Genuine Questions for Cessationist's

[Scoot]

Hi,

This is a genuine (and probably unusual request), but I am hoping to have some fruitful discussions and gain an understanding of what Cessationist's believe - and why they believe it - from actual cessationists.

Humbly, and fully respecting that this is not my forum - is it OK please if I could request the following from anyone who wants to participate in this particular thread?


1) Genuine Questions by anyone is fine - but can I please request that answers or statements regarding Cessationism is limited to Cessationists?

I am asking that non-cessationists don't answer or make accusations about what they think cessationists believe. (Or make statements on where they think they're wrong). I am desperate for this to be a positive experience, and not deteriorate into arguments.

If I want to learn what JW's believe - I can grab a cult book and read what someone who isn't a JW believes that they believe. However I have learned that there is a lot of what they're accused of believing is misunderstood, or outrightly misrepresented. Also whilst listening to a JW respond I don't need a non-JW jumping in and telling the JW what they're saying isn't what JW's believe if you get my drift.

Same with Pentecostals, same with Mormon's, etc. I've learned instead that if I want to know what a group of people want to believe - the best source is that group - not someone who already disagree's with them and thinks differently.

As such - I'm respectfully requesting that answers to questions raised are answered only by cessationist's and that continuists don't represent cessationist's please.

Although if there are any non-cessationists like me who have a genuine desire to understand how cessationists see a particular scripture, or reconcile their thinking and can contribute without being condescending - please feel free to jump in and ask).

(If someone really wants to respond to my question that's not a cessationist - please feel free to PM me).


2) I'm requesting only people who have patience contribute (both questions and answers)

I've seen in other threads that a few people don't have the patience to be kind to others they disagree with, or have no interest in understanding someone else's view but rather just appear to want to their own convictions. I'm wanting to avoid that here if possible.

I'm also aware that some cessationists may have different views to others, and want this to be as respectful as possible.

Also - if being honest - I can be a bit thick headed at times too. I may not 'get' or understand you first time, and may ask questions that appear challenging. My intent here is not to challenge or prove anyone wrong - but to try and get a greater understanding of why I see some scriptures differently to cessationists. I know that some of my questions may come across as challenges - but they are with the heart of me seeing something a particular way and wanting to gain an understanding of 'the other side' so to speak.

Can I please kindly ask that anyone who doesn't have patience, or who will be offended and respond accordingly, or who will just respond mockingly please not participate in this particular thread. The intent here is not to prove one side right or wrong - it's just to gain an understanding of a particular view from one camp - and how they see / interpret scripture.



@Anthony D'Arienzo - if you have the time to contribute - I would greatly appreciate it. I've seen the patients you've had in another thread and would greatly appreciate your input.

_____________________________________________________________________

Some questions I have:

1) Can you please help me understand your views on healing? Do you believe that God still miraculously heals today through prayer, but just that the 'gift of healing' has ceased - or do you believe that no healing take place anymore. (If you believe healing takes place, where do you 'draw the line' so to speak)?

2) Can you please share with me your thoughts on demonic deliverance (either possession or oppression)? Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

3) Do you believe that The Holy Spirit can prompt us to do specific tasks. (ie, go to someone and give them $100, etc) - or do you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us through conviction, and revelation when reading scripture only?

4) How do you apply, practice or understand 1 John 4:1-6 (Testing the spirits)? Do you believe that is relevant to today, and if so, how?

5) Lastly - what would be your take on the following:

I had an experience many years ago (about 6 months prior to the 'Toronto Blessing' and without knowing anything about Toronto. I was at a beach with a friend and we were praying as teenagers at night. During this prayer time we both started laughing. It wasn't uncontrollable (we could have stopped any time), and we knew nothing of Toronto or anything else at that stage. Never had it happen before, never had it happen since.

Some months later - our church found out about Toronto and started going through a "laughing phase". I never had the same laughing experience in church myself. Honestly - I would have thought at the time that it wasn't of God and was fake... except for that encounter I had previously which made me suspicious of my suspicions.

However over some time years later - I found that a number of those caught up in laughter (particularly the ones that laughed the most) - bore bad fruit (divorce, falling away from faith, etc).

How would you reconcile what happened to me and my friend on the beach? Would you equate it to being a coincidence, or that maybe the Joy of the Lord really occurred, but others weren't genuine (or demonic)?

Or would you consider what happened to us on the beach to be demonic? (Please feel free to speak your mind - I'm asking because I want you to be genuine), or do you just not know how to answer this. (Which is fine as well - please be honest about both what you believe and what you're not sure about).​

I apologize if my questions are ignorant - because I know I am ignorant about this subject - but I'm really wanting to gain an understanding.

Thanks so much...

Scoot

 

[Enoch111]

Some questions I have:

Since I am a Cessationist, I will answer your questions:

1) Can you please help me understand your views on healing? Do you believe that God still miraculously heals today through prayer, but just that the 'gift of healing' has ceased - or do you believe that no healing take place anymore. (If you believe healing takes place, where do you 'draw the line' so to speak)?

God definitely answers prayers for healing, and even does miraculous healings, including bringing people back to life who seemed to be dead. God also heals even when prayers are not offered, and that is purely by His grace. As to the spiritual gifts of miracles and healings, they were primarily for the apostolic churches. If they were present today all churches -- regardless of denomination -- would have healers and miracle workers. Since that is not the case, we can focus of the prayer of faith (James 5)

2) Can you please share with me your thoughts on demonic deliverance (either possession or oppression)? Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

Christians can very definitely be oppressed by demons, but not possessed. As to exorcisms (as practiced by Catholics), I have some reservations.

3) Do you believe that The Holy Spirit can prompt us to do specific tasks. (ie, go to someone and give them $100, etc) - or do you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us through conviction, and revelation when reading scripture only?

Yes, the Holy Spirit does guide and direct believers, either internally or through the Scriptures.

4) How do you apply, practice or understand 1 John 4:1-6 (Testing the spirits)? Do you believe that is relevant to today, and if so, how?

