Genuine Questions for Cessationist's

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Hebrews2;
Hebrews 2:3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard, (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: pos hemeis ekpheuxometha (1PFMI) telikautes amelesantes (AAPMPN) soterias etis archen labousa (AAPFSN) laleisthai (PPN) dia tou kuriou, hupo ton akousanton (AAPMPG) eis hemas ebebaiothe, (2SAPI)

Amplified: How shall we escape [appropriate retribution] if we neglect and refuse to pay attention to such a great salvation [as is now offered to us, letting it drift past us forever]? For it was declared at first by the Lord [Himself], and it was confirmed to us and proved to be real and genuine by those who personally heard [Him speak]. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation, a salvation of such a kind that it had its origin in the words of the Lord, and was then guaranteed to us by those who had heard it from his lips, (Westminster Press)

NLT: What makes us think that we can escape if we are indifferent to this great salvation that was announced by the Lord Jesus himself? It was passed on to us by those who heard him speak, (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: how shall we escape if we refuse to pay proper attention to the salvation that is offered us today? (Phillips: Touchstone)

Weymouth: how shall we escape if we are indifferent to a salvation as great as that now offered to us? This, after having first of all been announced by the Lord Himself, had its truth made sure to us by those who heard Him

Wuest: how is it possible for us to escape if we neglect so great a salvation, which salvation is of such a character as to have begun to be spoken at the first by the Lord, and was confirmed to us by those who heard Him,

Young's Literal: how shall we escape, having neglected so great salvation? which a beginning receiving --to be spoken through the Lord--by those having heard was confirmed to us
preceptaustin

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

T WAS CONFIRMED TO US: hupo ton akousanton eis hemas ebebaiothe (3SAPI):

• Mark 16:15-19; Luke 1:2; 24:47,48; John 15:27; Acts 1:22; 10:40-42

950) (bebaioo from bébaios = sure, fixed, standing firm on the feet, steadfast, maintaining firmness or solidity. In classical Greek from the 5th cent. B.C. bebaios acquires the meaning of firm, durable, unshakeable, sure, reliable, certain; and in the legal sphere, valid, legal <> bebaios is derived from baino = fit to tread on = having a firm foundation) is a verb which means to make sure or certain, to prove valid or reliable or to verify and (in legal language) to guarantee.

The writer is saying that the word of this great salvation is put beyond doubt. It is guaranteed. It has been made firm and reliable so as to warrant security and inspire confidence. It produces an inner solidity.

One of the two LXX uses of bebaioo in a prayer by the psalmist parallels the use in Hebrews 2:3:

My soul weeps because of grief. Strengthen (bebaioo) me according to Thy Word." (Psalm 119:28 read Spurgeon's excellent note)

Bebaioo was used in secular Greek as a legal technical term meaning "to designate properly guaranteed security". Its use in a legal sense therefore gives it great force here, indicating that there cannot be the slightest doubt about the salvation offered. The main point then is that this is truth that can be trusted without hesitation or reservation.

The 8 NT uses of bebaioo…

Mark 16:20 And they went out and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them, and confirmed the word by the signs that followed. And they promptly reported all these instructions to Peter and his companions. And after that, Jesus Himself sent out through them from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation.

Romans 15:8 (note) For I say that Christ has become a servant to the circumcision on behalf of the truth of God to confirm the promises given to the fathers,

1 Corinthians 1:6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you,

8 who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 1:21 Now He who establishes us with you in Christ and anointed us is God,

Colossians 2:7 (note) having been firmly rooted and now being built up in Him and established in your faith, just as you were instructed, and overflowing with gratitude.

Hebrews 2:3 (note) how shall we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

Hebrews 13:9 Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings; for it is good for the heart to be strengthened by grace, not by foods, through which those who were thus occupied were not benefited.

Marvin Vincent says that this means that "it was confirmed, proved to be real, by the testimony of ear-witnesses."

