God Commands Righteous Violence

[Matthias]

“Some Christians don’t want the Prince of Peace; they want a prince who packs a piece.”

(John Fugelsang, Separation of Church and Hate, p. 244)

Mr. Fugelsang has a point, but I think it’s too sharp.

All Christians want the Prince of Peace. The issue is what his followers are to be doing during the interim period between his ascension and his second coming.

 

[Nathaniel]

How would you describe pacifism? Do you think of it as passive, doing nothing at all?

Webster's definition is as good as any other.

But as I stated, I'm not a pacifist. Which to me means that yes, I have no problem using violence when called for.
I made that prayerful decision many years ago when confronted with the unavoidable fact that the world around me was becoming increasingly violent.

I will defend my family and friends, and depending on the circumstances, a stranger in distress, and my immediate community.

I will defend my own life as well, but not in regards to my faith. If I am threatened as a believer, such as being placed in a position to deny Christ or lose my head or face imprisonment, at that point I will surrender to Providence and joyfully accept whatever fate awaits me.

 

[Matthias]

Webster's definition is as good as any other.

Merriam-Webster definition of pacifism -

“1. opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes

2. an attitude or policy of non-resistance”

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifism

Does the definition reflect the teaching and practice of Jesus and the apostles?

But as I stated, I'm not a pacifist. Which to me means that yes, I have no problem using violence when called for.
I made that prayerful decision many years ago when confronted with the unavoidable fact that the world around me was becoming increasingly violent.

Jesus and the apostles encountered the same hostile world environment. What level of violence did they use when called for?

I will defend my family and friends, and depending on the circumstances, a stranger in distress, and my immediate community.

I don’t think defending family and friends is the issue. The issue is how Jesus and the apostles taught and modeled for the followers of Jesus how to defend them.

I will defend my own life as well, but not in regards to my faith. If I am threatened as a believer, such as being placed in a position to deny Christ or lose my head or face imprisonment, at that point I will surrender to Providence and joyfully accept whatever fate awaits me.

The OP is teaching his readers: “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

I take it from what you’ve written that you don’t agree with his teaching. From your reading of scripture, do Jesus and the apostles? Do you know of any church which is teaching it? (I’ve searched and found only a few fringe groups that come close to it.)

 

[JimKnox]

To the OP:
Vlad was not Christian in the Biblical sense.
However: as the ruler of his country, he DID defend his country from an invading horde of Mohammedans.
His methods were barbaric. No doubt.
Has anyone in this thread ever read of the barbaric tactics of the Mohammedans who were coming to destroy Walachia?
It behooves you to maintain a balanced view of these events from over 500 years ago.

Bear in mind that America, ( a so called 'Christian' nation) literally melted, and burned to death, tens of thousands of people in war.

War is hell.

 

[Wrangler]

One of the problems I see with this idea of righteous violence (and there are too many to list them all), is that once I choose to take the aggressive posture, as opposed to the defensive one, I have set myself in the place of Almighty God as not only Judge, but jury and executioner.

It’s the other way, my friend. God has placed us in authority. See Romans 13.

So what do we do with these monsters? The just violence position seems to insist that we hunt them down as we would a rogue lion or a bear. And it's probably not a bad idea.

Yes, it is a good idea captured by the expression, bring them to justice OR bring justice to them.

I may even help you load the ammo. But I will not go on the hunt with you.

If it is a good idea, why won’t you go on the hunt?

If that ancient dragon can turn the hearts of those who serve the Prince of Peace to violence, it will be the greatest victory he has ever achieved.

I don’t think that one little bit. Violence is the way if the world. Always was and always will be for it is the foundation of civilization to have greater violent capacity AND willingness to use it against the barbarian If we are not to be overcome by the barbarian.

 

[Nathaniel]

i

It’s the other way, my friend. God has placed us in authority. See Romans 13.



Yes, it is a good idea captured by the expression, bring them to justice OR bring justice to them.



If it is a good idea, why won’t you go on the hunt?



I don’t think that one little bit. Violence is the way if the world. Always was and always will be for it is the foundation of civilization to have greater violent capacity AND willingness to use it against the barbarian If we are not to be overcome by the barbarian.

If you are firm in your convictions, then who am I to tell you otherwise. Get about the business of purging the world from evil. But I suspect that all this talk of righteous indignation and just violence is nothing more than that, just talk.

Many people, believers and otherwise, are perplexed by all the evil in the world. They want God to do something about it or they cannot believe in Him. Or they are as yourself, and make much conversation about taking matters into there own hands.

It is my view that Christ has already dealt with the problem of evil, upon the cross, and by the the giving of the Holy Spirit to those who look to His cross for salvation.

The problem is that most of us who look to His cross have refused to take up our own cross, as we were strictly commanded to do. It is no surprise to me that those who are unwilling to die to themselves are more than willing, and eager, to take the lives of others, and in the pursuit of rightousness no less.

 

[Nathaniel]

Merriam-Webster definition of pacifism -

“1. opposition to war or violence as a means of settling disputes

2. an attitude or policy of non-resistance”

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/pacifism

Does the definition reflect the teaching and practice of Jesus and the apostles?