Trying or testing the spirits is given in the context of false teachings, particularly the doctrine of Christ, but also the Gospel. Evil spirits work through false teachers. And the cults pervert the doctrine of Christ.

1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

Paul says that even if an angel were to bring"another gospel" it must be rejected -- it is accursed. So Christians must constantly examine what others believe about the doctrine of Christ and the Gospel of Christ.

5) Lastly - what would be your take on the following: I had an experience many years ago (about 6 months prior to the 'Toronto Blessing' and without knowing anything about Toronto. I was at a beach with a friend and we were praying as teenagers at night. During this prayer time we both started laughing. It wasn't uncontrollable...

Since there is absolutely no biblical precedent for such laughter, it should be regarded as unacceptable. It was probably not caused by the Holy Spirit, who tells us that we should live SOBERLY, righteously, and godly in this present world. This does not mean that there is no place for humor, but it does mean that crazy laughter has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hi,

This is a genuine (and probably unusual request), but I am hoping to have some fruitful discussions and gain an understanding of what Cessationist's believe - and why they believe it - from actual cessationists.

Humbly, and fully respecting that this is not my forum - is it OK please if I could request the following from anyone who wants to participate in this particular thread?


1) Genuine Questions by anyone is fine - but can I please request that answers or statements regarding Cessationism is limited to Cessationists?

I am asking that non-cessationists don't answer or make accusations about what they think cessationists believe. (Or make statements on where they think they're wrong). I am desperate for this to be a positive experience, and not deteriorate into arguments.

If I want to learn what JW's believe - I can grab a cult book and read what someone who isn't a JW believes that they believe. However I have learned that there is a lot of what they're accused of believing is misunderstood, or outrightly misrepresented. Also whilst listening to a JW respond I don't need a non-JW jumping in and telling the JW what they're saying isn't what JW's believe if you get my drift.

Same with Pentecostals, same with Mormon's, etc. I've learned instead that if I want to know what a group of people want to believe - the best source is that group - not someone who already disagree's with them and thinks differently.

As such - I'm respectfully requesting that answers to questions raised are answered only by cessationist's and that continuists don't represent cessationist's please.

Although if there are any non-cessationists like me who have a genuine desire to understand how cessationists see a particular scripture, or reconcile their thinking and can contribute without being condescending - please feel free to jump in and ask).

(If someone really wants to respond to my question that's not a cessationist - please feel free to PM me).


2) I'm requesting only people who have patience contribute (both questions and answers)

I've seen in other threads that a few people don't have the patience to be kind to others they disagree with, or have no interest in understanding someone else's view but rather just appear to want to their own convictions. I'm wanting to avoid that here if possible.

I'm also aware that some cessationists may have different views to others, and want this to be as respectful as possible.

Also - if being honest - I can be a bit thick headed at times too. I may not 'get' or understand you first time, and may ask questions that appear challenging. My intent here is not to challenge or prove anyone wrong - but to try and get a greater understanding of why I see some scriptures differently to cessationists. I know that some of my questions may come across as challenges - but they are with the heart of me seeing something a particular way and wanting to gain an understanding of 'the other side' so to speak.

Can I please kindly ask that anyone who doesn't have patience, or who will be offended and respond accordingly, or who will just respond mockingly please not participate in this particular thread. The intent here is not to prove one side right or wrong - it's just to gain an understanding of a particular view from one camp - and how they see / interpret scripture.



@Anthony D'Arienzo - if you have the time to contribute - I would greatly appreciate it. I've seen the patients you've had in another thread and would greatly appreciate your input.

_____________________________________________________________________

Some questions I have:

1) Can you please help me understand your views on healing? Do you believe that God still miraculously heals today through prayer, but just that the 'gift of healing' has ceased - or do you believe that no healing take place anymore. (If you believe healing takes place, where do you 'draw the line' so to speak)?

2) Can you please share with me your thoughts on demonic deliverance (either possession or oppression)? Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

3) Do you believe that The Holy Spirit can prompt us to do specific tasks. (ie, go to someone and give them $100, etc) - or do you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us through conviction, and revelation when reading scripture only?

4) How do you apply, practice or understand 1 John 4:1-6 (Testing the spirits)? Do you believe that is relevant to today, and if so, how?

5) Lastly - what would be your take on the following:

I had an experience many years ago (about 6 months prior to the 'Toronto Blessing' and without knowing anything about Toronto. I was at a beach with a friend and we were praying as teenagers at night. During this prayer time we both started laughing. It wasn't uncontrollable (we could have stopped any time), and we knew nothing of Toronto or anything else at that stage. Never had it happen before, never had it happen since.

Some months later - our church found out about Toronto and started going through a "laughing phase". I never had the same laughing experience in church myself. Honestly - I would have thought at the time that it wasn't of God and was fake... except for that encounter I had previously which made me suspicious of my suspicions.

However over some time years later - I found that a number of those caught up in laughter (particularly the ones that laughed the most) - bore bad fruit (divorce, falling away from faith, etc).

How would you reconcile what happened to me and my friend on the beach? Would you equate it to being a coincidence, or that maybe the Joy of the Lord really occurred, but others weren't genuine (or demonic)?

Or would you consider what happened to us on the beach to be demonic? (Please feel free to speak your mind - I'm asking because I want you to be genuine), or do you just not know how to answer this. (Which is fine as well - please be honest about both what you believe and what you're not sure about).​

I apologize if my questions are ignorant - because I know I am ignorant about this subject - but I'm really wanting to gain an understanding.

Thanks so much...

Scoot

Hello Scoot,
I will be happy to address this topic and your good questions.
In our day many have not heard the orthodox teaching of the confessional churches concerning these matters.
All truth comes from God. He reveals truth, He conceals truth.
Mt13:11-17.
I am working now,just responding quickly by phone.
I will need to be on my laptop to give a full response,so that will be in 3-4 hours when I finish for the day.

