God’s Grace and Covenant Bring Joy to Repentant Sinners.

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Purity

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God’s Grace and Covenant Bring Joy to Repentant Sinners.

Set before us this morning is no easy task for together we must cease from earthly thoughts and ways, and leave the cares of this world behind us in the hope of awakening our consciousness heavenwards, as we consider Isaiah 54 & 55 together this morning.

I am no Hebraist, but I am told if we all were Hebrew scholars we would immediately discern the feminine tones found in Isaiah 54, compared to those masculine tones in Isaiah 55. The Spirit has written it this way it appears for good reason.

Isaiah 54 has Zion (a thing of beauty) as its audience, whereas Isaiah 55 is speaking to “everyone” (Isaiah 55:1NET) which goes beyond “the servants of the Lord” found in Isaiah 54:17.

As Bible believers today we rarely consider the audience or its effect on those to whom it was written. For how can an Anglo Saxon assimilate with Jewish culture and language? Some may throw their hands up with a resounding "who cares", while other who Know the Father understand the possibility of rich lessons hidden there. For God deposits His wisdom amidst the richness of language and culture, and this morning with your patience I hope to enter the spirit of these chapters together.

Isaiah 54 and 55 share some interesting connections:

Turn with me to:
  • Isa 54:1 cmp Isa 55:12-13 Joy and Singing
  • Isa 54:10,13 cmp Isa 55:12 The coming of peace
  • Isa 54:10 cmp Isa 55:3 Gods compassion on people
  • Isa 54:3 cmp Isa 55:4-5 A new relationship with the nations
Upon reading these two chapters did you notice God is no longer dealing with their false religious beliefs, or the problems the nation was enduring at this time, now Yahweh is moving into the "eternal solution" as he begins to offer His children free food and water (priceless commodities for which money cannot buy). This food and water is the root of the Olive tree (Romans 11:17).

The Spirit of God in its wisdom draws it readers into the everlasting covenant through David and the forgiveness of sins, joy and the eventual fulfilment of God’s promises. The vision is one of the Lord Jesus Christ enthroned in glory upon his father David’s throne to reign as King in all the Earth.

But there are conditions one must carefully consider before commitment is given.

Isaiah 55 is a personal invitation to partake in God’s provisions and His Holy Covenant which we read in the first 5 verses (Isa 55:1-5). Another essential invitation is given in the following 7 verses (Isa 55:6-13) and that is to repent and “see” God’s Word fulfilled in the earth.

To be cont... (thoughts welcome)

Notes:

Isa 55:1 “Hey, all who are thirsty, come to the water! You who have no money, come! Buy and eat! Come! Buy wine and milk without money and without cost! 55:2 Why pay money for something that will not nourish you? Why spend your hard-earned money on something that will not satisfy? Listen carefully to me and eat what is nourishing! Enjoy fine food! 55:3 Pay attention and come to me! Listen, so you can live! Then I will make an unconditional covenantal promise to you, just like the reliable covenantal promises I made to David.

Cmp.

55:6 Seek the Lord while he makes himself available; call to him while he is nearby! 55:7 The wicked need to abandon their lifestyle and sinful people their plans. They should return to the Lord, and he will show mercy to them, and to their God, for he will freely forgive them.

I am wanting to understand the connection between verse 1-3 invitation to partake of God and His provision and the invitation for repentance. If He may be found. How do we actually grasp this process? I need help to explore what is actually happening here when a person obeys these first 7 verses?

It’s like God is crying out in the street behind one of those food carts - “HEY!!!” come over here! And then He follows with something “FREE” (Ok, you have my attention!) then He draws you closer “listen carefully – Enjoy – Pay Attention – It’s very provocative isn’t it, yes or no?

But!

Verse 6 ? Urgency!!! – am I wicked? certainly sinful and my plans can be perverse I know this much! – Repentance is most definitely the precondition to forgiveness here.

How does a person reach true repentance? Is it driven by the need to live? The water will surely reveal our dirtiness and we spend money on food which doesn’t satisfy us daily – so is the freeness of His offer the attraction to guide us into repentance?

As you can see I am probing the Word and you all for answers/insight.

(your thoughts)

Purity

I will also need to understand the connection between the everlasting covenant Isa 55:3 compared with the everlasting sign Isa 55:13.

Isa 55:13NET
Isa 55:13YLT
Isa 55:13KJV
Isa 55:13ESV

Hmmm both paragraphs or both invitations end with something everlasting!

Everlasting covenant - promise to David
Everlasting sign - fir and myrtle tree = to Yahweh for a name??? (the symbol of these trees in the Kingdom age must represent certain qualities of those who are given entrance!

Fir =
Myrtle = Isa 41:19NET ; Zech 1:10NET ; Isa 61:3NET maybe love, peace and immortality? - restore Israel?

Cmp

Everlasting covenant - promise to Abraham
Everlasting sign - Circumcision = cutting away flesh

Cp Isa 56:5: everlasting name. Ct Isa 53:8: cut off out of land of living.
 
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Purity

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Hi Will

Yes this is where Isa 55:7 is leading me.

Neh 4:5NET Neh 4:5KJV
Isa 30:1NET Isa 30:1KJV
Job 31:33NET Job 31:33KJV

One must remove the covering of their own making.

Notice in the garden Adam & Eve were required to remove the fig leaves "themselves" (not stated) before the skins could be applied.

God will not forcibly remove your covering and then proceed to deal with your sins - it can never work that way.

This principle is right throughout the Scripture and its here in Isa 55:7 also.

One must abandon their covering before God can deal with sin.

Notes:

If we had been reading this section of Scripture which begins back in Isa 40:1-11 we would not be in any doubt as to how God will comfort Israel. Isa 40:1NET is now clear. The people now know how their sins will be atoned for; Isa 40:2; Isa 53:1-12; Isa 55:6,7. They also understand they no longer need to fear the foreign nations round about for they are in fact nothing. Even more than this the nations will come to acknowledge and worship God and His goodness. (Isa 40:6,7; Isa 45:22-28; Isa 52:15 & Isa 55:5.

By the time we had received Isa 54 & 55 you now believe God will do what He has said for Israel and the whole earth Isa 40:8NET & Isa 55:11NET.

They now know without doubt the Good News of the Kingdom of God is all about transforming a sinful Zion into something truly to shout about (Isa 40:9-11; Isa 54:1; Isa 55:12-13)

(If I were in captivity how comforting would this be to read the Word of God and hear of His longsuffering and patience not to mention His plans of good toward me?) One must be able to empathise with Israel and their long sinful history as Christianity will be in the same apostate position as Israel is in Isa 54 & 55 before the Lords return! )

Sober warning.




Purity said:
Myrtle = Isa 41:19NET ; Zech 1:10NET ; Isa 61:3NET maybe love, peace and immortality? - restore Israel?
Certainly branches of myrtle trees were used to make the booths during the Festival of Tabernacles (Neh 8:15 ).
The myrtle has been associated with the ideas of love, peace and immortality from ancient times.
As thorns are symbolic of rebellious Israel (Heb 6:8 ). so the myrtle. of repentant and restored Israel (Isa 41:19; Isa 41:55; Isa 61:3).
The myrtle finds a place in the vision of Zechariah regarding the Millennium (Zec 1:8 ), or the antitypical Feast of Tabernacles (Zec 14:16).
It is a large, evergreen shrub, growing over 18 ft. high, bearing beautiful white flowers that give forth an exquisite perfume, with leaves noted for their fragrance. It bears purplish black-berries, known as mursins, which have a medicinal value.
Esther's first name Hadassah is the Hebrew title for the Myrtle.
 

williemac

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Purity said:
Hi Will

Yes this is where Isa 55:7 is leading me.