Spurgeon was fully convinced of the truth of God's word writing that "I hold one single sentence out of God's Word to be of more certainty and of more power than all the discoveries of all the learned men of all the ages… The Bible is a harbor where I can drop down my anchor, feeling certain that it will hold. Here is a place where I can find sure footing; and, by the grace of God, from this confidence I shall never be moved."

The writer conveys to his readers the truth that one can stake their eternal destiny on the Word spoken through Jesus.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Y THOSE WHO HEARD: hupo tôn akousantôn:

• Hebrews 2 Resources - Multiples Sermons and Commentaries
• Hebrews 2:1-4 The Danger of Drifting Spiritually - Steven Cole
• Hebrews 2:1-4 Tragedy of Neglecting Salvation - John MacArthur

Heard (191) (akouo) means not just to hear sounds per se but implies hearing with attention or hearing so to speak with the "ear of one's mind". “To hear” implies “to obey.”

The words of the gospel of salvation were first spoken by Christ, then confirmed in writing by His apostles and thus there was only one generation between Jesus and the writer.

Paul for example got his message directly from Christ as he recorded in his letter to the Galatians writing that…

"I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man. For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ." (Galatians 1:11-12)

Hebrews 1:3-4 can be depicted as follows:

Spoken thru the Lord

| Signs, Wonders, Various Miracles

V Gifts of Holy Spirit

Those who heard

| Confirmed = guarantee

V ~Spirit (Eph 1:14-note

To Us

The writer perceives that under the pressure some were “going with the flow”—they were drifting away. They had not rejected Christ outright, but they were, in fact, ignoring Him. Their anchors, so to speak, were up, and they did not even realize they were moving away on the deceptive tides.

Ryrie feels that Hebrews 2:2-4 presents a contrast between law and grace (Hebrews 2:2 referring to the Mosaic Law): "The revelation of grace in contrast to law came through the Lord ("For the Law was given through Moses; grace and truth were realized through Jesus Christ." John 1:17) and was confirmed to the writer and readers of Hebrews by those who heard Him and by God, Who authenticated it by signs and wonders." (The Ryrie Study Bible)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Heb2:4
Hebrews God also testifying with them (PAPMSG), both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will. (NASB: Lockman)

Greek: sunepimarturountos (PAPMSG) tou theou semeiois te kai terasin kai poikilais dunamesin kai pneumatos agiou merismois kata ten autou thelesin.

Amplified: [Besides this evidence] it was also established and plainly endorsed by God, Who showed His approval of it by signs and wonders and various miraculous manifestations of [His] power and by imparting the gifts of the Holy Spirit [to the believers] according to His own will. (Amplified Bible - Lockman)

Barclay: while God himself added his own witness to it by signs and wonders and manifold deeds of power, and by giving us each a share of the Holy Spirit, according as he willed it? (Westminster Press)

NLT: and God verified the message by signs and wonders and various miracles and by giving gifts of the Holy Spirit whenever he chose to do so. (NLT - Tyndale House)

Phillips: and God moreover has plainly endorsed their witness by signs and miracles, by all kinds of spiritual power, and by gifts of the Holy Spirit, all working to the divine plan. (Phillips: Touchstone)

Wuest: God also bearing joint-testimony with them, both with attesting miracles and miracles of a startling, imposing, amazement-waking character, and with variegated miracles, and with distributions [of spiritual gifts] from the Holy Spirit according to His will? (Eerdmans)

Young's Literal: God also bearing joint-witness both with signs and wonders, and manifold powers, and distributions of the Holy Spirit, according to His will.