 

[Joseph77]

including bringing people back to life who seemed to be dead.

A number of years ago, a number of devil worshipers in chinese hospitals were reported to be raising the dead - after being dead 3 days to a week ...
Reportedly, (this was from a missionary), the devil worshipers raised more from the dead than the followers of Jesus did.
Oh, the disciples of Jesus did raise the dead also - after 3 to 7 days dead....
but not as many as the devil worshipers, apparently because the devil worshipers far outnumbered the believers.

There was no or very little "seemed to be dead" necessary - the very very really dead were sufficient.

 

[Renniks]

Yes, the Holy Spirit does guide and direct believers, either internally or through the Scriptures.

Doesn't this run counter to cessanism? I have read where cessanists mocked a Christian writer who suggested praying for guidance and listening to the Spirit. They seem to believe that only scripture is useful for guidance.

 

[Enoch111]

Doesn't this run counter to cessanism?

Not if Cessationists are honest, and properly understand what ceased and what did NOT cease. If anyone discounts the present work of the Holy Spirit, he or she is a fraud, and probably not even saved.

 

[Scoot]

Thank you @Enoch111 so much for your reply. I really appreciated it. I'm sure I'll have more questions to come , but just to start with...

Since there is absolutely no biblical precedent for such laughter, it should be regarded as unacceptable. It was probably not caused by the Holy Spirit, who tells us that we should live SOBERLY, righteously, and godly in this present world. This does not mean that there is no place for humor, but it does mean that crazy laughter has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit.

... I wouldn't have called it crazy laughter - just a good belly laugh (the kind when I see for the first time something surprising and funny - like watching an episode of faulty towers ). What intrigued me is that it just came when we finished praying. We never went there to pray - we just decided to while we were on the beach. We didn't know what to make of it at the time because we hadn't experienced or heard of anything like that before.

As a cessationist - from your perspective, do you think it was demonic, (possibly imparted by attending a Pentecostal church since childhood), and that there's something that needs to be dealt with in our lives, or do you think it was fleshly and just some coincidence? Or would you reserve judgement and say just to the point that it's nothing you can find biblical, so it shoudn't be pursued, encouraged or focused on as meaning anything and suppressed if it occurs again (as it was controllable) - but at the same time there's no need to worry about what occurred and just move on?

Doesn't this run counter to cessanism? I have read where cessanists mocked a Christian writer who suggested praying for guidance and listening to the Spirit. They seem to believe that only scripture is useful for guidance.

This is one of the reasons why I wanted to start this thread - I'm researching some things at the moment on cessationism and I'm finding there's things that I thought they believed that they don't (and vise versa), and I'm wanting to dialog to find out where they really stand.

@Enoch111 (and others) - so would my understanding be correct in these areas - Cessationists

- Believes the Holy Spirit convicts, guides, and prompts people personally, but does not give direct 'new' teaching outside of scripture

- However believes that the Holy Spirit gives revelation through the scripture.

- Does not believe the miraculous gifts are available as a direct ministry (ie, no gift of healing, no gift of tongues, no gift of prophecy)

- But believes that miracles (healing, raising the dead, etc) are still possible by God - just not resting on an individual as it did in the apostle times.

Once again - thanks so much!

 

[Enoch111]

Or would you reserve judgement and say just to the point that it's nothing you can find biblical, so it shoudn't be pursued, encouraged or focused on as meaning anything and suppressed if it occurs again (as it was controllable) - but at the same time there's no need to worry about what occurred and just move on?

I believe this would be the best way to handle this phenomenon.

@Enoch111 (and others) - so would my understanding be correct in these areas - Cessationists

That is correct.

Christians should be clear that out of about 20 spiritual gifts listed in the New Testament, about 15 are still valid, operational, and beneficial. And every believer should have at least one or two of those gifts.

 

[Scoot]

Thanks again @Enoch111

Would it be fair to say that cessationists follow "sola scriptura", in that because there is no more revelation (outside of scripture) that all we need must be found in scripture, and scripture alone?

If so - I was wondering if you have any answers or insight to a question on my mind regarding spiritual oppression (or even possession) and how it would be dealt with by a Christian today (or if it even should be)?

I'm trying to view through a cessationist's lens at the moment (which I may have warped or grossly misunderstand - hence my openness, wanting to understand - so please forgive me and correct me if I'm misrepresenting with my question) - but from what I can tell demonic deliverance unlike the miracles of healing and raising the dead wasn't limited to the disciples and apostles, but occurred before Acts, and by many others as well. (Pharasees cast them out (mentioned by Jesus in Mat 12:27), and "someone" unnamed also did so (mentioned by the disciples in Luke 9:49). Would you agree?

And if so - from a cessationist perspective - does that mean that the ability to cast out demons is still relevant today? And if so - under "sola scriptura" - how does one go about being equipped with what appears to be very few verses on the matter. (ie, how do we know which demons require prayer and fasting, vs commanding, etc)?

Sorry to hammer you with so many questions - I have many more, just trying to take things slowly.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Scoot, ,
Hello Scoot,

This is a genuine (and probably unusual request), but I am hoping to have some fruitful discussions and gain an understanding of what Cessationist's believe - and why they believe it - from actual cessationists.

Regardless of what we believe at this point, it is good to study it fresh, at least to correctly understand what others have believed. This is a correct thing to do for any major teaching.

@Anthony D'Arienzo - if you have the time to contribute - I would greatly appreciate it. I've seen the patients you've had in another thread and would greatly appreciate your input.

Thank you for the kind invite, lets begin.

_____________________________________________________________________
To answer your questions or any question I like to expand the question before zeroing in on an answer.

1) Can you please help me understand your views on healing?

Yes certainly,
Deut32:39 See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand.

God is completely sovereign over our lives. He can keep us free of sickness and disease, or He can afflict us,
Psalm119:67
67 Before I was afflicted I went astray: but now have I kept thy word.
71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

or as with JOB allow us to be afflicted even by Satan.
9 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Do you believe that God still miraculously heals today through prayer, but just that the 'gift of healing' has ceased - or do you believe that no healing take place anymore.