Neh 4:5NET Neh 4:5KJV
Isa 30:1NET Isa 30:1KJV
Job 31:33NET Job 31:33KJV

One must remove the covering of their own making.

Notice in the garden Adam & Eve were required to remove the fig leaves "themselves" (not stated) before the skins could be applied.

God will not forcibly remove your covering and then proceed to deal with your sins - it can never work that way.

This principle is right throughout the Scripture and its here in Isa 55:7 also.

One must abandon their covering before God can deal with sin.
Adam and Eve hid from God out of shame and guilt. Thus they felt naked and ashamed. Hence the fig leaves. In Luke 18:10-14, we see two examples of men praying to God. The one was in self exaltation in boasting about his life and works. The other beat his breast and confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. The latter went away justified. To remove one's so called covering, one needs to acknowledge his state. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The first man, the pharisee, would have needed to repent of his pride. Our covering is that which denies our need for God's help. Our covering is our own attempt to either solve or hide our sin. One has its root in pride, self righteousness, self exaltation, the other in shame and guilt. The two solutions to these from God is the law, and love. The law reveals our condition. Love draws us to the Savior.

I had asked you to define repentance.
 

Purity

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williemac said:
To remove one's so called covering, one needs to acknowledge his state. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

You did on my behalf. :)
Isa 1:18,19,20...can we forsake now that is the question.

Thank you
Purity

Study Cont...


Where possible it is good practice to highlight God’s all sufficient Grace and Mercy within the Written Word. If you read Isa 54 you will see the numerous references to the feminine i,e woman and widowhood etc. referring to Zion, whereas Isa 55 is where the covenant of David is mentioned and in Isa 55:5 the invitation is to ALL nations. The Jews had reached a position of close mindedness where they believed they were solely the inheritors of God’s blessings. How wrong they were! Notice the alarm God’s introduces to the readers in Isa 55? Look at the “beholds” in Isa 55:4KJV Isa 55:5KJV – it’s like God is saying “Hey, come and behold my invitation to freely eat!” Isa 55:1,2 but wait!!! “ Here is the impact of this everlasting covenant should you take part in it - Isa 55:3,4,5. He then goes on to explain how this everlasting covenant will impact the nation in terms of the future work of the Servant of the Lord (If you read Isa 42:1-6; Isa 49:5-8.)




Thoughts on the everlasting covenant compared to the everlasting sign in Isa 55.


Have you noticed how a covenant is always associated with a natural sign?


- Adam & Eve in Gen 3:15 and the sign in the covering of skin

- Noah in Gen 9:16 everlasting covenant and the rainbow

- Abraham in Gen 13 and the sign of circumcision Gen 17:11

- Phinehas and the covering of peace - Num 25:11,12; reason why is found in Mal 2:4,5 (natural sign ?????) Jesus the King of Peace?

- David and the Myrtle and Palm both now and in the Kingdom age Isa 55:13

- Blood of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20KJV - the Lord's own blood!

How these signs relate to the covenant requires further examination.

williemac said:
Adam and Eve hid from God out of shame and guilt. Thus they felt naked and ashamed. Hence the fig leaves. In Luke 18:10-14, we see two examples of men praying to God. The one was in self exaltation in boasting about his life and works. The other beat his breast and confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. The latter went away justified. To remove one's so called covering, one needs to acknowledge his state. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Will, thanks for reminding us of Luke 18:10-14.

Can you see how this passage relates so powerfully to Isaiah 54 & 55?

-Pharisee - Isa 54
-Pagan & the Tax collector - Isa 55

The lesson if taken in is a warning to us all.

Pride is so subtle that if we are not careful we can be proud of our humility.

Purity


Isa 55:3NET cmp Isa 6:9,10NET

notes:
Isaiah 55:3 is like a repeat of Isa 55:2 making strong the emphasis to respond. If you want God’s blessings one must make the effort (themselves) to listen. Through this message God is saying “the old ways of being stubborn and closed minded with eyes that do not see and ear's that do not hear, must be a thing of the past!" If they truly desire God’s Kingdom on Earth and all its Glory (Num 14:21) they must listen to Yahweh’s gracious invitation to enjoy His feast…a table prepared of the Lord! This is really about the renewing of minds; the transforming of our thinking from the earthy carnal thoughts to divine thoughts established upon principles of truth. It’s when one seeks to develop this mind they can begin to think in harmony with God and the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s not a deposit of power or wisdom…but rather active listening with discernment that is the Spiritual Mind.

Purity said:

Have you noticed how a covenant is always associated with a natural sign?


- Adam & Eve in Gen 3:15 and the sign in the covering of skin


- Noah in Gen 9:16 everlasting covenant and the rainbow

- Abraham in Gen 13 and the sign of circumcision Gen 17:11

- Phinehas and the covering of peace - Num 25:11,12; reason why is found in Mal 2:4,5 (natural sign ?????) Jesus the King of Peace?

- David and the Myrtle and Palm both now and in the Kingdom age Isa 55:13

- Blood of the everlasting covenant Heb 13:20KJV - the Lord's own blood!

How these signs relate to the covenant requires further examination.


Now the everlasting covenant of David also relates to the all-encompassing everlasting covenant which was ratified in the Blood of Jesus Christ Heb 13:20. The covenants speak to many things but Isaiah makes reference to God’s everlasting characteristics.

- Everlasting Salvation Isa 45:17; Isa 51:6,8
- Everlasting Kindness Isa 54:8
- God's covenant with Noah is also mentioned in Isa 54:9

Here is an interesting thought:

Which of the covenants involved a blessing to all Nations in the Earth?

Purity said:
I am wanting to understand the connection between verse 1-3 invitation to partake of God and His provision and the invitation for repentance.
[SIZE=10pt]Invitation to eat and drink:[/SIZE]
  1. [SIZE=10pt]Lady Wisdom in Proverbs 9:1-8[/SIZE]
  2. [SIZE=10pt]Was there such a thing as water sellers in the markets?[/SIZE]
  3. [SIZE=10pt]Could it be likened to a King inviting guests to a royal banquet? [/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Is it a universal call to a new life to feast with God in HIs presence. [/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Abraham made a great feast Gen 21:8 for the household of faith[/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus Luke 14:13 “note not the deaf!” they must come with hearing![/SIZE]
[SIZE=10pt]Jesus in John 7:37 – Matt in Luke 5:29 – Belshazzar in Dan 5:1[/SIZE]

[SIZE=10pt]Yahweh's feast surpasses them all as His beloved Son discovered everyday. [/SIZE]



More notes and thoughts:


So, Matt 18:21 Peter asks about forgiveness and Jesus gives this outstanding answer and then goes into a parable in Matt 18:23 to help them see how huge forgiveness truly is. Clearly, when the man sought the king's mercy and says that he'll "pay all", he didn't understand the gravity of his dept (aka - sin): from what I have been able to research, this man wasn't physically able to pay back what he owed! It was the equivalent of 200,000 YEARS of wages! And the King didn't just give more time (which wouldn't have really helped, seeing it was literally impossible to pay back), he forgave the entire debt. Now, my connection to Isaiah 55 here is the free-ness of it all: God is freely offering everlasting life. In fact, the NKJV has the heading "An invitation to abundant life" for this chapter, which I think is beautiful!!

And the king in the parable freely forgave, which is a huge part of being able to take God's invitation: God even inviting us to abundant life hinges on the fact that He has forgiven us.

But then the man in the parable goes and acts so horribly to his peers, who owed him by comparison 1/3 of a years' wages. If you make $60,000/ year, than a third of that is definitely valuable, nothing to sneeze at! But it was NOTHING compared to what the King had already forgiven the man.