GOD ALSO TESTIFYING WITH THEM: sunepimarturountos (PAPMSG) tou theou. (Mark 16:20; John 15:26; Acts 2:32,33; 3:15,16; 4:10; 14:3; 19:11,12; Romans 15:18,19)

Regarding the statement God also testifying, Spurgeon observes that…

Those who doubt the truth of the gospel, or who say they do, are often found believing historical statements that are not half as well proved. A man sits down, and reads the book of the Gallic wars, and he believes that Julius Caesar wrote it; yet there is not a half or a tenth as much evidence to prove that he did write it as there is to prove that our Lord Jesus lived, and died, and rose again from the dead. The witness to the truth of these great matters of fact has been borne by God himself with signs, and wonders, and miracles. Honest and true men, apostles and others, have witnessed to them; and they have also been certified by Incarnate Deity, even by the Lord who deice to speak to us by his Spirit. We cannot, therefore, trifle with this gospel without incurring most serious guilt.

Observe, then, that this gospel comes to us by Christ, and it is confirmed to us by His apostles, and further confirmed by those signs and wonders, and divers miracles, which God sent as the seals of apostolic teaching; so that this spell is not one about which we can raise any question whatever. It comes by a medium which we must not dare to question, it has confirming seals in it which it is blasphemous for us to dispute. Oh, how gladly should we receive it! How tenderly should we treat it? How devoutly grateful should we be for it; and how earnestly should we comply with all its requirements?

This gospel of ours is stamped with the seal of God; He has set His mark upon it, to attest its genuineness and authority. The miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit were the seal that the gospel was no invention of man, but that it was indeed the message of God. Gifts of healing, gifts of tongues, gifts of miracles of divers kinds, were God’s solemn declaration to man, “This is the gospel; this is My gospel which I send to you; therefore, refuse it not.”

Bearing witness with them (4901) (sunepimartureo from sun = with, speaks of intimate relation + martureo - to bear witness) means that God corroborated their spoken testimony. It is as if Almighty God placed what they said in bold letters, italicized and followed with an exclamation point!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

When Jesus preached the gospel, He also did some things that made it even more believable. He said,

Though you do not believe Me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father (Jn 10:38).

When He claimed to be God and then did things that only God could do, He confirmed His divinity and, consequently, the truth of His message. On the Day of Pentecost Peter reminded his hearers that

Jesus the Nazarene [was] a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs (Acts 2:22)

God gave similar confirming signs through the apostles, the first preachers of the gospel after Christ Himself. Many of their listeners no doubt said, “Why should we believe them? What proof do we have that their message is from God? There have always been false teachers. How can we know that these are true?” So God bore His apostles witness by giving them the ability to do what Jesus had done - signs, wonders, and miracles.

BOTH BY SIGNS AND WONDERS AND BY VARIOUS MIRACLES: semeiois te kai terasin kai poikilais dunamesin:

Both (5037) (kai) in general is used to couple ideas which follow directly and necessarily from what precedes, while the "te" is employed generally when something is subjoined which does not thus directly and necessarily follow. Kaí connects and te annexes. Hence, te is the most general of all the copulatives (serving merely to show that the word or words preceding it has some connection with the one or ones following it). The place of te is usually after the first word of a clause.

Signs (4592) (semeion from sema = sign or mark) describes an event which is regarded as having some special meaning. Semeion is that by which something is known or distinguished. The related verb semaino means to cause something to be both specific and clear. The root word sema, was used for example by Homer to describe optical impressions that convey insights, e.g., signs like lightning that indicate the will of Zeus. Thus the signs may be simply pointers and as such are characterized by prominence and visibility.

TDNT observes that signs refer to

The general sense of a mark by which someone or something is recognized makes possible a varied use, e.g., for monuments, finishing posts in races, or identifying marks on the body. Despite divergent use, the sense is uniform. What is meant is an object or circumstance that conveys a perception or insight. The perception may be moral or religious, but the term as such is not intrinsically a religious one." (Kittel, G., Friedrich, G., & Bromiley, G. W. Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. Eerdmans)

See Acts 2:22 for the three words for miracles in inverse order (powers, wonders, signs).

Signs speak of the "fingerprints" of God, valuable not so much for what they are as for what they indicate of the grace and power of the Almighty. The use of the Greek word semeion indicates that the event is not an empty show of power, but significantly points to the reality of the mighty hand of God in operation.

