a message of wisdom by the Spirit; to another the ability to speak with knowledge according to the same Spirit;to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit; to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages. But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.

1 Cor 12:28-30 God has appointed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, those who have gifts of healing, those who help others, administrators, and those who speak various kinds of languages. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform miracles, do they? Not all have the gift of healing, do they? Not all speak in other languages, do they? Not all interpret, do they? Keep on desiring the better gifts. And now I will show you the best way of all.

Eph 4:11-1 And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers, to equip the saints.

Don't get me wrong - myself - I could not give you a single clear example of someone I believe has the gift of healing today (as the apostles did - they prayed and people were healed - not just some). Nor someone who prophecies today (accurately without fault today as those in the bible). Through what you have mentioned I can see why you believe what you do, and I'm very grateful for you sharing.

One thing I am left struggling with though - that if this is true - why did Paul write and mix up the gifts without being specific about what would continue and what wouldn't, and how does one determine which gifts ceased? Is it by observation, or is there scripture which clearly defines between the two?

Hi Scoot,
You and I do have much in common where this subject is concerned, maybe more questions than answers . And yes, the biblical healings were instant and complete. I look at the healing as, God does not heal all and, all who are healed, are healed by God, saved or unsaved. As far as the other "sign" gifts, I can certainly see them happening in some 3rd world countries and, probably more often that we know.
And, who knows, if these special gifts are for today, could be that one is not sensitive enough to the Spirit to even know what special gift one has? Especially in the Western world. So, maybe I'm a "parasasionest

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hi @Anthony D'Arienzo and @Enoch111

Thanks again for your responses. You have some very compelling arguments that I have been considering.

One thing I am hoping you could help me with - how do you know which gifts are sign gifts, and which ones are not?



When I look at scripture that talks about sign gifts - it appears as though it's a mixed bag - ones that cessationists believe have ceased mixed with gifts that continue - with no clear distinction between the two:

ie:

Rom 12:6-8 We have different gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your gift is prophecy, use your gift in proportion to your faith. If your gift is serving, devote yourself to serving others. If it is teaching, devote yourself to teaching others. If it is encouraging, devote yourself to encouraging others. If it is sharing, share generously. If it is leading, lead enthusiastically. If it is helping, help cheerfully.

1Cor 12:8-11 To one has been given a message of wisdom by the Spirit; to another the ability to speak with knowledge according to the same Spirit;to another faith by the same Spirit; to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit; to another miraculous results; to another prophecy; to another the ability to distinguish between spirits; to another various kinds of languages; and to another the interpretation of languages. But one and the same Spirit produces all these results and gives what he wants to each person.

1 Cor 12:28-30 God has appointed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then those who perform miracles, those who have gifts of healing, those who help others, administrators, and those who speak various kinds of languages. Not all are apostles, are they? Not all are prophets, are they? Not all are teachers, are they? Not all perform miracles, do they? Not all have the gift of healing, do they? Not all speak in other languages, do they? Not all interpret, do they? Keep on desiring the better gifts. And now I will show you the best way of all.

Eph 4:11-1 And it is he who gifted some to be apostles, others to be prophets, others to be evangelists, and still others to be pastors and teachers, to equip the saints.

Don't get me wrong - myself - I could not give you a single clear example of someone I believe has the gift of healing today (as the apostles did - they prayed and people were healed - not just some). Nor someone who prophecies today (accurately without fault today as those in the bible). Through what you have mentioned I can see why you believe what you do, and I'm very grateful for you sharing.

One thing I am left struggling with though - that if this is true - why did Paul write and mix up the gifts without being specific about what would continue and what wouldn't, and how does one determine which gifts ceased? Is it by observation, or is there scripture which clearly defines between the two?

Revelatory gifts are finished.
Service gifts are fully operational.
The Apostles were promised to be guided into all truth. THEY WERE.
We have it all available to us in scripture.

 

[Scoot]

Here's your answer:

ANY MIRACLES WORKED BY THE APOSTLES/COMPANIONS
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:12)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4)
[Note: All miracles are not necessarily recorded, and there must have been many miracles performed by the aposltes]

Thanks Enoch.

Good point in that not all miracles were recorded. It would have been amazing in those times to have wittenessed all that occurred - although even more amazing to have been there when Jesus was ministering!

1. Paul already said in 1 Cor 13:8 that prophecies, tongues, and (supernatural) knowledge would cease.

2. The "signs of an apostle" were limited to the apostles and their companions. This is confirmed by the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (1st & 2nd centuries) who made no claim to be either (1) apostles, or (2) prophets, or (3) miracle workers (including healers), or (4) tongues-speakers.