This is where the man of Matthew 18 failed to do Isaiah 55:6-7, forsaking his sinful ways and returning to the Lord. The forgiveness of our sins IS conditional, which is something so many Christians have wrong. I can find 4 conditions for our pardon:

1) Confession - 1 John 1:7-10 ("if"); Proverbs 28:13KJV
2) Contrition - Psalm 51:16-19; Isaiah 66:2; Ps 34:18-19 (an attitude of humility)
3) Change - 2 Cor 7:8-11: tears alone don't cut it (Hebrews 12:17, 1 Sam 24:16, Deut 1:45), but God does have respect for tears that accompany change: 2 Kings 20:5, Lk 22:61-62
4) Compassion - and this is where the man in the parable failed. Matthew 18:35 "from your hearts"; Mt 16:12, 14-15; Romans 12:8; Col 3:13.

I've always been intrigued that verse one of Isaiah 55 counsels us to "buy'" something that is free! That doesn't really make sense. But I think it's because of what the man in the parable failed to see: he was under an obligation before he was forgiven (and this was freely removed/given him), but the Lord clearly saw the man as STILL under an obligation AFTER he had been forgiven! It's not enough to accept what has freely been given us... we still have a part to do. The obligation had changed for the man: he was no longer obliged to pay back the debt he owed (or, in the case of Isaiah 55:1-3, pay for what he was being offered), but he was obliged to follow the example of his Lord! And the example of our Lord in the context of Isaiah 55 is verses 6-7. We are obliged to forgive like the Lord! We are obliged to now act like the Lord!



Further notes on Isa 55:3
This could also have something to do with the cost of hearing? The sacrifice of ones hearing of the things of the world by giving up your own will? A price paid – A broken will beginning with the ears and moving to the heart.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;

Other than eating this is the first action requested of God upon those who would come - this is a cost paid before one can eat and freely drink.
 

williemac

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Purity said:

This could also have something to do with the cost of hearing? The sacrifice of ones hearing of the things of the world by giving up your own will? A price paid – A broken will beginning with the ears and moving to the heart.

Isa 55:3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live;

Other than eating this is the first action requested of God upon those who would come - this is a cost paid before one can eat and freely drink.
I am intrigued at the perspective that hearing God would be considered a cost that is paid. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. What is the cost of hearing the good news? How shall they hear without a preacher? How lovely on the mountain are the feet of him who brings good news! While there may be a cost in the bringing of the good news, hearing the good news is a passive endeavor. It costs nothing to listen to what God is saying. This does not take a broken will. It takes humility.

Any breaking of our will that takes place is done after we are made a new creation, not before. Once we are given everlasting life, and once the treasure occupies this earthen vessel (2Cor.4:7), it is then that our warfare with the flesh is waged....not before.

But even then, the good news remains good news. We will not be defeated by the flesh in the end. He who begins a good work is He who completes it. We do not do the completing. That is neither our agenda nor our goal. Working out our salvation is accompanied by assurance ( a guarantee) , not by worry, not by fear of rejection, not by uncertainty. These do not motivate success, they feed failure.

Cheers and blessings, Howie ^_^
 

Purity

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williemac said:

I am intrigued at the perspective that hearing God would be considered a cost that is paid. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. What is the cost of hearing the good news? How shall they hear without a preacher? How lovely on the mountain are the feet of him who brings good news! While there may be a cost in the bringing of the good news, hearing the good news is a passive endeavor. It costs nothing to listen to what God is saying. This does not take a broken will. It takes humility.

Any breaking of our will that takes place is done after we are made a new creation, not before. Once we are given everlasting life, and once the treasure occupies this earthen vessel (2Cor.4:7), it is then that our warfare with the flesh is waged....not before.

But even then, the good news remains good news. We will not be defeated by the flesh in the end. He who begins a good work is He who completes it. We do not do the completing. That is neither our agenda nor our goal. Working out our salvation is accompanied by assurance ( a guarantee) , not by worry, not by fear of rejection, not by uncertainty. These do not motivate success, they feed failure.

Cheers and blessings, Howie ^_^

Greetings Howie

No doubt you can see I am building my notes and this process can take some time of testing and retesting. I should qualify in advance I am not suggesting this is so merely putting forth the idea at this stage. Have you given any thought to buying without money?

If I may test one point you made


This does not take a broken will. It takes humility.
Luke 22:42 - Did Jesus not break his own will and listen to that of His Fathers?

Purity
 

Purity

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williemac said:


I am intrigued at the perspective that hearing God would be considered a cost that is paid.

Cheers and blessings, Howie ^_^
Isa 55:2,3

Having set forth the blessings of Messianic salvation in the preceding ch - Isa 54, Yahweh invites people to enjoy the blessings of salvation.

Notice the symbols of Wine, (water) and milk in Gen 49:12 - Gentiles are called to take part in Judah blessing! See Rom 15:27

The invitation is addressed to "all" who thirst, but who cannot satisfy their thirst. Yahweh, offers more than water. Water, wine and milk—symbols of spiritual blessings; we must take part in the spiirual adoption to enjoy such heavenly blessings. They are free to all who might desire them (Jn 7:7). The verse contains six imperatives. Come is used twice to suggest that one must make a move. Buy is also used twice. But the wine and milk are obtained without money or price. The blessings are costly; they cost Jesus his life. But to sinful mankind these blessings are a free gift (Rom 6:23).

However...I know many of us would be nodding our heads if it were not for Gal 5:24.

I wonder if the cost of this spiritual food has truly been consider by the CB forum?

Isaiah 53 is the basis upon which Yahweh can offer the vision of Isa 54 and the invitations of Isa 55.

A great deal of comfort is gleaned from these chapters in terms of our redemption and reconciliation with God through the Lord Jesus Christ.
 

ScottAU

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Purity said:

Greetings Howie

No doubt you can see I am building my notes and this process can take some time of testing and retesting. I should qualify in advance I am not suggesting this is so merely putting forth the idea at this stage. Have you given any thought to buying without money?

If I may test one point you made


Luke 22:42 - Did Jesus not break his own will and listen to that of His Fathers?

Purity

I love much if what I have read in your posts Purity.

I wrote this article a little while ago in regards to "buying without money."

http://thesinmuststop.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-blood-of-christ-ransom-not-penal.html



[SIZE=large]Jesus came to redeem us from ALL iniquity and make us pure.[/SIZE]

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Being redeemed means being ransomed.

G3084 - Redeem -lutroō
From G3083; to ransom (literally or figuratively): - redeem.

The Bible teaches that a Christian is both redeemed and forgiven. Redemption and forgiveness are two different aspects of salvation.

Col 1:14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

G629 - Redemption - apolutrōsis
From a compound of G575 and G3083; (the act) ransom in full, that is, (figuratively) riddance, or (specifically) Christian salvation: - deliverance, redemption.

Jesus bought us with His blood. His blood was the price He paid to ransom us from all iniquity.

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

A sinner is a slave to sin because they yield to sin.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Joh 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

Sinners have sold themselves into this state of bondage and their redemption is without money.

Isa_52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

The price paid was the blood of Jesus Christ.

Act 20:28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

Rev 5:9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

H1350 - Redeemed - gâ'al
A primitive root, to redeem (according to the Oriental law of kinship), that is, to be the next of kin (and as such to buy back a relative’s property, marry his widow, etc.): - X in any wise, X at all, avenger, deliver, (do, perform the part of near, next) kinsfolk (-man), purchase, ransom, redeem (-er), revenger.

It is Jesus Christ that makes us free indeed.

Joh 8:35 And the servant abideth not in the house for ever: but the Son abideth ever.
Joh 8:36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Set free by the blood and by the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

This is why someone who has been TRULY redeemed does not sin. The bondage has been broken. They no longer yield to the passions and desires of their flesh and are thus no longer drawn into sin. They are the Lord's freemen...