Semeion may or may not be supernatural like the dunamis and teras. They are "signs" in the sense of being comparable to prophecies or spiritual truths. Semeion stresses the spiritual truth embodied in the miracle (Jn 20:30, 31).

Wonders (5059) (teras from tereo = to keep, watch) emphasizes that which due to its extraordinary character is apt to be observed and kept in the memory. It is a miracle regarded as startling, imposing or amazing.

Signs emphasizes the divine communication in the miraculous.

Wonders stresses impression made upon those witnessing the miracle; compel one's attention or cause one to "look again".

Miracles is better rendered "powers" and calls attention to the awesome abilities which produce the miraculous.

Signs reveal the purpose of God in the miracles.

Wonders attract attention.

Miracles show God's power.

The greatest sign, wonder and miracle is when bad men are made holy and righteous by God's grace through faith as testified by changed lives. Truly miracles in Christianity are still evident today for all to behold. People are hungry to see the power of Christ in reality, not the charade of charlatans masquerading as spiritual magicians or carnival side show freaks.

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Various (4164) (poikilos) means existence in various kinds or modes, diversified, manifold, variegated, many colored. Poikilos was used to describe the skin of a leopard, the different-colored veining of marble or an embroidered robe and thence passes into the meaning of changeful, diversified, applied to the changing months or the variations of a strain of music.

Miracles (1411) (dunamis from dunamai = to be able, to have power) speaks of power and especially of achieving power. The chief idea is that of something with intrinsic power or inherent ability, the power or ability to carry out some function, the potential for functioning in some way (power, might, strength, ability, capability), the power residing in a thing by virtue of its nature. Dunamis is the implied ability or capacity to perform. It conveys the idea of effective, productive energy, rather than that which is raw and unbridled. Dunamis is the word generally used by Paul of divine energy. The writer of Hebrews uses dunamis to describe deeds that exhibit the ability to function powerfully -- deeds of power or miracles. These miracles attested the spoken word of the apostles before it was given in written form

Paul writes that "The signs of a true apostle were performed among you with all perseverance, by signs and wonders and miracles. (2 Corinthians 12:12)

AND BY GIFTS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT: kai pneumatos hagiou merismois:

Gifts (3311) (merismos from merizo = to divide into parts) refers to the act of distribution, separation, or that which is distributed and is used only here and in Hebrews 4:12 where it is translated "piercing as far as the division (merismos) of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow… "

See Spiritual Gifts Chart and also resources on Spiritual Gifts

The Holy Spirit's role in giving of spiritual gifts is described in 1 Corinthians 12:

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. 5 And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. 6 And there are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. 7 But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8 For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills." (1 Corinthians 12:4-11)

In Ephesians Paul records that…

"WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN." 9 (Now this expression, "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? 10 He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things.) 11 And He gave some as apostles, and some as prophets, and some as evangelists, and some as pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of service, to the building up of the body of Christ; 13 until we all attain to the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a mature man, to the measure of the stature which belongs to the fulness of Christ. 14 As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves, and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming" (See notes Ephesians 4:8; 4:9; 4:10; 4:11)

ACCORDING TO HIS OWN WILL: kata ten autou thelesin: (Daniel 4:35; Ephesians 1:5,9)

According to the His own will - This is the qualifying phrase regarding the gifts. They are not capriciously given or at random but are divinely in accord with the will of God.

A similar statement is made by Paul in 1 Corinthians 12:11…

But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

In other words the Holy Spirit distributed the gifts to each one individually (thus every believer has at least one gift) and just as He wills.

Will (2308) (thelesis) refers to the act of willing as contrasted to thelema which objectively is that which is willed. Thelesis emphasizes the active exercise of will. God's free and sovereign will, assigning one gift of the Spirit to one, another to another as He chose. In other words God as the Sovereign Ruler of all creation gave where he pleased, and imparted in such measure as He chose.