Jesus and the apostles encountered the same hostile world environment. What level of violence did they use when called for?



I don’t think defending family and friends is the issue. The issue is how Jesus and the apostles taught and modeled for the followers of Jesus how to defend them.



The OP is teaching his readers: “You are not a follower of Jesus if you aren’t armed, ready to kill.”

I take it from what you’ve written that you don’t agree with his teaching. From your reading of scripture, do Jesus and the apostles? Do you know of any church which is teaching it? (I’ve searched and found only a few fringe groups that come close to it.)

I don't know how I could make own position any more clear.

As for the Apostles, I have no idea. Something tells me that if you broke into Peters home or accosted his family, you just might be in need of a physician, if not standing face to face with the Great Physician, but that of course is pure speculation. But this is the same Peter who according to tradition, chose to be crucified upside down. He died for his faith in the end, I'll leave you to fill in the blanks on everything that came before that.

I'm not the least bit interested in fringe groups or what some wackadoo church might be teaching. Sorry, I can't help you there.

As for the OP, I've addressed him in another post.

 

[Matthias]

Violence is the way if the world.

Yes. Jesus has called his followers out of the way of the world.

Always was and always will be for it is the foundation of civilization to have greater violent capacity AND willingness to use it against the barbarian If we are not to be overcome by the barbarian.

That’s the way that people who have not come out of the world, people who are not followers of Jesus, think.

 

[Matthias]

I don't know how I could make own position any more clear.

The questions I’ve been asking and you’ve been answering have helped me to see your position more clearly.

As for the Apostles, I have no idea.

Wouldn’t the apostles follow the teaching of Jesus in all circumstances?

Something tells me that if you broke into Peters home or accosted his family, you just might be in need of a physician, if not standing face to face with the Great Physician, but that of course is pure speculation. But this is the same Peter who according to tradition, chose to be crucified upside down. He died for his faith in the end, I'll leave you to fill in the blanks on everything that came before that.

Okay.

Have you read the Ante Nicene Church fathers?

As for the OP, I've addressed him in another post.

I’ve read your response. We can dispense, at least for the moment, with any further conversation about his teaching. Your response to him helped me to better see and understand your position. Thanks.

 

[Wrangler]

If it is a good idea, why won’t you go on the hunt?

It is my view that Christ has already dealt with the problem of evil

Not really an answer to my question.

 

[Wrangler]

It is no surprise to me that those who are unwilling to die to themselves are more than willing, and eager, to take the lives of others, and in the pursuit of rightousness no less.

Mutually exclusive in your view; only those who don’t die to themselves can be committed to DO JUSTICE here and now?

 

[Nathaniel]

Not really an answer to my question.

You've gotten all the answers you're going to get friend.

 

[marks]

But he will good sir. Odd for you to keep denying this demonstration. Jesus will end up killing more people in righteous violence than anyone. He's the Lord of righteous violence.

That doesn't give you the right to do the same. No, not at all!

 

[Nathaniel]

One final thought, and I'm out of the conversation.

As far as I'm concerned, enough has been written on both sides of the argument.

The world is an evil place. If I went about my day handing out azz whoopins to everyone that had one coming, it would be a full time job.

I already have a full time job doing battle with my own flesh that constantly wars against the Spirit of Christ within me. Choosing moment by moment which cross I want to hang from, the one on the left or the one on the right.

When I think of Christ riding in on a white horse to finish off His enemies once and for all, I do not think of some great battle in the sky or some other part of the world, Armageddon etc, whatever. I think of Him putting an end to the evil that still exists within my own heart, warring against my mind and spirit, no longer in control, but kicking and screaming with every breath I take to stay alive.
And I weep before my savior, because to date, that evil has not yet been fully conquered, and in expectation of the day when at last my redemption will be complete.

 

[Wrangler]

That doesn't give you the right to do the same. No, not at all!

What does give us the right to do the same; how about Micah 6:8?
8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to DO JUSTICE

 

[JimKnox]

What does give us the right to do the same; how about Micah 6:8?
8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to DO JUSTICE

You made a boo-boo there friend.
The REST of that verse says "to love MERCY and to walk HUMBLY with thy God".

Kinda spoils your point if you read the ENTIRE Bible.

 

[marks]

What does give us the right to do the same; how about Micah 6:8?
8 He has told you, O man, what is good;
and what does the Lord require of you
but to DO JUSTICE

Do justly, not commit genocide because God does. You are not Him. Something to remember.

 

[Wrangler]

You made a boo-boo there friend.
The REST of that verse says "to love MERCY and to walk HUMBLY with thy God".

Kinda spoils your point if you read the ENTIRE Bible.

Nope. Doing justice is put first and is not cancelled by any other word of God.

 

[Wrangler]

Do justly, not commit genocide because God does. You are not Him. Something to remember.

Who equates doing justice with genocide?

 

[marks]

Who equates doing justice with genocide?

You seem to be.

You say God will kill more humans then anyone in history, so it's OK for you to kill humans also. Isn't that the case you are making? Let me know if I'm getting it wrong.