1Co 7:22 For he that is called in the Lord, being a servant, is the Lord's freeman: likewise also he that is called, being free, is Christ's servant.
1Co 7:23 Ye are bought with a price; be not ye the servants of men.

Previously being a servant of sin, now (having obeyed from the heart) a servant of righteousness.

Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

How does all this actually work?

It works through repentance and faith. One must first be broken on the rock of Christ (Mat 21:44) in order that the old master (Satan) be thrown off through the death of the old man (Rom 6:6) that we may go across to our new master whom is Jesus Christ. Thus we die (our old rebellious self serving man) with Christ that we may live unto God (Rom 14:8).

God sent Jesus to save us from our sins. Jesus did not come to save us in our sins. There is no salvation in sin, there is salvation from sin.

Mat 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Redemption from all iniquity and being made pure is the purpose. This is to happen NOW, in this life.

Tit 2:14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

It is the pure in heart that will see God.

Mat 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.

It is through the purging of rebellion in repentance, by which we have put to death our former life of rebellion having crucified the flesh with its passions and desires (Gal 5:24), that we can approach God boldly in a new and living way with a true heart in full assurance of faith and have our hearts sprinkled by the blood of Christ.

Heb 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
Heb 10:15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
Heb 10:16 This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
Heb 10:17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 10:18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

The blood of Jesus Christ purges our consciences of dead works that we may serve God acceptably. Our conscience will no longer bear witness against us for we have been washed and made clean.

Heb 9:14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:


[SIZE=x-large]THE PURPOSE IS PURITY OF HEART[/SIZE]​



Heart purity is all but denied in the church system today. A false gospel that leaves one in iniquity has supplanted the true Gospel of Jesus Christ. Satan is a master theologian and is very cunning indeed. Leaven has been introduced into the very foundations of Christian orthodoxy which has in turn corrupted practically everything which has been established on top of the faulty foundation.

A common error in the church system is the teaching that one is only set free from condemnation but that the bondage to sin still continues. It is a false message taught by a multitude of false teachers.

The basis of this freedom from condemnation is rooted in that of a fictional legal exchange propery termed Penal Substitution. Salvation is taught as purely forensic in nature. The doctrine of Penal Substitution basically teaches that Jesus swapped track records with the believer. God then punishes Jesus in the stead of the believer and God counts the believer righteous on account of the virtue of Christ.

If being accounted righteous by God was really due to a forensic transfer of the righteousness of Christ to the believer then John would not have written this...

1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

The reason for this is because a DOING would have absolutely nothing to do with it.

The early Church did not teach anything remotely close to Penal Substitution nor did they teach or even remotely conceive that the righteousness of Jesus is credited to a believers account. These are doctrines of men borne out of the Protestant Reformation.

These false doctrines completely negate being set free from the actual bondage of sin whereby one is able to actually go and sin no more.

True salvation has been subverted by a false notion of a forensic salvation. Hence the false teachers will state that you have an "identity in Christ" whilst you still actually remain a "slave to sin." It is actually not salvation at all but a Satanic deception which keeps people in bondage in order that they will eventually lose their souls.

Don't be deceived! Jesus warned of massive deception and taught that MANY would be deceived by a MULTITUDE of false teachers (Mat 7:15, Mat 24:11-12). Paul warned with tears of the wolves who would come in to deceive the flock (Act 20:29-31). These wolves would appear as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor 11:15). Yet they preach a gospel of death because they deny heart purity and being truly set free from bondage, thus they deny true redemption.

Peter also warned of those who would twist the writings of Paul to their own destruction and lead people away with the error of the wicked (2Pet 3:16-17).

And I am warning you!

Those who have been redeemed by the blood of Christ have also been purified. Thus they no longer have iniquity within the heart. That does not mean they won't fall short due to ignorance. What it does mean is that the all willful sin, which is sin that is rooted in iniquity, has ceased.

We no longer walk after the lusts of the flesh, we are instead led by the Spirit.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
Joh 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.
 
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Purity

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ScottAU said:
These false doctrines completely negate being set free from the actual bondage of sin whereby one is able to actually go and sin no more.

Greetings Scott,

Am I right to suggest you believe a person who is in constitutionally in Christ is able to go and sin no more?

Thanks
Purity
 

ScottAU

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Purity said:
Greetings Scott,

Am I right to suggest you believe a person who is in constitutionally in Christ is able to go and sin no more?

Thanks
Purity
Absolutely!

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
 

Purity

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ScottAU said:
Absolutely!

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1Pe 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

1Ti 1:5 Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:

Rom_13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Gal 5:6 For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which worketh by love.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

1Co 10:13 There hath no temptation taken you but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.
Are you considering the whole view of sanctification in Christ?

I know many Christians over the years have sought to remove the "if" from 1 Jn 2:1NET and maybe for some the judgement will uphold the "if" more than you or I would
like to deny or admit. :mellow:

1 Jn 2:1YLT
1 Jn 2:1KJV
1 Jn 2:1ESV
1 Jn 2:1NASB

Purity
 

ScottAU

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Purity said:
Are you considering the whole view of sanctification in Christ?

I know many Christians over the years have sought to remove the "if" from 1 Jn 2:1NET and maybe for some the judgement will uphold the "if" more than you or I would
like to deny or admit. :mellow:

1 Jn 2:1YLT
1 Jn 2:1KJV
1 Jn 2:1ESV
1 Jn 2:1NASB

Purity
The question I think you need to ask is what "kind" of sin is John referring to in John 2:1.

Is he referring to sin in a generic sense or is he referring to a specific kind of sin?

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John also states...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In Hebrews it states...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Thus...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is it possible that John is speaking of "sins not unto death" ie. unrighteousness which is not produced from iniquity within the heart but rather due to lack of understanding/discernment.


Something to think about.
 

Purity

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ScottAU said:
The question I think you need to ask is what "kind" of sin is John referring to in John 2:1.

Is he referring to sin in a generic sense or is he referring to a specific kind of sin?

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

John also states...

1Jn 3:6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
1Jn 3:7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
1Jn 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1Jn 3:9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
1Jn 3:10 In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.

In Hebrews it states...

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
Heb 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Thus...

1Jn 2:1 My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Is it possible that John is speaking of "sins not unto death" ie. unrighteousness which is not produced from iniquity within the heart but rather due to lack of understanding/discernment.


Something to think about.

The Bible teaching is still consistent with Rom 6:23 and Rom 2:9;

The word "doeth" is katergazomai, in Rom 2:9 "to work out, achieve, effect by toil". EV, is from kakos, embracing "every form of evil whether moral or physical". The term does not relate to a sin that is committed and then repented of (called, "a sin not unto death" in 1Jn 5:16), but to the continual, habitual practising of sin in a way that disgraces the privileges of the Truth. It refers to the "sin unto death" of 1Jn 5:16, for which there is no recognition of the sins committed, nor any forgiveness sought. It speaks of bad habits, a way of life that does not conform to the actions of the Master. The same word is found in 1Jn 3:4, 1Jn 3:9 and John 3:20-21; John 5:29.

So your belief that a person is "able" to not sin in Christ, "at all" is not consistent with Bible teaching - in both cases sin is still sin, regardless of "our" definition, so your point here must be clarified in light of this truth.


