Actual Idea of Replacement Theology

[Davy]

You ever notice arguments about God's Israel vs. spiritual Israel when someone quotes the below verses from Apostle Paul in Romans 9?...

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

After the above verses, Paul starts talking about the flesh seed election through Isaac, Jacob and Esau. So Paul is kind of teaching this spiritual seed idea like a 'mystery'. One must pay close attention to the whole Chapter's Message.

Men's seminary doctrine called "Replacement Theology" came about obviously because of Jews born of the seed of Israel thinking their heritage is being attacked when many in the Christian Church began claiming that the Jews are no longer God's chosen people, and that God's covenants and promises have now moved to Christ's Church. What Paul said above suggests the idea of 'spiritual' Israel being what God's Plan is really about, not the flesh seed of Israel. There is no such thing as automatic Salvation based on flesh seed. All... MUST believe on Jesus Christ to have eternal life.

When I try to educate Jews about this, they only want to see me as a theft of their heritage because I claim men's seminary doctrine called "Replacement Theology" is an oxymoron, the idea simply does not exist in God's Word.

But the Jews still aren't going to like what I'm going to reveal here from God's Word about it.

Rom 9:8
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

What "promise"??

Paul was referring to the Promise by Faith God first gave through Abraham. Paul says in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that Abraham believed God, and Abraham's Faith on that Promise was counted as righteousness. And thus Paul said all those of FAITH have become the children of Abraham, meaning spiritual children through that Promise by Faith. That Promise is... The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

In Romans 9, around verse 23, Apostle Paul starts bringing in the subject of the saved Gentiles again. Paul even quotes from the Books of Hosea and Isaiah, and applied the portion about salvation in Hosea also to believing Gentiles, when God gave Hosea those prophecies originally only to the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" that He was getting ready to scatter.


The matter we are expected to already understand that Paul mentioned, is that "children of the promise" idea. That's about The Gospel like I said, the Promise by Faith. That's the "promise" Paul was referring to back in the Old Testament with Abraham.

That Promise by Faith is about The New Covenant Jesus Christ!

What? Some of you might say. Yes, yes, yes, The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that 430 years PRIOR to the law and old covenant given to Israel through Moses. As a matter of fact, ISRAEL was not even born yet then when Abraham was given that Promise by Faith!

Lord Jesus even revealed this fact to the blind Pharisees at the end of John 8, when He said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad! In Hebrews 7, Paul revealed that Jesus was the Melchizedek that met Abraham and blessed him, and offered Abraham "bread and wine".

So the Promise by Faith, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, was always FIRST, not the law, and was before the old covenant was given through Moses.

That Promise by Faith on Jesus Christ then continued THRU THE SEED, to Abraham's son Isaac. Then the Promise continued to Isaac's son Jacob, and then to Jacob's son Joseph, and then to Jacob's two sons Ephraim and Manasseh where care of the Promise still rests to this day. (see 1 Chronicles 5 about God's "birthright", which is about the Promise).

Jacob wrestled with The Angel, and Jacob was given the new name ISRAEL to represent that Promise by Faith, because the word Israel means those who overcome with God's help.

And people thought a silly thing like that name ISRAEL only means those born in the flesh called Israelites?

No, the word ISRAEL was always connected to the Promise by Faith first! not to the seed, because the children of Israel were not even born yet in the days of Abraham when the Promise was first given!

So then, just WHICH Israel are God's covenants and promises to under Christ Jesus? They exist where they have ALWAYS existed, under Jesus Christ Who first gave the Promise by Faith through Abraham. And that Promise by Faith would later be represented by Jacob's new name ISRAEL!

Then what place does the literal flesh seed of Israel have in all this? To them God chose to be CARETAKERS of the Promise by Faith under Jesus Christ! A majority of them make up Christ's Church today, meaning the lost ten tribes that were scattered out of the holy land first by God, and migrated mainly to Asia Minor and Europe and would make up the traditional western Christian nations of history, to include believing Jews scattered with them!