The Apostolic "sign gifts".Miracles, healings, gift of healings and all revelatory gifts have ceased as the Apostles have died and went to heaven.
God can heal in answer to prayer. My wife has been healed that way. My wife has also been healed through medical effort.
(

If you believe healing takes place, where do you 'draw the line' so to speak)[/QUOTE]

Healing takes place in answer to prayer, in the normal course of the Christian life.
No faith healers, they are all false.

2) Can you please share with me your thoughts on demonic deliverance (either possession or oppression)?

In scripture, demonic activity spiked at the time Jesus was on earth.
All idolatry as demonic spirits as the object of their worship;
1cor10;
19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing?

20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils.

21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table

Religious people who are not saved can be demonically influenced;
33 And in the synagogue there was a man, which had a spirit of an unclean devil, and cried out with a loud voice,

34 Saying, Let us alone; what have we to do with thee, thou Jesus of Nazareth? art thou come to destroy us? I know thee who thou art; the Holy One of God.

35 And Jesus rebuked him, saying, Hold thy peace, and come out of him. And when the devil had thrown him in the midst, he came out of him, and hurt him not.

Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

No, that is not possible. Greater is He that is in us, then he that is in the world.

3) Do you believe that The Holy Spirit can prompt us to do specific tasks. (ie, go to someone and give them $100, etc) - or do you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us through conviction, and revelation when reading scripture only?

We hear God through His word as He illuminates it to us;
ILLUMINATION
THE HOLY SPIRIT GIVES SPIRITUAL UNDERSTANDING by J.I. Packer

The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 CORINTHIANS 2:14

The knowledge of divine things to which Christians are called is more than a formal acquaintance with biblical words and Christian ideas. It is a realizing of the reality and relevance of those activities of the triune God to which Scripture testifies. Such awareness is natural to none, familiar with Christian ideas though they may be (like “the man without the Spirit” in 1 Cor. 2:14 who cannot receive what Christians tell him, or the blind leaders of the blind of whom Jesus speaks so caustically in Matt. 15:14, or like Paul himself before Christ met him on the Damascus road). Only the Holy Spirit, searcher of the deep things of God (1 Cor. 2:10), can bring about this realization in our sin-darkened minds and hearts. That is why it is called “spiritual understanding” (spiritual means “Spirit-given,” Col. 1:9; cf. Luke 24:25; 1 John 5:20). Those who, along with sound verbal instruction, “have an anointing from the Holy One... know the truth” (1 John 2:20).

The work of the Spirit in imparting this knowledge is called “illumination,” or enlightening. It is not a giving of new revelation, but a work within us that enables us to grasp and to love the revelation that is there before us in the biblical text as heard and read, and as explained by teachers and writers.
Sin in our mental and moral system clouds our minds and wills so that we miss and resist the force of Scripture. God seems to us remote to the point of unreality, and in the face of God’s truth we are dull and apathetic. The Spirit, however, opens and unveils our minds and attunes our hearts so that we understand (Eph. 1:17-18; 3:18-19; 2 Cor. 3:14-16; 4:6). As by inspiration he provided Scripture truth for us, so now by illumination he interprets it to us. Illumination is thus the applying of God’s revealed truth to our hearts, so that we grasp as reality for ourselves what the sacred text sets forth.

Illumination, which is a lifelong ministry of the Holy Spirit to Christians, starts before conversion with a growing grasp of the truth about Jesus and a growing sense of being measured and exposed by it. Jesus said that the Spirit would “convict the world” of the sin of not believing in him, of the fact that he was in the right with God the Father (as his welcome back to heaven proved), and of the reality of judgment both here and hereafter (John 16:8-11). This threefold conviction is still God’s means of making sin repulsive and Christ adorable in the eyes of persons who previously loved sin and cared nothing for the divine Savior.

The way to benefit fully from the Spirit’s ministry of illumination is by serious Bible study, serious prayer, and serious response in obedience to whatever truths one has been shown already. This corresponds to Luther’s dictum that three things make a theologian: oratio (prayer), meditatio (thinking in God’s presence about the text), and tentatio (trial, the struggle for biblical fidelity in the face of pressure to disregard what Scripture says).

I will now go to part2;

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

pt2.
We have minds that are being renewed by Gods word. As believers, we are meditating and communing with God all through the day. I do not ascribe every thought I have to the Spirit of God but at the same time God works in us to will and to do of His good pleasure.

4) How do you apply, practice or understand 1 John 4:1-6 (Testing the spirits)? Do you believe that is relevant to today, and if so, how?

Yes, but not how people mis apply it, watch;
4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Notice in verse6***he that knoweth God heareth us..[the Apostles]
he that is not of God heareth not us..[the Apostles]

The Apostles were unique as I posted yesterday;
Those gifts were temporary to credential the Apostles and Prophets as spokesmen for God, in completeing the revelation we need.,as Jesus explained to THEM;
Watch;

JOHN14:
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.

Jesus was speaking to them face to face.

26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,
he shall teach you all things,
and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

This was promised to THEM firsthand so we would get all Jesus intended for us to know.

John15:
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

Jn16:
16 These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be offended.

2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.

3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Only the Apostles;

Jn16:

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


acts4;
25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things?

26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ.

27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,

28 For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.

29 And now, Lord, behold their threatenings: and grant unto thy servants, that with all boldness they may speak thy word,

30 By stretching forth thine hand to heal; and that signs and wonders may be done by the name of thy holy child Jesus.

31 And when they had prayed, the place was shaken where they were assembled together; and they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and they spake the word of God with boldness.

32 And the multitude of them that believed were of one heart and of one soul: neither said any of them that ought of the things which he possessed was his own; but they had all things common.

33 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.
acts5
12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them.

14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.)

15 Insomuch that they brought forth the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and couches, that at the least the shadow of Peter passing by might overshadow some of them.