John MacArthur explains that as a result of the exercise of God's will…

Every believer receives the exact gift and resources best suited to fulfill his role in the body of Christ… every person has his own special but limited set of capabilities. Trying to operate outside those capabilities produces frustration, discouragement, guilt feelings, mediocrity, and ultimate defeat. We fulfill our calling when we function according to God’s sovereign design for us. (MacArthur, J: Romans 9-16. Chicago: Moody Press)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Jude3
Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was making every effort to write you about our common salvation, I felt the necessity to write to you appealing that you contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all handed down to the saints: Agapetoi pasan spouden poioumenos (PMPMSN) graphein (PAN) humin peri tes koines hemon soterias anagken eschon (1SAAI) grapsai (AAN) humin parakalon (PAPMSN) epagonizesthai (PMN) te apax paradotheise (APPFSD) tois hagiois pistei:

Barclay - Beloved, when I was in the midst of devoting all my energy to writing to you about the faith which we all share, I felt that I was compelled to write a letter to you to urge you to engage upon the struggle to defend the faith which was once and for all delivered to God's consecrated people.

Wuest - Divinely-loved ones, when giving all diligence to be writing to you concerning the salvation possessed in common by all of us, I had constraint laid upon me to write to you, beseeching (you) to contend with intensity and determination for the Faith once for all entrusted into the safe-keeping of the saints.
The Faith - see discussion of the faith (pistis) = The sum of what Christians believe. Approximately one-half of the 38 occurrences of the specific phrase the faith refer not to the ACT of believing but rather to WHAT is believed. Robertson remarks that the faith refers to "the gospel, the faith system as in Gal 1:23; Jude 1:3, etc. (It) means more than individual trust in Christ."

In short, "the faith" here refers not to the ACT of believing but rather to WHAT is believed = the unchangeable message of the Gospel, that body of Christian truth which brings salvation (past, present and future). In Jude this faith has been delivered to the saints once for all and these who have crept in have distorted "the faith," this venerable body of doctrinal truth by which we are sustained and grow in grace. The descriptive phrase, "which was once for all delivered to the saints," makes it obvious that the reference is not to the believers' subjective faith but to the objective truths to which believers firmly adhere. (cp Gal 1:23 "preaching the faith" - clearly refers to the body of truth to be believed which corresponds to "the gospel").

The faith refers to that body of doctrine that was given by God through the Apostles to the church. The word doctrine is found at least sixteen times in the Pastoral Epistles alone. Paul admonished both Timothy and Titus to make sure the believers were being taught “sound doctrine,” which means “healthy doctrine,” doctrine that promotes the spiritual health of the local church. While individual teachers and preachers may disagree on the fine points of theology, there is a basic body of truth ("the faith") to which all true Christians are committed. God is not looking for volunteers. He has already enlisted you! The question is not, "Shall I become a soldier?" Rather, it is, "Will I be a loyal soldier in this life and death battle?"

The faith -

Acts 3:16; Acts 6:7; Acts 13:8; Acts 14:22; Acts 16:5; Ro 4:11-12, 16; 14:22; 1Co 16:13; 2Co 13:5; Gal 1:23; Gal 3:23; 6:10; Eph 1:15; 4:13; Phil 1:25, 27; Col 1:23; 1Ti 1:2, 14; 3:9, 1Ti 3:13; 4:1, 6; 5:8; 6:10, 21; 2Ti 1:13; 2:18; 3:8; 4:7; Titus 1:1, 13; Titus 3:15; Philemon 1:5; Jude 1:3; Rev 13:10

Wuest - The faith here is not faith as exercised by the individual, but Christianity itself in its historic doctrines and life-giving salvation.

Marvin Vincent's note on "the faith"…

Opinions differ greatly as to whether this (Acts 6:7 - the faith) is to be taken as meaning faith in Jesus Christ, or faith considered as Christian doctrine—the Gospel; the faith in the ecclesiastical sense. This passage and Galatians 1:23 are the strong passages in favor of the latter view; but the general usage of the New Testament, added to the fact that in both these passages the former meaning gives a good, intelligible, and perfectly consistent sense, go to confirm the former interpretation.