These false doctrines completely negate being set free from the actual bondage of sin whereby one is able to actually go and sin no more.
The strongest case against this teaching is Paul very emotional pouring out in Rom 7:15; If I can draw you attention to his words "BUT what I hate"

Of the verb "hate" (miseo), Bullinger states: "usually implying active ill-will in words and conduct, or a persecuting spirit". Paul was not ignorant of the forces arrayed against him, in the weakness of his own flesh and the temptations which were inherent to his nature. He shows that by stating that he recognises what he "hates". He is active in his opposition to sin, and opposes it with an absolute disapproval. Nevertheless he must still acknowledge his weakness. Hatred is part of the divine character. In the declaration of His Name, Yahweh declared that He would "by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children" etc. (Exo 34:7). His Son hated the deeds of the Nicolaitanes (Rev 2:15). Similarly, His children must learn to hate sin and all its effects: Psa 97:10. David hated the works of those who turn aside (Psa 101:3) and "every false way" (Psa 119:104). We must therefore hate wrongdoing (Rom 7:15), iniquity (Heb 1:9), evil ways (Jud 1:23). A wholesome hatred of our own ungodly inclinations and tendencies will help develop the mind of Paul expressed in this section of his exposition. This divine quality opposes every natural feeling generated from "within" (Mark 7:21), and is the reason why so few delight in the ways of God (cp Isa 55:8-9). A poet (cp. Acts 17:28) puts the problem in the following metre: like, dislike, lament for what I could not; I do, undo; yet still do what I should not, And, at the self-same instant, will the thing I would not. It is the paradox of the spiritual life!


This paradox was not answerable by your post.

Purity
 

ScottAU

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My understanding of a "sin not unto death" is not a "sin that is done and then repented of."

Rather a "sin not unto death" is an unrighteous act committed due to ignorance, not disobedience.

Paul makes this comparison...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin Unto Death versus Obedience Unto Righteousness.

In other words "sin unto death" is "disobedience."

Which makes sense why John would state...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Those who are born of God are not in rebellion to God. Thus they have ceased from "sinning unto death" for they "keep themselves" by abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) which sets one free from the law of sin and death (you sin and you die, ie. sin unto death).


We must define sin according to the Bible. The Bible makes a clear distinction in regards to sin.

Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If there was no distinction between different kinds of sin then the Bible would not make such distinctions. Numbers 15:30 and Hebrews 10:26 clearly teach that presumptuous sin is very distinct from sins of ignorance. Presumptuous sin is rooted in rebellion to God.

I contend that the rebellion has ceased in those who have been born of God. A heart that has been made PURE (Act 15:9) by faith is no longer a heart in rebellion to the working of God.
In regards to Romans 7 have previously written this...

http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58384-romans-chapter-7-a.html#post922114
 

Purity

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ScottAU said:
My understanding of a "sin not unto death" is not a "sin that is done and then repented of."

Rather a "sin not unto death" is an unrighteous act committed due to ignorance, not disobedience.

All sin is disobedience.

Paul makes this comparison...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Sin Unto Death versus Obedience Unto Righteousness.
Scott you must stay within the context of Pauls argument:- Here is sufficient ground for making the correct decision, for a bond-slave of Sin is not merely a sinner, but one who is enslaved to the lustful demands of the flesh. In this verse the word "unto" is the Greek eis: towards. Sin is here used metonymically for the evil proclivities in the flesh, inherent in the condemned nature we bear. Such has the power to lead us to death, and without the intervention of the Spirit- Word, mankind would inevitably die and remain eternally in the death-state (Rom 6:23).

Those who obey the master called Sin (John 8:34), are committed to gratifying the lusts of the flesh. This may be manifested in a complete abandonment of all restraint (as shown in the world of Gentilism), or in a ritual observance of law ungoverned by the principle of faith (as seen in religious asceticism). Though seeming to be religious, such are actually serving Sin! In Col 2:20 Paul describes them as "subject to ordinances," being committed to personal sacrifice for the aggrandisement of their own religious achievements. Such, he says, follow "the commandments and doctrines of men" ( Col 2:22). James describes those who "seem to be religious" (James 1:26), but whose devotions are self-centred, and all their professions of godliness are "vain."




In other words "sin unto death" is "disobedience."

Which makes sense why John would state...

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.
1Jn 5:18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Those who are born of God are not in rebellion to God. Thus they have ceased from "sinning unto death" for they "keep themselves" by abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (Rom 8:2) which sets one free from the law of sin and death (you sin and you die, ie. sin unto death).
You need to define "being" born to God. Its a process likened to being saved Rom 5:9,10 note future tense.



We must define sin according to the Bible. The Bible makes a clear distinction in regards to sin.

Num 15:29 Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Num 15:30 But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

1Jn 5:16 If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
1Jn 5:17 All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

If there was no distinction between different kinds of sin then the Bible would not make such distinctions. Numbers 15:30 and Hebrews 10:26 clearly teach that presumptuous sin is very distinct from sins of ignorance. Presumptuous sin is rooted in rebellion to God.
There are distinctions but none of them change Rom 6:23 Not One!



I contend that the rebellion has ceased in those who have been born of God. A heart that has been made PURE (Act 15:9) by faith is no longer a heart in rebellion to the working of God.
No heart is pure while its residing in flesh and blood!

Your reference is once again a process Acts 15:9

As Yahweh was declared to be the "Heart- Searcher" in Acts 15:8, He is shown now also as the "Heart-Cleanser." Being the place from which sin emanates, the mind (which, to Hebrews, is termed "the heart") seeks for self-gratification, becomes carnal (Rom 8:6), and thereby at "enmity against God" (Rom 8:7). It needs to be "purified" and this is accomplished by understanding the Word (Eph 5:26), and the sincere application of divine principles in action.

O and while I forget the context of Acts 15:9 is the work of faith and not of law Acts 15:1 - later Paul expounded to the Galatians that justification results from an active faith and not mere works Gal 2:16 and Rom 3:20.

The salvation you are speaking about comes at the end of our faith when faith is no longer required 1 Peter 1:9NET

Let me know if the engrafting process of the Word is complete in you :) James 1:21

Purity










ScottAU said:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/58384-romans-chapter-7-a.html#post922114

Firstly Romans 7 is written to those who "know the law."

Rom 7:1 Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

Paul then compares the New Covenant with the Old as well as alluding to how yielding to sin wrought death (which he spoke of at the end of Romans 6). The wages of sin is death and thus under the law one is under the dominion of what sin requires
which is death yet one can be rescued from this state via Jesus Christ whereby one switched from one master (sin) to another (Christ) in order to bear fruit unto righteousness.

om 7:2 For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband.
Rom 7:3 So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.
Rom 7:4 Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.
Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.
Rom 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul then defends the law against the thought that the law is evil because it wrought death.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

The law simply brought the knowledge of sin and when men chose to do wrong when they knew better it wrought death to them hence (Gen 2:17, Rom 6:23, Rom 7:11, Jam 4:17, 1Joh 3:4).

The law was ordained for good because it points the way we should go but when we willfully choose to violate righteousness it is sin that brings death.

The actual law clearly clearly taught right from wrong and thus due to it being so specific (thou shalt not murder etc.) it made sin becoming exceedingly sinful.

Rom 7:13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

Yet even without the law of Moses death still reigned because all men have the light of conscience (Joh 1:9. Tit 2:11-12) and are thus without excuse (Rom 1:19-20). Therefore death still reigned before the law.

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Rom 5:13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.
Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Whether one was a Jew and violated the letter or whether one was a Gentile and violated their conscience all are guilty before God. Hence...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
wink.png


Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

The above is a parallel between the Jews and the Gentiles concluding ALL UNDER SIN. Whether one sinned with the law or one sinned without the law. Doing wrong when you know to do right is sin and the wages of it is death.

Just as Israel sold themselves into sin so did everyone else.

Isa 50:1 Thus saith the LORD, Where is the bill of your mother's divorcement, whom I have put away? or which of my creditors is it to whom I have sold you? Behold, for your iniquities have ye sold yourselves, and for your transgressions is your mother put away.

Isa 52:3 For thus saith the LORD, Ye have sold yourselves for nought; and ye shall be redeemed without money.