16 There came also a multitude out of the cities round about unto Jerusalem, bringing sick folks, and them which were vexed with unclean spirits: and they were healed every one.


see pt3;

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

pt3.

5) Lastly - what would be your take on the following:

I had an experience many years ago (about 6 months prior to the 'Toronto Blessing' and without knowing anything about Toronto. I was at a beach with a friend and we were praying as teenagers at night. During this prayer time we both started laughing. It wasn't uncontrollable (we could have stopped any time), and we knew nothing of Toronto or anything else at that stage. Never had it happen before, never had it happen since.

Some months later - our church found out about Toronto and started going through a "laughing phase". I never had the same laughing experience in church myself. Honestly - I would have thought at the time that it wasn't of God and was fake... except for that encounter I had previously which made me suspicious of my suspicions.

However over some time years later - I found that a number of those caught up in laughter (particularly the ones that laughed the most) - bore bad fruit (divorce, falling away from faith, etc).​

People have personal experiences. They ascribe some meaning to what they think happened.
Sometimes they imagine that it is more spiritual than it really is.
The Toronto garbage was not of God at all.If any spirit was there it was a demonic spirit.

How would you reconcile what happened to me and my friend on the beach? Would you equate it to being a coincidence, or that maybe the Joy of the Lord really occurred, but others weren't genuine (or demonic)?

I am not your judge, God is.
My reaction is, what possible purpose would there be for God to make people laugh like lunatics, or crawl like dogs, or nake animal noises?
I think this is a gross perversion of real biblical joy and a poor testimony.
God gives us a renewed sound mind.
Remember when the demoniac was healed, scripture said he was seated. clothed and in his right mind.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

no,not of God

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

more, not of God;

 

[Scoot]

Hi @Anthony D'Arienzo

Thanks so much for taking the time out to reply, and in such detail.

Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

Christians can very definitely be oppressed by demons, but not possessed. As to exorcisms (as practiced by Catholics), I have some reservations.

No, that is not possible. Greater is He that is in us, then he that is in the world. (

Glad to see cessationist's have the same differences on some topics as the rest of us.

I'm assuming from this that in this area, cessationists are the same as others. The majority believe that Christians can not be possessed at all - and the understanding of oppression is a more grey area matter with a variety of difference in views. As such - I'll at this point consider the thought on demonic oppression to not be a hard/fast cessationist view but that it's treated the same as in other streams of thinking.

People have personal experiences. They ascribe some meaning to what they think happened. Sometimes they imagine that it is more spiritual than it really is.

Please bear with me for a moment while I share a few things that's on my mind - as I'd very much appreciate your comment if you think there are things that need to be commented on:

For us - we didn't see it as spiritual. We had no idea why we were laughing when we ended praying (remembering, and I stress - we had zero knowledge of any 'laughing movement', or 'movement of God', or 'Toronto blessing', etc at the time. We were teenagers that went to the beach one evening, and sat down, and prayed. There was nothing else - no animal noises, nothing like the video's that you have shown - just a good laugh (which we could have stopped if we wanted to) - after we finished praying for reasons unknown to us. For me, the only reason I had doubts on my disapproval of Toronto is what occurred to me, however since then seeing other things take place (such as some of the things you have shown) - have me revisiting my doubts on my doubts.

Being honest though - it is very difficult when you've had an experience (that wasn't linked to a church, or movement, or any previous knowledge - something just happened, and we didn't know why we were laughing) - and then months later hear of a 'movement of God' to not consider if there is something going on.

The main thing through this is that from what I gather as cessationists - neither you or Enoch111 seem to believe that there's any demonic residue 'left over' from my experience that would require that we deal with it in one way or the other, so I'll put it to bed.

The Toronto garbage was not of God at all.If any spirit was there it was a demonic spirit.

I am coming from a continuists (although one who is very much questioning this at the moment) viewpoint, and I'm questioning a lot of what I have witness first hand and see elsewhere. I have serious doubts and questions about what is going on in some churches (being honest, I'm beginning to wonder if I've been wrong and ceassationists have some credibility to what they say). Either way - it is obvious to me that there are charlatans at work today with false signs and wonders. And with this - it seems to be more the ceassationists that are the ones raising the flag to warn others - while continuists (at least those close to me) - are offended and angry if anyone says something directly negative about a questionable ministry.

However in saying that - I'm aware that I have been wrong in many things. That's why I'm willing to consider ceassationism even now. But even with that in mind - I maintain the thought that I could be very much wrong in my current pursuit of thinking or if I change and become a ceassationist - because I've been wrong so many times before. I'm on a pilgrims journey so to speak, and trust God to guide me.

One thing that is a huge concern of mine is people saying "Thus says the Lord"... or "The Holy Spirit told me"... and go on with something - when later it appears that it is obvious that the Lord didn't really say it. Even more concerning that it's never addressed in the churches I have attended when someone says that and then it's later proven false.

From my perspective, I see a lack of fear / a lack of reverence when people saying this. (For me - I'd need Gabriel himself to rock up, and then probably Michael to back him up and tell me to pass on 'Thus says the Lord" (and it'd have to have supporting scripture) before I'd even consider saying such a phrase). The only exception to this is when I'm reading verbatim from scripture. I'm very worried about blasphemy.

For me - I extend that as far as "Thus did the Lord" as well.

Attributing something to God that He did not do. As examples - I've heard many equate healing as Miracles - to the extreme of "I had a cold, but I prayed and after a week God healed me - what a miracle".

Another was someone I know that went to 2 healing ministries, both times convinced that God healed her foot problem miraculously, and claims were made as such - but then later continued on to get surgery to get the foot repaired.... because the foot was not healed.

The church claiming both times a miracle of God - but never addressing or correcting themselves later when the claims they made were revealed to not be true. I can't help but consider if this too is a form of blasphemy.