That fulfilled the Genesis 35 prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations". It also fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy to Joseph's son Ephraim, that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". This is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ friends! The chosen seed are supposed to be the main CARETAKERS of the Gospel Promise. God has not forgotten His chosen of the seed, but the idea of flesh seed is not His Salvation Promise. His Salvation Promise is only through Jesus Christ's Church, with Christ's future Kingdom of Israel to include only believing Israelites and believing Gentiles as ONE BODY in Jesus Christ.

 

[Randy Kluth]

You ever notice arguments about God's Israel vs. spiritual Israel when someone quotes the below verses from Apostle Paul in Romans 9?...

Rom 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
KJV

In the opening post of my thread, RT's illegitimate language use, I explain how the word "Israel" is skewed by Replacement Theology proponents (my opinion). Whether of faith or not, Israelites are Israelites. Paul talks about the importance of faith in determining who remains "of Israel" as God counts their legitimacy as citizens of a faithful community. But that is no different from exiling or cutting off criminal seditionists from a nation, as opposed to changing the identification of their ethnicity or nationality.

After the above verses, Paul starts talking about the flesh seed election through Isaac, Jacob and Esau. So Paul is kind of teaching this spiritual seed idea like a 'mystery'. One must pay close attention to the whole Chapter's Message.

This is how "spiritualization" of a Scripture passage works. The literal meaning is replaced with a "mystery," with a new "spiritual meaning." Israel becomes "mystery Israel," which is no longer literal Israel at all. I don't agree with this kind of "allegorical interpretation."

Paul was referring to the Promise by Faith God first gave through Abraham. Paul says in Galatians 3 and Romans 4 that Abraham believed God, and Abraham's Faith on that Promise was counted as righteousness. And thus Paul said all those of FAITH have become the children of Abraham, meaning spiritual children through that Promise by Faith. That Promise is... The Gospel of Jesus Christ.

The Promise was that Abraham would father a nation through his own biological legacy, and determined only through certain children. It was a very specific biological inheritance narrowed down to the children of Jacob. This did not alone determine who would be Israel ultimately--it just determined who the people would be that are called "Israel."

In Romans 9, around verse 23, Apostle Paul starts bringing in the subject of the saved Gentiles again. Paul even quotes from the Books of Hosea and Isaiah, and applied the portion about salvation in Hosea also to believing Gentiles, when God gave Hosea those prophecies originally only to the ten tribes of the northern "kingdom of Israel" that He was getting ready to scatter.

This is a misinterpretation of Rom 9.23, as I see it.

Rom 9.23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one.”

Paul is saying that now, through the Gospel, both Jews and Gentiles can become God's People--not that all ethnicities of Christians become "spiritual Israel." The principle Paul is using is that Israel's unworthy condition in a time of historical apostasy justifies God reaching out to pagans to save all, regardless of their sin condition.

If Israel was called, temporarily, "Not My People," destined for National Salvation later, then why can't God also call pagan nations to their own national salvation, despite their sin condition? At any rate, God is not identifying all peoples as "Israel," as I see it.

What? Some of you might say. Yes, yes, yes, The Gospel was preached to Abraham, and that 430 years PRIOR to the law and old covenant given to Israel through Moses. As a matter of fact, ISRAEL was not even born yet then when Abraham was given that Promise by Faith!

The use of "faith" as a criteria for who can remain in Israel is not a redefinition of the people of Israel. Removing dissenters and seditionists from the roles of the Israeli nation is not the same thing as re-defining them as non-ethnic Jews or non-Israel. Cutting Jews off from Israel may make them non-Israel as displaced citizens, but they can be reintegrated and become "Israel" once again, ie a part of the national life of faith and blessing.

Lord Jesus even revealed this fact to the blind Pharisees at the end of John 8, when He said that Abraham rejoiced to see His day, and was glad! In Hebrews 7, Paul revealed that Jesus was the Melchizedek that met Abraham and blessed him, and offered Abraham "bread and wine".

So the Promise by Faith, The Gospel of Jesus Christ, was always FIRST, not the law, and was before the old covenant was given through Moses.

The distinction between Christ and Moses does not cause Moses to be re-defined as Christ. Neither does the preexistent promise given to Abraham render those Israelites under Law to be re-defined as "spiritual Israelites."