1. In the great majority of New Testament passages faith is clearly used in the sense of faith in Jesus Christ: "the conviction and confidence regarding Jesus Christ as the only and perfect mediator of the divine grace and of eternal life, through his work of atonement" (Meyer).

2. This interpretation is according to the analogy of such expressions as obedience of Christ (2 Corinthians 10:5), where the meaning is, clearly, obedience to Christ: obedience of the truth (1Peter 1:22). Accordingly, faith, though it becomes in man the subjective moral power of the new life, regenerated through the power of the Spirit, is regarded objectively as a power—the authority which commands submission.

3. This interpretation is according to the analogy of the expression hearing of faith (Galatians 3:2), which is to be rendered, not as equivalent to the reception of the Gospel, but as the report or message of faith; i.e., which treats of faith, akoe, hearing being always used in the New Testament in a passive sense, and often rendered fame, rumor, report (see Matthew 4:24; 14:1; Mark 1:28; John 12:38; Ro 10:16). Compare, also, obedience of faith (Ro 1:5; Ro 16:26), where faith is to be taken as the object, and not as the source, of the obedience; and hence is not to be explained as the obedience which springs from faith, but as the obedience rendered to faith as the authoritative impulse of the new life in Christ.

The great majority of the best modern commentators hold that faith is to be taken as the subjective principle of Christian life (though often regarded objectively as a spiritual power), and not as Christian doctrine.} (Acts 6 - Vincent's Word Studies)

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Once (hapax) = Not formerly, but once for all. "Hapax refers to something that is accomplished or completed one time, with lasting results and no need of repetition." (MacArthur)

Delivered (3860) (paradidomi [word study]) from para = alongside, beside, to the side of, over to + didomi = to give) conveys the basic meaning of to give over from one's hand to someone or something, especially to give over to the power of another. to deliver to one something to keep, use, take care of, manage.” The idea is that God gave the Christian doctrines to the saints as a deposit of truth to be guarded. He entrusted truth to the church collectively (cf this sense of paradidomi in Acts 16:4), and to each individual Christian, which is now our stewardship to fulfill (cp " Guard [aorist imperative], through the Holy Spirit who dwells in us, the treasure which has been entrusted to you." 2Ti 1:14-note). This faith was "delivered"; it was "not something which we have manufactured and discovered for ourselves." It was authoritatively delivered as a precious deposit. It is interesting to note that "delivered" is paradidomi which is the root word for the Greek word for tradition (paradosis). So by analogy Paul said we are to "stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught" (2Th 2:15). They had received this message of salvation, the faith, from others; now they must fight to preserve it (1Co 11:2, 23: 2Th 3:6; 1Ti 6:20,21). This message of faith was normative. It was not to be changed.

 

[Scoot]

If your view changes, let it be because of the word and Spirit. I am nobody special, a sinner saved by grace. But because God has saved me I am obligated to help if I can be used.If your view changes, let it be because of the word and Spirit. I am nobody special, a sinner saved by grace. But because God has saved me I am obligated to help if I can be used.

Thanks for that. If my view changes - it will need to be because I see it in scripture (and not to make scripture twist to my view - but be obvious. However - in saying that, I have found value in getting other's understanding of scripture. Many years ago when I was younger I did this with OSAS. While it didn't covert me to be a OSAS person - it did significantly change my understanding and open my eyes to scripture in a light I never saw before. I never even contemplated "False converts" prior to then.

I've learned that there is value in trying to get an understanding of why someone believes what they believe. Most often we are quick to judge others as being 'stupid' because they believe something different to us, and what's obvious to us we believe should be obvious to them. However I've found that many people have a reason for why they believe - and when you understand the why - it's much easier to get a perspective. This can help to view things when I've had a wrong impression - but also helps me to relate to others I disagree with in a way that makes it easier for them to understand me.