The defense for such things I've heard is "How do you know that God didn't really do something miraculous as well", to which my concern is that if that is the yard stick we use to measure by - we will never be able to discern false prophets and so forth because anything is acceptable if we don't know one way or the other 'for sure'. My thoughts are that we don't attribute something to God unless we're certain - as both above are cases of absolute statements attributing something to God when it was later proven not to be true.

(I know, long winded - sorry - please bear with me - and thanks for your patience)...

However when I consider this - I also consider the flip side. If God did perform a miracle in someone's life and I said it wasn't of God, but was a demonic healing and attributed it to witchcraft - would that too not also be blasphemy?

I have serious reservations now about the 'Toronto Blessing'. I even question to the extent that some of the things we see in church today that are attributed to the Holy Spirit may well not be from The Holy Spirit, and there are questions in my mind to the extent that they could even be demonic. (I've heard recently of kundalini spirits for instance). I'm not saying definitively that they are - I'm searching / questioning for the truth. There seems to be so many Christians - all absolutely certain that they are right, all arguing with each other with no question in their mind that they could potentially be wrong in a matter. (I just look at some of the responses even on this forum as an example). To me, that seems like a dangerous attitude.

For me - being completely open - I don't think I could ever know for sure, 100% that everything spiritual that continuists claim are not God unless it went dead against scripture, or to go as far as saying I know with certainty that all these instances are demonic.

My question here is this:

How being a fallible man who can be wrong - can you state with absolutes that "If any spirit was there it was a demonic spirit" without fear or concern that if you are wrong in that matter - you could be blaspheming the Holy Spirit considering the eternal irreversible aspect of such a claim if wrong?

Please don't misunderstand my question - I am not challenging you at all - I've heard other ceassationists make the same claim, and some even more bold than you - and I'm genuinely wondering how ceassationist's are so confident.

Or do you see blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as something completely different to what I understand it to be?

Because in the text, I take it as the Pharasee's attributing something that God did as being demonic - and for me - I'm too fearful that I don't think there's a single thing outside of scripture that I would be willing to say absolutely about God one way or the other with such certainty?

(I'd also like to express my thanks to others silently reading through these that are respecting my wishes at the start - some probably quite tempted to reply. Just as a note - I'm more than happy for people to PM me, or if they want to discuss things raised in another thread to reply here with a link to a new thread where they're being discussed - I just want to make sure that this thread remains one where we can try and get an understanding of how continuists think without being derailed - thank you so much!).

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Now we need to really look ;
Here is what I see plainly taught;

25 These things have I spoken unto you, [The Apostles}

being yet present with you.{The Apostles]

We were not there. Only The Apostles were.


26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name,

he shall teach you all things,[The Apostles]

and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
[ you the Apostles]

Jesus cannot bring to our remembrance what we did not hear Him teach when he was here on Earth.

Does the Spirit allow believers to welcome the truth of scripture? yes
Does the Spirit help us remember things, yes

However, that is not what was being taught in Jn14, 15, 16.

Jn.15
26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.

This is addressed to the Apostles;
mk 3:14
14 And he ordained twelve, that they should be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach,

jn16;
4 But these things have I told you, that when the time shall come, ye may remember that I told you of them. And these things I said not unto you at the beginning, because I was with you.

Again, THE APOSTLES...

jn16;
12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.

This again is spoken directly to the Apostles, not everyone.
We can learn things based on what they wrote, but not one of us, is "guided into all truth".

Every false teacher pulls verse 13 out of the gospel of jn and adds 1jn 2:27 to explain why they are guided into all truth...NOT
Certainly when we are quickened and indwelt by the Spirit we are able to welcome the scriptures as God's truth 1 cor .chapter 2.
Any truth that comes our way is by the Spirit opening us to understand the word of God.

That being said, the promise given to the Apostles was unique.
When Jesus promised them they were going to be guided into ALL TRUTH, He was not saying they were going to be instructed on how to build and maintain a computer, or a jet, or solve complex math equations.
It was a promise that Peter alludes to in 2 pet.1:3
All things that pertain to life and godliness.

Their word was so authoratative that John could say he who hears us is of God. 1 jn.4 :6
He who is of God hears US....[the apostles]
He that is not of God hearth not us.
Hereby know we the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

If we were guided into all truth, we would not ever get it wrong.
Jesus promised the Spirit would bring to their remembrance what they actually heard Jesus preach, and they had been with Him from the beginning.
The Spirit would show them things to come..

Only the Apostles were being spoken to.
There is no verse suggesting that all believers are guided into a truth.

 

[Helen]

Hi,

This is a genuine (and probably unusual request), but I am hoping to have some fruitful discussions and gain an understanding of what Cessationist's believe - and why they believe it - from actual cessationists.

Humbly, and fully respecting that this is not my forum - is it OK please if I could request the following from anyone who wants to participate in this particular thread?


1) Genuine Questions by anyone is fine - but can I please request that answers or statements regarding Cessationism is limited to Cessationists?

I am asking that non-cessationists don't answer or make accusations about what they think cessationists believe. (Or make statements on where they think they're wrong). I am desperate for this to be a positive experience, and not deteriorate into arguments.

If I want to learn what JW's believe - I can grab a cult book and read what someone who isn't a JW believes that they believe. However I have learned that there is a lot of what they're accused of believing is misunderstood, or outrightly misrepresented. Also whilst listening to a JW respond I don't need a non-JW jumping in and telling the JW what they're saying isn't what JW's believe if you get my drift.

Same with Pentecostals, same with Mormon's, etc. I've learned instead that if I want to know what a group of people want to believe - the best source is that group - not someone who already disagree's with them and thinks differently.

As such - I'm respectfully requesting that answers to questions raised are answered only by cessationist's and that continuists don't represent cessationist's please.

Although if there are any non-cessationists like me who have a genuine desire to understand how cessationists see a particular scripture, or reconcile their thinking and can contribute without being condescending - please feel free to jump in and ask).

(If someone really wants to respond to my question that's not a cessationist - please feel free to PM me).