That fulfilled the Genesis 35 prophecy to Jacob that his seed would become "a nation, and a company of nations". It also fulfilled the Genesis 48 prophecy to Joseph's son Ephraim, that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". This is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ friends!

No, the prophecy that Ephraim would become a "multitude of nations" simply had to do with the size of that particular tribe, ultimately integrating into it the 10 tribes of the northern Kingdom of Israel. Ephraim, in a sense, absorbed the other 9 tribes at the time of that Kingdom. And the Kingdom saw Ephraim as so large within that community that it was called by that name at times.

The saying "multitude of nations" has a flexible application, determined by context. That is how many Christian expositors see it--not just Jewish ones.

The evolution of Abraham to a "multitude of nations" does, however, refer to other ethnicities and other nations, united in the faith of Abraham. This union of faith does not, however, indicate that they all become "spiritual Israel." The Church remains a community of different "nations"--not a single nation. Peter's reference to a Christian nation was a reference to ideal Israel, as it is ultimately intended to become. See 1 Pet 2.9.

It is true that ultimately, the legitimate citizenry of Christian nations is determined by its true spirituality. But it does not mean that those who are rejected are redefined as another ethnicity other than the one they were born to.

I think that is a misunderstanding on your part. Though many Jews do not have faith now, and are not part of a faithful Israel today, which has yet to exist, they can certainly get there in the future. My view only.

 

[Davy]

In the opening post of my thread, RT's illegitimate language use, I explain how the word "Israel" is skewed by Replacement Theology proponents (my opinion). Whether of faith or not, Israelites are Israelites. Paul talks about the importance of faith in determining who remains "of Israel" as God counts their legitimacy as citizens of a faithful community. But that is no different from exiling or cutting off criminal seditionists from a nation, as opposed to changing the identification of their ethnicity or nationality.

Well, you obviously didn't really 'read' my post, but instead just chose an attempt to justify an idea of flesh seed.

What Apostle Paul taught was that Christ's Salvation is NOT about flesh seed. It's obvious you choose to not recognize what Paul said in Romans 9, and in Galatians about that, which both the Books of Romans and Galatians are foundational Books of Christian Doctrine. This is apparently why your above words have you going around in circles with a vain attempt to justify flesh seed.

There is no "spiritualizing" of the name ISRAEL with it representing THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST involving THE PROMISE first given through Abraham. That name Israel represents the name of GOD's BIRTHRIGHT. So it is apparent that you, like many Jews, are spiritually blinded about the concept of GOD's Birthright in His Word.

1 Chron 5:1-2
5 Now the sons of Reuben the firstborn of Israel, (for he was the firstborn; but, forasmuch as he defiled his father's bed, his birthright was given unto the sons of Joseph the son of Israel: and the genealogy is not to be reckoned after the birthright.
2 For Judah prevailed above his brethren, and of him came the chief ruler; but the birthright was Joseph's
KJV

What "birthright"? Where did it begin, since above shows it was once upon Reuben, the eldest son of Jacob? That means it had have been transferred from Jacob to Reuben at a certain point in time. It's also means that Birthright also had to have been transferred to Jacob before, at some point. Can it go back to his father Isaac too, and then Isaac's father Abraham? YES!

It is like I said, the PROMISE BY FAITH first given to Abraham is part of GOD's BIRTHRIGHT to the 'seed'. But not in OWNERSHIP, because the Promise by Faith is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ, and what man... can say they OWN that?? Instead the 'seed' were to be CARETAKERS of that PROMISE first given to Abraham. It was transferred from Abraham to Isaac, and included with it God's promises of BLESSINGS. It then continued to Jacob, and Jacob was given the new name ISRAEL to REPRESENT THAT BIRTHRIGHT.

So again, could the seed God chose to be CARETAKERS of the BIRTHRIGHT involving His Promise by Faith and His Blessings that go with it, could the 'seed' ever OWN it, like it was part of their FLESH??? Absolutely NOT! The Promise by Faith is of The SPIRIT, not of the flesh!