Thanks so much for that reference. Again thanks so much for the patience shown with me in this thread! I think I'm slowly getting a greater understanding of what people are trying to show me. (ie: You see those passages in that Paul was indicating that these gifts are temporary - and they would cease prior to the second coming).

However - if I was to use that scripture for the 'line' so to speak - it only speaks of 3 gifts. You mentioned 5 I think it was. In particular I notice that the gift of healing was omitted from that scripture. (I'm talking about the sign gift, and not healing in general).

Hi Scoot,
You and I do have much in common where this subject is concerned, maybe more questions than answers . And yes, the biblical healings were instant and complete. I look at the healing as, God does not heal all and, all who are healed, are healed by God, saved or unsaved. As far as the other "sign" gifts, I can certainly see them happening in some 3rd world countries and, probably more often that we know.
And, who knows, if these special gifts are for today, could be that one is not sensitive enough to the Spirit to even know what special gift one has? Especially in the Western world. So, maybe I'm a "parasasionest

Yes - I definitely have more questions than answers. God may not have healed all - but all who were prayed for where healed. I don't know of a single instance in the bible where someone was prayed for and weren't healed. That wouldn't have glorified God, but rather it would have created doubt. (Yes - there was one where Jesus told them to go and wash, but it was a direct command when obeyed that gave a assured result).

Where Jesus didn't perform many miracles (such as in His home town) - the way I see it Jesus didn't first pray for healing and then go "oh - they're not seeing healing and miracles because they don't have enough faith - that's why my prayers are unanswered". Rather - it appears he identified the problem first and moved on.

Conversely - I don't know of a single instance where that occurs today. That is completely unlike the healers with the gift of healing I've seen - that have dismissed people to go and continue 'believing' for your healing if it's not evident at the event - or otherwise blame people after they've prayed and believed that come to them as not having enough faith.

For me - being real honest - it would be so easy for me to side with the ceassationists because of the countless charlatans and false ministers I have observed, when I have not seen a single example of a genuine one. (I have wittnessed genuine healing - but not as a particular 'healing ministry').

Just as concerning to me is if there are genuine gifts out there - why do so much of the continuists 'put up' with the charlatans, and not speak out against them? Only one camp really seems to be willing to warn people of false ministers - and that to me gives some credibility to them. (Although that's probably a question for a different thread).

For me - while there appears to be outside evidence to support cessationists - at present (for me personally) - it would be putting more faith in what I'm observing as opposed to the revelation of scripture. I believe in wisdom - but it must agree with scripture to be authentic. There are many things in the past that I observed that didn't line up with scripture - so I knew my conclusions of my observations were wrong, or my understanding of scripture was wrong. However for the latter - I need scripture to show me I'm wrong with other scripture - not my observations.

Regarding "sign" gifts - I have no doubt that there are people that pray for miracles and see miracles - but I don't know of an instance where someone has that gift upon their lives where it will occur every time such as being biblical. As such - I currently lean towards them not being evident of a sign gift, but rather they ask for healing (or whatever it is) - and God chooses when to, when it will glorify here, just as it can happen in the West (it just sounds as though it occurs more often in 3rd world countries).

But now I'm getting off topic.

 

[Joseph77]

But now I'm getting off topic.

This is your thread, is it not ?

For me - being real honest - it would be so easy for me to side with the ceassationists because of the countless charlatans and false ministers I have observed, when I have not seen a single example of a genuine one. (I have wittnessed genuine healing - but not as a particular 'healing ministry').

Jesus warned there are and would be MANY false, and FEW TRUE.
He also said to keep seeking His Father's Kingdom and His Righteousness, and (what Jesus means of) all these things will be added unto you.

The media, newspapers, television, internet, governments, pharmkeai, etc etc etc have no priority to give to truth at all,
and they have no way of identifying true preachers or true healers or true evangelists
from God's Point of View (Truth and Scripture).

They do what they do (the media, etc) , for MONEY, for PROFIT, and not for PROPHETS of God.

So how then would you hear of what God IS DOing ?

It not only gets censored - but when something good happens - the world attempts to squash it... make it go away...

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Here's your answer:

ANY MIRACLES WORKED BY THE APOSTLES/COMPANIONS
Truly the signs of an apostle were wrought among you in all patience, in signs, and wonders, and mighty deeds. (2 Cor 12:12)
How shall we escape, if we neglect so great salvation; which at the first began to be spoken by the Lord, and was confirmed unto us by them that heard him; God also bearing them witness, both with signs and wonders, and with divers miracles, and gifts of the Holy Ghost, according to his own will? (Heb 2:3,4)
[Note: All miracles are not necessarily recorded, and there must have been many miracles performed by the aposltes]

1. Paul already said in 1 Cor 13:8 that prophecies, tongues, and (supernatural) knowledge would cease.

2. The "signs of an apostle" were limited to the apostles and their companions. This is confirmed by the writings of the Apostolic Fathers (1st & 2nd centuries) who made no claim to be either (1) apostles, or (2) prophets, or (3) miracle workers (including healers), or (4) tongues-speakers.