These were not cessationists....They claimed manifestations in Jesus name,but Jesus said He did not know them.
Jesus was God in flesh, and yet in mt4. He Himself used the written word of God to rebuke Satan.

.

That is a very valid point. It's unlikely cessationists will fall into that camp. That has always been a concern of mine growing up in a charismatic church. Many traditional churches couldn't make those claims (cessationists or not). The only churches I saw that could were us and catholic - which has had me keeping my thoughts on this scripture for decades, yet the lack of consideration of that scripture as even remotely applying to us was concerning to me. I rather treat all scripture as at the least having a possibility of relating to me - including blaspheming the Holy Spirit.

Although in saying that - it doesn't prove (at least to me) that cessationism is correct, it just shows that there are people within continuist movement that will fall into that category.

Jesus, God in flesh, did not just say, Go to hell Satan, instead He used the written word, I believe we are to do that also.That is why we are given a complete word.

Indeed. Satan also used scripture against Jesus - so I can see how important it is not just to know some scripture - but to cross check it against all other scripture - otherwise it is possible to be deceived by taking scripture out of context.

The scriptures to me are the foundation of my faith. I think the difference though (and correct me if I'm wrong) - some cessationists take it that if something happens that they can't see in scripture - it's automatically considered false without doubt? That God will do nothing that has not been done before in scripture?

Is this why some cessationists are so bold as to call things demonic that some contribute to The Holy Spirit without reservation or cautiousness?

One thing that concerns me is that I believe the Pharasee's were genuine in their desire to research scripture - but they were blinded. In part by man's traditions (Mark 7:8), but other things as well. (I suspect various reasons for various individuals).

But these were people who studied and took scripture seriously - who completely missed the coming of Christ - whilst others (the Magi) saw it plainly.

Then there were some who were cautious about their convictions (such as Gamaliel in Acts 5:39) to the extent where they were open to be wrong. (It's also my understanding that that some Pharasee's ended up being saved later).

Should any of us be wrong about The Holy Spirit, and call what He was doing demonic - that's a mistake with eternal consequences. (Although I consider the possibility that the converse of that is true too - saying that "The Holy Spirit" said when He did not).

With that in mind, when you say:

When Jesus was on earth, some said that Jesus Himself was under the power of Satan.That sin cannot be repeated today, Jesus is not on earth now, but in Heaven.

This is true, but instead we have The Holy Spirit who is on Earth. Thus the Pharasee's blasphemed against Jesus - which was forgivable. We though could blaspheme against The Holy Spirit - which is unforgivable. I'm struggling to see how you believe that it's necessary for Jesus to be in flesh in order to blaspheme The Holy Spirit, and was wondering if you could please share a bit more on this?

For if this is true too - that one can not blaspheme The Holy Spirit because Jesus is gone, then would you also say that someone attributing something to The Holy Spirit that wasn't really the Holy Spirit (aka Charlatans) is also not blasphemy of the Holy Spirit because it's impossible to do today?

As I said it was ascribing Jesus works to the power of Satan.

As I understand it verse 32 which says "And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." - I have always understood that Jesus was warning them - you have spoken against me - the son of man, because it was Jesus that they were speaking against, and not The Holy Spirit.

But as cessationists - does that mean that you believe that this is not the case, and that speaking against what the son of man did (Jesus) really means speaking against The Holy Spirit?

If so - how do you differ between the two underlined above? What does it mean to speak against the Son of Man - if the context above was what they were doing wasn't speaking against the Son of Man, but The Holy Spirit? (Again, apologies if I've completely misundestood).

As for the rest - I think I'm gaining an understanding of why cessationists believe what they do, but there is so much I'm going to need to take a lot of this away, and go back over scriptures prayerfully and meditate on them before I come back with more. I can see you have spent so much time responding, and with scripture which I am so grateful for. (Not just you, but also @Enoch111 as well - thank you both for taking the time!).

Most of what I've seen (on surface value) seems plausible and worth my time to dig deeper in scripture. There is a lot you both have shared that I need to go and digest.