2) I'm requesting only people who have patience contribute (both questions and answers)

I've seen in other threads that a few people don't have the patience to be kind to others they disagree with, or have no interest in understanding someone else's view but rather just appear to want to their own convictions. I'm wanting to avoid that here if possible.

I'm also aware that some cessationists may have different views to others, and want this to be as respectful as possible.

Also - if being honest - I can be a bit thick headed at times too. I may not 'get' or understand you first time, and may ask questions that appear challenging. My intent here is not to challenge or prove anyone wrong - but to try and get a greater understanding of why I see some scriptures differently to cessationists. I know that some of my questions may come across as challenges - but they are with the heart of me seeing something a particular way and wanting to gain an understanding of 'the other side' so to speak.

Can I please kindly ask that anyone who doesn't have patience, or who will be offended and respond accordingly, or who will just respond mockingly please not participate in this particular thread. The intent here is not to prove one side right or wrong - it's just to gain an understanding of a particular view from one camp - and how they see / interpret scripture.



@Anthony D'Arienzo - if you have the time to contribute - I would greatly appreciate it. I've seen the patients you've had in another thread and would greatly appreciate your input.

_____________________________________________________________________

Some questions I have:

1) Can you please help me understand your views on healing? Do you believe that God still miraculously heals today through prayer, but just that the 'gift of healing' has ceased - or do you believe that no healing take place anymore. (If you believe healing takes place, where do you 'draw the line' so to speak)?

2) Can you please share with me your thoughts on demonic deliverance (either possession or oppression)? Can a Christian be demonically oppressed (not possessed, but oppressed), and if so - could you please share some thoughts?

3) Do you believe that The Holy Spirit can prompt us to do specific tasks. (ie, go to someone and give them $100, etc) - or do you believe the Holy Spirit speaks to us through conviction, and revelation when reading scripture only?

4) How do you apply, practice or understand 1 John 4:1-6 (Testing the spirits)? Do you believe that is relevant to today, and if so, how?

5) Lastly - what would be your take on the following:

I had an experience many years ago (about 6 months prior to the 'Toronto Blessing' and without knowing anything about Toronto. I was at a beach with a friend and we were praying as teenagers at night. During this prayer time we both started laughing. It wasn't uncontrollable (we could have stopped any time), and we knew nothing of Toronto or anything else at that stage. Never had it happen before, never had it happen since.

Some months later - our church found out about Toronto and started going through a "laughing phase". I never had the same laughing experience in church myself. Honestly - I would have thought at the time that it wasn't of God and was fake... except for that encounter I had previously which made me suspicious of my suspicions.

However over some time years later - I found that a number of those caught up in laughter (particularly the ones that laughed the most) - bore bad fruit (divorce, falling away from faith, etc).

How would you reconcile what happened to me and my friend on the beach? Would you equate it to being a coincidence, or that maybe the Joy of the Lord really occurred, but others weren't genuine (or demonic)?

Or would you consider what happened to us on the beach to be demonic? (Please feel free to speak your mind - I'm asking because I want you to be genuine), or do you just not know how to answer this. (Which is fine as well - please be honest about both what you believe and what you're not sure about).​

I apologize if my questions are ignorant - because I know I am ignorant about this subject - but I'm really wanting to gain an understanding.

Thanks so much...

Scoot

Great subject for a thread and hope you can keep us that are not, quiet...but I doubt it...will be watching and reading..

@Mike Waters

Now is your chance @Mike Waters ....go for it!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Scoot,

Glad to see cessationist's have the same differences on some topics as the rest of us.

I'm assuming from this that in this area, cessationists are the same as others. The majority believe that Christians can not be possessed at all - and the understanding of oppression is a more grey area matter with a variety of difference in views. As such - I'll at this point consider the thought on demonic oppression to not be a hard/fast cessationist view but that it's treated the same as in other streams of thinking

It is good to find agreement.

The main thing through this is that from what I gather as cessationists - neither you or Enoch111 seem to believe that there's any demonic residue 'left over' from my experience that would require that we deal with it in one way or the other, so I'll put it to bed.

ok

I am coming from a continuists (although one who is very much questioning this at the moment) viewpoint, and I'm questioning a lot of what I have witness first hand and see elsewhere. I have serious doubts and questions about what is going on in some churches (being honest, I'm beginning to wonder if I've been wrong and ceassationists have some credibility to what they say).

If your view changes, let it be because of the word and Spirit. I am nobody special, a sinner saved by grace. But because God has saved me I am obligated to help if I can be used.
I have know many former charismatic brothers who studied themselves out of that, and into a more biblical understanding.
Scoot, believe me when I say this....I would love to be an Apostle, healing people everywhere, I would like to see into the future with certainty, but at the end of the day I am bound by scripture.

Either way - it is obvious to me that there are charlatans at work today with false signs and wonders. And with this - it seems to be more the ceassationists that are the ones raising the flag to warn others - while continuists (at least those close to me) - are offended and angry if anyone says something directly negative about a questionable ministry.

When there were actual prophets receiving new revelation, the false did come along side them with their error.
Jer23:
16 Thus saith the Lord of hosts, Hearken not unto the words of the prophets that prophesy unto you: they make you vain: they speak a vision of their own heart, and not out of the mouth of the Lord.

21 I have not sent these prophets, yet they ran: I have not spoken to them, yet they prophesied.

22 But if they had stood in my counsel, and had caused my people to hear my words, then they should have turned them from their evil way, and from the evil of their doings

25 I have heard what the prophets said, that prophesy lies in my name, saying, I have dreamed, I have dreamed.

26 How long shall this be in the heart of the prophets that prophesy lies? yea, they are prophets of the deceit of their own heart;

27 Which think to cause my people to forget my name by their dreams which they tell every man to his neighbour, as their fathers have forgotten my name for Baal.