Correct Enoch, all such manifestations ceased with the first century Apostles

 

[Joseph77]

hmmmm..... Jesus never said that. And Jesus still heals whoever He Wants to, whoever the Father Directs Him to .....

 

[Joseph77]

i.e. just because someone follows false teachers, false gospels,
or just because someone has not seen healing or prophesy in reality, in truth, in their life or in their group,
and just because they see so much false , as Jesus says there are many false (many more false than true),
in no way prevents Jesus today any more than it ever did -
realizing that even Jesus could not do , or did not do, many healings or miracles in towns where there was so much unbelief.

So the reason so many may never see Jesus heal or do miracles, maybe as Scriprue says plainly: because of so much unbelief.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

hmmmm..... Jesus never said that. And Jesus still heals whoever He Wants to, whoever the Father Directs Him to .....

Jesus ordained the Apostles to be with Him, they were guided into all truth.

 

[Joseph77]

Jesus ordained the Apostles to be with Him, they were guided into all truth.

What year, month, day, date, or other time indicated,
did Jesus say He would stop being with His disciples ?
That His sheep would no longer be shepherded by Jesus ?

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

What year, month, day, date, or other time indicated,
did Jesus say He would stop being with His disciples ?
That His sheep would no longer be shepherded by Jesus ?

Jesus never leaves or forsakes us.Heb13:5
Jesus told them how they would die.
2pet1:
13 Yea, I think it meet, as long as I am in this tabernacle, to stir you up by putting you in remembrance;

14 Knowing that shortly I must put off this my tabernacle, even as our Lord Jesus Christ hath shewed me.

15 Moreover I will endeavour that ye may be able after my decease to have these things always in remembrance.

 

[Enoch111]

hmmmm..... Jesus never said that. And Jesus still heals whoever He Wants to, whoever the Father Directs Him to .....

Divine healings and miracles by the direct intervention of God are not at issue. (Whether in answer to prayer or not). Miracle workers and healers in the churches today is what is being discussed. If those sign gifts had continued, then all churches should have had at least one or two such people in every church over the last 20 centuries. But that is not really the case.

 

[Enoch111]

However - if I was to use that scripture for the 'line' so to speak - it only speaks of 3 gifts. You mentioned 5 I think it was.

Paul lists miracles and healings as two separate gifts and that makes it five. As to apostles and prophets, they are presented to us in the Bible itself. What has been written down gives us a complete Bible, and the apostle/prophet John has stated at the end of Revelation that no additional prophecies may be added to what has been given. Therefore the gifts for ministry are evangelists, pastors, and teachers.

I don't know of a single instance in the bible where someone was prayed for and weren't healed.

James has already told Christians that for those who are afflicted or sick, the prayer of faith by the elders of their church is required. That is indirect evidence that healers would not be present in churches after the demise of the apostles.

or otherwise blame people after they've prayed and believed that come to them as not having enough faith.

It should be noted that there were many instances when Jesus healed people even without them putting their faith in Him or asking for healing. The healing at the pool of Bethesda is a good example. Also when Peter and John healed the lame man outside the temple, that was the last thing he expected. All he wanted was some alms.

We need to understand that God gave those sign gifts for a specific reason at that time. The Jews always wanted a sign, and sign gifts (as well as tongues) were to prove to unbelieving Jews that the Gospel had a divine origin, and that the apostles and their companions had been sent by God. In spite of that, all Israel did not get saved.

 

[mjrhealth]

Divine healings and miracles by the direct intervention of God are not at issue. (Whether in answer to prayer or not). Miracle workers and healers in the churches today is what is being discussed. If those sign gifts had continued, then all churches should have had at least one or two such people in every church over the last 20 centuries. But that is not really the case.

But that is only because

Luk_18:8 I tell you that he will avenge them speedily. Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?

seems to be a lot of that lacking.

 

[Joseph77]

Divine healings and miracles by the direct intervention of God are not at issue. (Whether in answer to prayer or not). Miracle workers and healers in the churches today is what is being discussed. If those sign gifts had continued, then all churches should have had at least one or two such people in every church over the last 20 centuries. But that is not really the case.

Why would "all churches should have had at least one or two" ? That would not be truth, and would not be in line with Scripture - nor prophesy of Scripture, nor the direction the so-called churches went after the 2nd or 3rd century - they followed another voice instead of Jesus.