The one thing at the moment I can't get my head around at all is the lack of fear of being wrong about blaspheming The Holy Spirit - as though it's impossible to do today. Even if I went full cessationist and was convinced - I still don't think I could bring myself to say absolute statements without it being blatant in all situations - in the instance that I was wrong (as I have been many times before). I think I could have been good friends with Gamaliel the Pharasee - he, like I have our thoughts - but also doubt our own logic enough to play it safe. Maybe if I need to pursue this any further I need to dig up an old threat on Blasphemy of The Holy Spirit and link it in here - just to keep this thread about cessationism and not blasphemy of The Holy Spirit. Edit: I have... here Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit

I'll be back with more questions no doubt in a few days after I've digested all this (unless of course someone else has questions in the mean time).

Thanks so much once again for sharing!

 

[Anthony D'Arienzo]

Scoot, I am enjoying the interaction and will do more tomorrow as I am burning out and will recharge in a few minutes...so I do not want to rush my answer.
If people were saying Jesus was influenced by Satan rather than the Spirit, it shows they did not have the Spirit, because without the Spirit they are not His.
I will do more in a few hours

 

[Mike Waters]

Great subject for a thread and hope you can keep us that are not, quiet...but I doubt it...will be watching and reading..

@Mike Waters

Now is your chance @Mike Waters ....go for it!

No appetite for cessationism at the moment.
Its importance being drowned in my present 'soul obsession' with the difference between sola scriptura, text book strait-jacketed, 'Religion' and spirit led, text book influenced, 'Faith/Hope'.
But I'm keeping that particular 'pearl' for the sole consideration of this particular 'swine'. (or should I say 'oink' rather than the smiley's 'eek').

 

[Mike Waters]

I'll be back with more questions no doubt in a few days after I've digested all this (unless of course someone else has questions in the mean time).

Thanks so much once again for sharing!

 

[Mike Waters]

I'll be back with more questions no doubt in a few days after I've digested all this (unless of course someone else has questions in the mean time).

Thanks so much once again for sharing!

I like much of what you say Scoot, and in particular I like the way you say it.
I've added you to my list of 'followers', each of whom have earned more 'likes' than 'messages posted'.

 

[Nancy]

No appetite for cessationism at the moment.
Its importance being drowned in my present 'soul obsession' with the difference between sola scriptura, text book strait-jacketed, 'Religion' and spirit led, text book influenced, 'Faith/Hope'.
But I'm keeping that particular 'pearl' for the sole consideration of this particular 'swine'. (or should I say 'oink' rather than the smiley's 'eek').

More emoticons, more emoticons!!

 

[Mike Waters]

Sorry Nancy,
It's an inclination that would offend most, if not all, and edify few ,if any, so best kept to myself.
But you can have it privately if you insist on destroying a valued friendship, your choice.

 

[Jay Ross]

More emoticons, more emoticons!!

Many people with the same opinion walking in circles again. A bit like a some forum members I know.

 

[Nancy]

Many people with the same opinion walking in circles again. A bit like a some forum members I know.

Ahahaha! U R phunee!!

 

[Nancy]

Sorry Nancy,
It's an inclination that would offend most, if not all, and edify few ,if any, so best kept to myself.
But you can have it privately if you insist on destroying a valued friendship, your choice.

I don't think there is anything you can say that would destroy our bro and sis relationship Mike. But, I will respect your privacy about it

 

[Mike Waters]

I don't think there is anything you can say that would destroy our bro and sis relationship Mike. But, I will respect your privacy about it

OK but please give me 'time' as I shall be otherwise preoccupied for a bit now that we enter a critical stage of my wife's cancer treatment.
Likewise 'forum' will also have to take a back seat.

 

[Nancy]

OK but please give me 'time' as I shall be otherwise preoccupied for a bit now that we enter a critical stage of my wife's cancer treatment.
Likewise 'forum' will also have to take a back seat.

Prayers and plenty..