Thus the wretch of Romans 7 has been sold into carnality.

Rom 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

What the wretch does he KNOWS NOT (he is in darkness).

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is wants anything to do with it.

Therefore the wretch does what he wouldn't do otherwise if he knew better but he admits that the righteousness that the law speaks of is good.
Rom 7:16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good.

Thus when he sins it is not him (in a figurative sense) it is the sin that dwells in him.
Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

The "sin dwelling in me" IS NOT a reference to Original Sin. That doctrine was brought into the Church by Augustine in the 4th century. The "sin dwelling in me" is a clear reference to the "body of sin."

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

It is the "body of sin" that holds people in bondage. It must be destroyed by being crucified with Christ. Human beings become addicted to sin because the human brain is constructed in such a way that neuron pathways are formed in regards to the dopamine receptors and the firing off of neurotransmitters.

When someone engages in a pleasure activity whether it be sinful or not the reason they feel pleasure is because neurotransmitters are being fired off into the pleasure centers of the brain. When one engages in repeated acts of sin a "sensory reward system" is patterned in the brain and thus a strong desire to repeatedly perform the action becomes hardwired. Scientific studies into habits and addiction confirm this.

This is why sinning leads to bondage. No-one is born into bondage to sin. The bondage is acquired through long practiced habit and thus the nature by which one becomes a child of wrath (Eph 2:3) is something that is a result of an ACT OF THE WILL in YIELDING TO TEMPTATION. This is why the Bible clearly states that "we sell ourselves into sin" rather than "we are born into sin." When David says he was "born into iniquity" he does not say "iniquity was born in him," rather he is referring to being born into a sinful world of iniquity.

The Bible clearly teaches that sin is a CHOICE as opposed to a DISEASE. This is one of the greatest misunderstandings in modern theology and it is the root of much error.

Paul goes on...

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

This wretch is ADDICTED TO SIN. Like any addict who wants to be free of their addiction they don't know how to quit. Look at many smokers and drunks who quit for a time but fall right back into it. This is why sin cannot be defeated in the flesh. The solution is in the spiritual realm not the carnal realm.

Paul just reiterates his points here...
Rom 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Rom 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Rom 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

There is something "in him" that makes him sin. It is the "body of sin" which is addicted. It's not easy for someone to break old habits is it? Do messy people become tidy people easily? No, it is extremely difficult.

This wretch delights in his knowledge of righteousness. He really does want to do the right thing. He is very conflicted.
Rom 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Rom 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

He is also very convicted. He is crying out for deliverance.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

This wretch IS NOT A CHRISTIAN. He is a sinner in bondage to the flesh who is under conviction who is SEEKING deliverance.

His "mind" serves the law of God but the "flesh" the law of sin. The flesh WILL ALWAYS serve the law of sin because the flesh is the raw passions and desires and it yearns gratification.
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Paul continues...

Due to what Paul has just written he says this...
Rom 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

One MUST be IN CHRIST.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

It is the LAW OF THE SPIRIT OF LIFE IN CHRIST that sets one free.

Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

The law cannot set one free because it is merely outward rules and regulations and simply yielding to rules does not effect the root cause of sin which is iniquity in the heart by which one yields to temptation and gratifies the flesh. Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh (a flesh body with the same passions and desires we have) and RULED OVER IT and thus condemned SIN IN THE FLESH. In other words Jesus gave us an example of not having sin rule over us. ie. ye shall rule over it (Gen 4:7).

True righteousness is fulfilled IN US when we WALK AFTER THE SPIRIT.
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

You see the solution to sin is to die with Christ in broken repentance so that one can submit to God in walking after the Spirit. It is by the Spirit that we are QUICKENED to life and that OUR MORTAL BODIES ARE QUICKENED.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.
Rom 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

In other words when we renew our minds our brains become hardwired to God instead of being hardwired to sin. First the heart has to be purged of iniquity and made pure and then we walk after the Spirit growing in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ.



One of the greatest fallacies today is the Romans 7 wretch being constantly taught as the PRESENT walk of a Christian. Alongside the fallacies of 1Joh 1:8-10 being taught as Christian's being in a perpetual state of bondage to sin.

Lets consider it shall we?

Rom 7:15 For that which I do I allow not: for what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I.

Allow - G1097 - ginōskō
A prolonged form of a primary verb; to “know” (absolutely), in a great variety of applications and with many implications (as shown at left, with others not thus clearly expressed): - allow, be aware (of), feel, (have) known (-ledge), perceive, be resolved, can speak, be sure, understand.

In other words many people "want to do what is right" but they "do not know how to do what is right" because THEY ARE IN DARKNESS and thus KNOW NOT. If they really knew what they were doing they would not do it. Living in sin is pure insanity because the result is total destruction, no-one who truly understands what sin is wants anything to do with it.
Up until this section I thought you had drawn to some true points however it appears you abandoned your good reasoning for something else.

Rom 7:14 speaks to Paul (and you and I) as a slave who he is bound to perform a work which he hates. Being driven by a nature which is sin-oriented, he finds inevitably that he produces the "works of the flesh" (Gal 5:19). This is an inevitable, yet distasteful, service to a master who is abhorred.

I think you get this!

The word "do" found in this section (Rom 7:15-21) is rendered from three different Greek words, the meanings of which more graphically illustrate Paul's exposition.

These words are indicated "For what I work out (katergazomai) I do not approve; since I do not practise (prasso) what I desire, but what I hate, this I do (poieo)".

See the bordered insert opposite for a definition of these different words. In using the word katergazomai Paul admits that as a slave he performed the works of the flesh being dominated by the sinful propensities of his nature. He finds himself performing that which represents the desires of the flesh. Hence he speaks of the evil which he unwillingly does, the sinful acts of which he is conscious and which trouble him. Only the Master was able to live without performing any acts of sin, for he "knew no sin" (2Co 5:21).

This was a unique condition only achieved because "the Father was with him" (John 16:32) inasmuch as the divine conception of the Holy Spirit which came upon his mother Mary (Luke 1:35), invested him with a capacity to overcome. Such an unparalleled condition is not found in those born "by the will of the flesh". Yet it still required the Master's own personal application of the spirit mind, and his challenge to the influence of the flesh which he experienced in common with all others (Heb 2:14-17).

Thus he needed to "offer up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto Him that was able to save him from (out of) death" (Heb 5:7). Whilst all mankind has submitted to the powers of the flesh to a greater or lesser extent, a much heavier burden rested upon the Lord Jesus, for he bore the responsibility for the salvation of the race.

Purity
 

ScottAU

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All sin cannot possibly be disobedience because a disobedient act requires a purposeful act of the will.

If a babe in Christ makes a wrong judgement or say sets a wrong priority it can be called unrighteous yet not an act of rebellion. Common sense tells us this.

There are times when I have jumped the gun and made quick judgment, due to being over-zealous, when I clearly should have waited and taken more time to form a conclusion. Such an act was clearly unrighteous but it was not rooted in disobedience but rather inexperience/ignorance. There are times when I have let a task slip by due to having my focus elsewhere when I clearly should have balanced my time and thus been more thoughtful of my priorities.

It is in areas like these that we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as we more and more put on the mind of Christ. Thus a Christian may often "miss the mark" or "sin" so to speak without it being a "sin unto death" ie. an act of rebellion to God.

To go out and get drunk, fornicate or look at pornography is clearly distinct from erring in judgment due to lack of knowledge. One is walking according to the lusts of the flesh whereby the light of God is intentionally suppressed whilst the other involves a lack of understanding.

Also bear in mind I am not speaking of ignorance wrought by what we should have known because the Bible clearly warns about being willfully ignorant. God does hold us accountable for what we should have known, hence "his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge for they have rejected knowledge" (Hos 4:6).