The ones who follow Jesus (like the Anabaptists) showed the same power of faith and others saw it in them, for a few centuries,
and catholic and protestant leaders, religious and politic and social, feared the truth and martyred the believers in many places for their true faith.
In France (or Spain?; but I think France) about one generation ago (after 1859, before 1948), an evangelist* from west yorkshire england , a preacher of truth, was so successful praying for and healing so many who were sick,
the religious leaders got together with the civic authorities and made it illegal to lay hands on another person (to pray for their healing or to pray for them accompanied by the laying on of hands).

The evangelist who was sent from God , at the next meeting, did not break the law , the law that was put into effect specifically to stop him from healing people, (the pastors and priests were so envious, shamed and embarrassed that they could heal no one) ...

he preached as usual, powerful Bible teaching all true,

then told those assembled: Now if you are sick or want prayer, simply lay your hands

on your own self , and pray and ask to be healed (or similar instructions - not laying hands on another person)...

thus they kept the law.... of man.... in orderly fashion ...

and very many (perhaps all) were healed! God was not limited by man's law.

*Smith Wigglesworth was born on 8 June 1859 in Menston, Yorkshire, England, to an impoverished family. As a small child, he worked in the fields pulling turnips alongside his mother; he also worked in factories to help provide for his family.

revelationtv . com/programme/27649285
Smith Wigglesworth 24 Jul 2020 Smith Wigglesworth was an evangelist from West Yorkshire, England. He affected the Pentecostal movement worldwide more than any other individual in the 20th cen ...
Smith Wigglesworth - Historical records and family trees ...

www . myheritage.com/names/smith_wigglesworth
Smith Wigglesworth 1860 Smith Wigglesworth in 1911 England & Wales Census. Smith Wigglesworth was born circa 1860, at birth place. Smith married Mary Jane Wigglesworth circa 1883, at age 23. They had 3 children: George Wigglesworth and 2 other children. Smith lived on month day 1911, at address.... ... ...

 

[Scoot]

Divine healings and miracles by the direct intervention of God are not at issue. (Whether in answer to prayer or not). Miracle workers and healers in the churches today is what is being discussed. If those sign gifts had continued, then all churches should have had at least one or two such people in every church over the last 20 centuries. But that is not really the case.

Thanks so much Enoch111. I'm getting a greater understanding of cessationists the more I read this, and continue to realize a lot of what I assumed about their statements (or even accused them of) aren't what they believe at all. Thank you!

In regards to healing and miracles - it would seem that cessationists believe that these can, and still do happen today - but as a answer to prayer (when God wills it), as opposed to an actual gift upon someone's life (as a healer).

Does this mean that the same can be said for prophecy? (ie: That there is no person holds the gift of a prophet or prophetess, but God could still use someone at random to speak a prophecy)?

While thinking about this myself I thought maybe the take might be that prophecy and tongues have finished (according to 1 Cor 13:8), so it's not just the 'gift', but any instance at all - but this verse also includes knowledge (from the greek gnōsis) which occurs in other passages in the bible including the same letter (1 Cor 1:5) where Paul says "I thank my God always on your behalf for the grace of God given you in Jesus Christ, that in everything you are enriched by Him, in all speech and in all knowledge; as well", which tells me I might be going down the wrong path.

So I thought it better to stop and ask directly instead of making the mistake of assuming again.

 

[Enoch111]

Does this mean that the same can be said for prophecy? (ie: That there is no person holds the gift of a prophet or prophetess, but God could still use someone at random to speak a prophecy)?

The prophet-apostle John has already answered your question:
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book (Rev 22:18)

"These things" pertains to all the prophecies given in this final book of the Bible (and by extension all prophecies in Scripture). What John is saying is that there will be no more genuine prophets and prophecies, and if any pretender tries to claim in the future that he is bringing more prophecies, he will be severely judged. Paul had already stated that prophecies would cease, and you can read the writings of the Apostolic Fathers in Early Christian Writings to see that not one of them claimed to be a prophet.

As to the *knowledge* mentioned by Paul, it would have been supernatural knowledge pertaining to divine revelation, since ordinary knowledge was around for a long time. For example, how did Peter know the exact words spoken by Sarah to Abraham when they are not recorded in the Old Testament? That was supernatural knowledge given by God. And Peter also claimed to be a prophet.

For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands: Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement. (1 Pet 3:5,6)

Joseph Smith claimed to be a prophet in the 19th century. But when we examine his doctrines and beliefs they are contrary to Scripture. Thus he proved himself to be a false prophet, even though the LDS church has millions of adherents.