28 The prophet that hath a dream, let him tell a dream; and he that hath my word, let him speak my word faithfully. What is the chaff to the wheat? saith the Lord.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

However in saying that - I'm aware that I have been wrong in many things. That's why I'm willing to consider ceassationism even now. But even with that in mind - I maintain the thought that I could be very much wrong in my current pursuit of thinking or if I change and become a ceassationist - because I've been wrong so many times before. I'm on a pilgrims journey so to speak, and trust God to guide me.

One thing that is a huge concern of mine is people saying "Thus says the Lord"... or "The Holy Spirit told me"... and go on with something - when later it appears that it is obvious that the Lord didn't really say it. Even more concerning that it's never addressed in the churches I have attended when someone says that and then it's later proven false.[/QUOTE]

Yes, exactly...

From my perspective, I see a lack of fear / a lack of reverence when people saying this. (For me - I'd need Gabriel himself to rock up, and then probably Michael to back him up and tell me to pass on 'Thus says the Lord" (and it'd have to have supporting scripture) before I'd even consider saying such a phrase). The only exception to this is when I'm reading verbatim from scripture. I'm very worried about blasphemy.

For me - I extend that as far as "Thus did the Lord" as well.

Attributing something to God that He did not do. As examples - I've heard many equate healing as Miracles - to the extreme of "I had a cold, but I prayed and after a week God healed me - what a miracle".

Another was someone I know that went to 2 healing ministries, both times convinced that God healed her foot problem miraculously, and claims were made as such - but then later continued on to get surgery to get the foot repaired.... because the foot was not healed.

The church claiming both times a miracle of God - but never addressing or correcting themselves later when the claims they made were revealed to not be true. I can't help but consider if this too is a form of blasphemy.

Yes...very sad.

The defense for such things I've heard is "How do you know that God didn't really do something miraculous as well", to which my concern is that if that is the yard stick we use to measure by - we will never be able to discern false prophets and so forth because anything is acceptable if we don't know one way or the other 'for sure'. My thoughts are that we don't attribute something to God unless we're certain - as both above are cases of absolute statements attributing something to God when it was later proven not to be true.

(I know, long winded - sorry - please bear with me - and thanks for your patience)...[/QUOTE]

The truth delights to be investigated. I went through the whole book of Acts, every sign, wonder, healing,gifts....in each case the result was THE WORD OF GOD GREW, OR MULTIPLIED.

However when I consider this - I also consider the flip side. If God did perform a miracle in someone's life and I said it wasn't of God, but was a demonic healing and attributed it to witchcraft - would that too not also be blasphemy?

\i DO NOT THINK WE NEED TO BE PUT IN THAT PLACE...IN MT7:JESUS SAID THIS;
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

These were not cessationists....They claimed manifestations in Jesus name,but Jesus said He did not know them.
Jesus was God in flesh, and yet in mt4. He Himself used the written word of God to rebuke Satan.
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.

3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.

4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.

5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,

6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;

9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.

10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

Jesus, God in flesh, did not just say, Go to hell Satan, instead He used the written word, I believe we are to do that also.That is why we are given a complete word.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

I have serious reservations now about the 'Toronto Blessing'. I even question to the extent that some of the things we see in church today that are attributed to the Holy Spirit may well not be from The Holy Spirit, and there are questions in my mind to the extent that they could even be demonic. (I've heard recently of kundalini spirits for instance). I'm not saying definitively that they are - I'm searching / questioning for the truth. There seems to be so many Christians - all absolutely certain that they are right, all arguing with each other with no question in their mind that they could potentially be wrong in a matter. (I just look at some of the responses even on this forum as an example). To me, that seems like a dangerous attitude.

I do not doubt people are sincere, but I think they feel the need to "help God out: so to speak, and imagine things that they want to believe are happening.

For me - being completely open - I don't think I could ever know for sure, 100% that everything spiritual that continuists claim are not God unless it went dead against scripture, or to go as far as saying I know with certainty that all these instances are demonic.

Years ago I asked in prayer saying Lord I want all you have for me, and I want to be protected from the false;
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me.

41 And many resorted unto him, and said, John did no miracle: but all things that John spake of this man were true.

42 And many believed on him there.

My question here is this:

How being a fallible man who can be wrong - can you state with absolutes that "If any spirit was there it was a demonic spirit" without fear or concern that if you are wrong in that matter - you could be blaspheming the Holy Spirit considering the eternal irreversible aspect of such a claim if wrong?

When Jesus was on earth, some said that Jesus Himself was under the power of Satan.That sin cannot be repeated today, Jesus is not on earth now, but in Heaven.

Please don't misunderstand my question - I am not challenging you at all - I've heard other ceassationists make the same claim, and some even more bold than you - and I'm genuinely wondering how ceassationist's are so confident.

My faith is founded on scripture alone. The Spirit is given for that reason,
2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.

10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.

12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.

13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

Or do you see blasphemy of the Holy Spirit as something completely different to what I understand it to be?

As I said it was ascribing Jesus works to the power of Satan.
24 But when the Pharisees heard it, they said, This fellow doth not cast out devils, but by Beelzebub the prince of the devils.

25 And Jesus knew their thoughts, and said unto them, Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation; and every city or house divided against itself shall not stand:

26 And if Satan cast out Satan, he is divided against himself; how shall then his kingdom stand?

27 And if I by Beelzebub cast out devils, by whom do your children cast them out? therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.

29 Or else how can one enter into a strong man's house, and spoil his goods, except he first bind the strong man? and then he will spoil his house.

30 He that is not with me is against me; and he that gathereth not with me scattereth abroad.

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Here is what I keep posting about acts
4:3333 And with great power gave the apostles witness of the resurrection of the Lord Jesus: and great grace was upon them all.

Acts 14:3
3 Long time therefore abode they speaking boldly in the Lord,
which gave testimony unto the word of his grace,
and granted signs and wonders to be done by their hands.

There were thousands of Christians but it says it was the Apostles granted signs,it does not say the thousands of Christians were doing signs, but rather the Apostles.

The signs pointed and highlighted the word as authentic.

4 But the multitude of the city was divided: and part held with the Jews, and part with the apostles.