Scott you must stay within the context of Pauls argument:- Here is sufficient ground for making the correct decision, for a bond-slave of Sin is not merely a sinner, but one who is enslaved to the lustful demands of the flesh. In this verse the word "unto" is the Greek eis: towards. Sin is here used metonymically for the evil proclivities in the flesh, inherent in the condemned nature we bear. Such has the power to lead us to death, and without the intervention of the Spirit- Word, mankind would inevitably die and remain eternally in the death-state (Rom 6:23).

Those who obey the master called Sin (John 8:34), are committed to gratifying the lusts of the flesh. This may be manifested in a complete abandonment of all restraint (as shown in the world of Gentilism), or in a ritual observance of law ungoverned by the principle of faith (as seen in religious asceticism). Though seeming to be religious, such are actually serving Sin! In Col 2:20 Paul describes them as "subject to ordinances," being committed to personal sacrifice for the aggrandisement of their own religious achievements. Such, he says, follow "the commandments and doctrines of men" ( Col 2:22). James describes those who "seem to be religious" (James 1:26), but whose devotions are self-centred, and all their professions of godliness are "vain."
I completely agree with you here. But how do such things statement negate "sin unto death" being "disobedience to righteousness" ?

James wrote this...

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

A very simple statement. There is a subjective understanding of sin being the "violation of conscience" ie. "what is not of faith is sin" (Rom 14:23).

Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who comes into the world (Joh 1:9) and the grace of God that brings salvation, the grace that teaches, has appeared to all men (Tit 2:11-12). Thus God has already provided a measure of light to all men WITHOUT indwelling them with the Holy Spirit.

Men are perfectly capable of yielding to God if they so choose as they are perfectly capable to remain in rebellion if they so choose. If one yields to the light they have then God gives more light and not only that but will empower them through His Spirit to walk in victory and truth.

The issue with the Romans Wretch is that he sought reformation of his character by adherance to the law which is but a shadow of Jesus Christ. It is in abiding in the source of the shadow which is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (which is available to all men) where victory over the lusts of the flesh is found. Hence we die to the law through the body of Christ to bring forth fruit unto God.

I am pretty sure you understand these things.

You write this...

No heart is pure while its residing in flesh and blood!
I am not quite sure what you mean here because of what you wrote afterwards. Are you saying that "heart purity" is impossible in this life?

You say this...

Your reference is once again a process Acts 15:9

As Yahweh was declared to be the "Heart- Searcher" in Acts 15:8, He is shown now also as the "Heart-Cleanser." Being the place from which sin emanates, the mind (which, to Hebrews, is termed "the heart") seeks for self-gratification, becomes carnal (Rom 8:6), and thereby at "enmity against God" (Rom 8:7). It needs to be "purified" and this is accomplished by understanding the Word (Eph 5:26), and the sincere application of divine principles in action.

O and while I forget the context of Acts 15:9 is the work of faith and not of law Acts 15:1 - later Paul expounded to the Galatians that justification results from an active faith and not mere works Gal 2:16 and Rom 3:20.

The salvation you are speaking about comes at the end of our faith when faith is no longer required 1 Peter 1:9NET

Let me know if the engrafting process of the Word is complete in you :) James 1:21
If we take Acts 15:9 in conjuntion with 1Pet 1:22 which says this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We see that a "babe in Christ" (1Pet 2:2) has indeed been made clean via their submission to the truth. So whilst I clearly agree with you that there is a "process of purifying" there is also a "purity" which already exists in a genuine follower of Christ.

The purity which exists in a Christian is a "heart without guile." In other words the heart is "yielded to truth" and is thus "teachable." There is no rebellion.

So while there is much to learn for a babe in Christ and there are things that indeed need to be corrected, iniquity within the heart has already been dealt with in the initial conversion and quickening experience. Hence a genuine Christian's eye is SINGLEY focused on God as opposed to being in a double-minded state vainly attempting to serve two masters.

It appears to me that any disagreement is semantic in nature which gives me reason to be more careful with my words for language is but a means to communicate a mental picture to another and it can be quite easy for the mental picture to become skewed in translation.

I tend to agree wholeheartedly with most of what you have written with certain reservation which are probably due to semantics.


You write,

The word "do" found in this section (Rom 7:15-21) is rendered from three different Greek words, the meanings of which more graphically illustrate Paul's exposition.

These words are indicated "For what I work out (katergazomai) I do not approve; since I do not practise (prasso) what I desire, but what I hate, this I do (poieo)".

See the bordered insert opposite for a definition of these different words. In using the word katergazomai Paul admits that as a slave he performed the works of the flesh being dominated by the sinful propensities of his nature. He finds himself performing that which represents the desires of the flesh. Hence he speaks of the evil which he unwillingly does, the sinful acts of which he is conscious and which trouble him. Only the Master was able to live without performing any acts of sin, for he "knew no sin" (2Co 5:21).
I find this interesting in regards to the word "do" and I am going to dig into this and reflect on it.

Yet I find it very troubling that one assert that the Romans wretch is the "present walk of a Christian" because the wretch is "carnal and sold under sin" and is crying out to be delivered whilst a Christian has been "set free from sin" and is not carnal. Romans 8:2 clearly states that we are set free from the law of sin and death via the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. The wretch is not IN the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ.

Thus...

"For what I work out (katergazomai) I do not approve; since I do not practise (prasso) what I desire, but what I hate, this I do (poieo)".

Is still within the context of a man "under the law" who is "carnal and sold under sin" who is battling sin in the flesh yet is under strong conviction. Those who have been raised up with Christ, quickened together with Him, where all things have been made new and old things have passed away are not wretches. They are new creations in Christ.

The wretch is still enslaved to sin. Sin is his master, thus while he does not want to obey this master he is under a strong comnpulsion to do so because he has not crucified the flesh. One cannot simply stop sinning by making a "decision" apart from being utterly broken in godly sorrow and repentance. The old man MUST die. The body of sin MUST be destroyed once and for all. The wretch is still alive to sin and therefore still needs to be delivered via Jesus Christ.

Paul is teaching that the law in and of itself cannot set one free from sin.


Is not this passage...

Heb 5:7 Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared;
Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

...teaching that Jesus "learned submission of the flesh to the Spirit" by becoming a human being? Jesus in the flesh was totally dependent on being plugged into that which is above in order to overcome the draw to walk like a beast. Is that not what that passage is teaching?

That Jesus was demonstrating to us the METHOD by which we are to overcome the world?

Thus by following in the steps of Christ He becomes the author of our own salvation. It is in receiving with meekness the implanted word that our souls are saved for we yield ourselves over to the working of God IN us.

We are made the righteousness of God IN Christ for we are not only saved by His death (sin offering whereby we are cleansed of defilement) but we are also saved by His life (walking in the Spirit of His life).
 

Purity

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ScottAU said:
All sin cannot possibly be disobedience because a disobedient act requires a purposeful act of the will.
Go and study Romans 3:23 all possess sin's flesh (even Jesus) as per Rom 8:3

If you do not understand these two passages let me know.

If a babe in Christ makes a wrong judgement or say sets a wrong priority it can be called unrighteous yet not an act of rebellion. Common sense tells us this.
As per above

There are times when I have jumped the gun and made quick judgment, due to being over-zealous, when I clearly should have waited and taken more time to form a conclusion. Such an act was clearly unrighteous but it was not rooted in disobedience but rather inexperience/ignorance. There are times when I have let a task slip by due to having my focus elsewhere when I clearly should have balanced my time and thus been more thoughtful of my priorities.
All this is irrelevant Rom 2:8; Rom 3:23; Rom 4:15; Rom 5:13; Rom 5:19; Rom 6:14,15,23; Rom 7:5,9,17; Rom 8:2; Rom 9:15 and so on....

It is in areas like these that we grow in the grace and knowledge of Jesus Christ as we more and more put on the mind of Christ.
So here you agree it is a process - one can still sin until the end of faith.

Thus a Christian may often "miss the mark" or "sin" so to speak without it being a "sin unto death" ie. an act of rebellion to God.
To "miss the mark" is the definition of sin (full stop); whether this leads to death is on the condition of forgiveness being granted.

See Rom 6:19:

"And to iniquity unto iniquity"; The word anomia ("iniquity") refers to actions of wickedness. It is used in 1Jn 3:4 as "transgressions of the law" ("iniquity"), and is better translated as "lawlessness" (as in the RV). It describes the attitude of one who outrightly rejects the application of divine discipline. He may not discard the Scriptures, but he claims that its judgments do not apply "in his case"! This is described as "a sin unto death" (1Jn 5:16), for it is without repentance, and therefore lacks the basis for God's forgiveness. Under the dominion of king Sin, all his subjects participate in a state of complete lawlessness; they are absolutely committed to fulfilling Sin's demands in every respect. Therefore, the lawlessness continues to manifest itself in further acts of blasphemy and sin.

To go out and get drunk, fornicate or look at pornography is clearly distinct from erring in judgment due to lack of knowledge. One is walking according to the lusts of the flesh whereby the light of God is intentionally suppressed whilst the other involves a lack of understanding.
Yes but these things are forgivable are they not?

Also bear in mind I am not speaking of ignorance wrought by what we should have known because the Bible clearly warns about being willfully ignorant. God does hold us accountable for what we should have known, hence "his people are destroyed for lack of knowledge for they have rejected knowledge" (Hos 4:6).
Good.

I completely agree with you here. But how do such things statement negate "sin unto death" being "disobedience to righteousness" ?
God is righteous and His Holiness which is pure and peaceable is constant and never changing. All mankind is disobedient to His plain precepts, their unbelief in His Word, their presumption is all sinful.

You are complicating a passage which is very clear in its meaning.

James wrote this...

Jas 4:17 Therefore to him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not, to him it is sin.

A very simple statement. There is a subjective understanding of sin being the "violation of conscience" ie. "what is not of faith is sin" (Rom 14:23).
You are speaking about the end of his arguments in Chapter 4 and forms a general summary of the matter. Indifference to the rights of God or man is sin or a missing of the mark, which is the meaning of the word rendered "sin". (Gr. harmartia). Those to whom James wrote needed to recognise this, and reform their conduct in relation to all matters expressed in this chapter. If a believer knows the will of God, and deliberately ignores it, even in regard to future intentions he sins. Here are some supporting references to consider: Mat 7:24; Mat 7:26; Luk 12:47-48; John 9:41; John 13:17; John 15:22.

Jesus Christ is the light that lights all men who comes into the world (Joh 1:9) and the grace of God that brings salvation, the grace that teaches, has appeared to all men (Tit 2:11-12). Thus God has already provided a measure of light to all men WITHOUT indwelling them with the Holy Spirit.
Indwelling of the Holy Spirit does not assist with the nature we bare.

Men are perfectly capable of yielding to God if they so choose as they are perfectly capable to remain in rebellion if they so choose. If one yields to the light they have then God gives more light and not only that but will empower them through His Spirit to walk in victory and truth.
I agree.

The issue with the Romans Wretch is that he sought reformation of his character by adherance to the law which is but a shadow of Jesus Christ. It is in abiding in the source of the shadow which is the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ (which is available to all men) where victory over the lusts of the flesh is found. Hence we die to the law through the body of Christ to bring forth fruit unto God.
Agreed.

I am pretty sure you understand these things.
Yup.

You write this...

I am not quite sure what you mean here because of what you wrote afterwards. Are you saying that "heart purity" is impossible in this life?

You say this...

If we take Acts 15:9 in conjuntion with 1Pet 1:22 which says this...

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

We see that a "babe in Christ" (1Pet 2:2) has indeed been made clean via their submission to the truth. So whilst I clearly agree with you that there is a "process of purifying" there is also a "purity" which already exists in a genuine follower of Christ.
Correct but where purity exists impurity (and its potential) is always present.

The purity which exists in a Christian is a "heart without guile." In other words the heart is "yielded to truth" and is thus "teachable." There is no rebellion.
Agree

(More to come but it appears we have a limitation on the number of quotes within on post)

I started a new topic http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/18444-sin-unto-death-cont/ :)
 

ScottAU

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I still don't think you are making a distinction between "rebellion" and "falling short."

Blending the two together causes problems because repentance and the resulting death of the old man must be redefined.

If sinning due to ignorance is equivalent to presumptuous sin then sanctification must make an allowance for double-mindedness in a Christian. Thus you end up with a form of Christianity which is inclusive of those still in outright rebellion to God. I don't see any other way to view it.

While it is true that the sins like fornication, malice, envy, murder, porn watching etc are forgivable they are ONLY forgivable via repentance and faith whereby the rebellion is purged from within due to the axe being laid to the root via genuine godly sorrow.

An individual must be brought to a crisis of conviction where the ultimate decision is made to yield to God. It cannot be an temporal emotionally based state of mind which doesn't last, that is worldly sorrow.

The Bible says we approach God via the blood with a TRUE HEART and that means we are completely honest about what we have done and have basically come to agree with God. We realise the utter destructiveness of sin opposed to the absolute righteousness of God. We realise how out of tune we were to reality in our rebellion. Thus our minds really do change whereby the will to submit to the leading of God is born. The implanted word must be received in true meekness. The rebellion to God MUST cease in this process or it never will.

This is why Paul spoke of the "body of sin" being destroyed when the "old man is crucified." We put off that old life once and for all. Thus we switch from sin as our master to Christ as our new master. Thus we come to abide in the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ. It is this state of being in which we are set free from the law of sin and death. In other words it is through abiding in Christ having our eyes been opened with our old man put to death once and for all that we resist temptation to rebel and thus we no longer "sin unto death." Sin unto death is rebellion, it is not a mistake.

A Christian is a FOLLOWER of Christ. A Christian no longer walks their own way according to their own devices. We no longer live for it is Christ that lives in us and the life we live is by the faith of Christ. A faith that works by love, the same faith Jesus had. The energy of God flows through us whereby we are made alive.

To go an commit an act of rebellion is to forsake abiding in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ and turn back to our old ways. It is to revive that old man, to give the body of sin new life. It is no small matter to do such a thing which is why a Christian is to put on the whole armour of God in that we may stand.



To claim that "Christian's still sin" and include in that sin "acts of rebellion" is to completely deny what it means to abide in the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. Light and darkness do not mix.
 
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Purity

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Transformation from one nature to another (Isa 55:13NET):

Instead of the thorn bush will come up the cypress, instead of the brier will come up the myrtle... The transformation of nature is used to describe the radical change experienced in the life of the redeemed. The beautiful replaces the ugly; the valuable replaces the worthless; the helpful replaces the harmful. Happiness and contentment (cypress and myrtle) replace bitterness and sorrow (thorn bush and brier) in the lives of obedient believers.

It will be a testimony to Yahweh (55:13): and it shall be to Yahweh a name, for an eternal sign that shall not be cut off. Transformed lives will be an everlasting testimony to the name of Yahweh, i.e., his reputation for power and compassion. Those transformed lives will be an eternal sign pointing to the success of Yahweh in implementing his plan for human redemption. The sign will not be cut off, i.e., destroyed. Inscriptions lauding the achievements of kings fade with time or are destroyed by successors. The King of Kings, however, has a monument in each individual who lives for him here and with him for eternity on earth.