I have only recently started to read the bible and I am now finishing Exodus.After growing up believing God is a compassionate God, I have been shocked by the first 2 books. The amount of killing that god has ordered to bring the Israelites to the promised land, has been staggering. He took Moses people out of slavery, Why did he event slavery in the first place.T he groups of people in the promised land can't have been all bad, why kill the whole lot.I expect when i read the Bible further I will have my own answers but for now there has been more killing than in a Rambo movie.
God is compassionate, or is he?
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Slipstream, you are touching on a topic that is one of the hardest for Christians to handle, and one that does not have one clear and distinct answer. Human suffering is a fact, and is difficult to comprehend. But it is still harder to comprehend when it is done with God's direct command.Perhaps one starting point is to recognise that God did create the possibility for evil and suffering, but it is not always he that executes it. I believe creating the possibility for evil as well as for good was an essential step in providing us with freedom of choice. Much of what we call evil is not God's work, but the result of other people's choice of evil rather than good.But, as you say, the Bible clearly describes God Himself commanding wholesale genocidal slaughter of entire nations. This was partly to preserve the purity of the Israeli nation and partly to protect it from the heathen gods and practices these other nations indulged in such as, child sacrifice.We can also consider the Flood as a gross destruction of life directly by God Himself!I think the heart of this problem is that we inevitably interpret God's actions in terms of human compassion and humanitarian standards. But God's objectives are not ours and we have to accept that we do not know His reasoning.What we DO know is that goodness, fair play and justice do NOT rule in this world. Evil and troubles hit people in totally non-proportional amounts, and Christians are not immune to this in any way. I think the bible shows much that demonstrates a compassionate God, but also shows much that His justice is rigid, thorough and merciless in its application.Just a few thoughts to set the ball rolling....
slipstream this is the question that lost my faith.I don't have much time right now, so I will give you an indepth answer this afternoon.But let me ask you this until thenIf God was a hateful GodWhy would he murder his son to save us???I seriously have to go right now 
I'll post more this afternoon. (Just promise your not a troll
)
I'll post more this afternoon. (Just promise your not a troll
(slipstream;38518)
I have only recently started to read the bible and I am now finishing Exodus.After growing up believing God is a compassionate God, I have been shocked by the first 2 books. The amount of killing that god has ordered to bring the Israelites to the promised land, has been staggering. He took Moses people out of slavery, Why did he event slavery in the first place.T he groups of people in the promised land can't have been all bad, why kill the whole lot.I expect when i read the Bible further I will have my own answers but for now there has been more killing than in a Rambo movie.
hmm.. well, yes, i asked the same question, or similar. Im currently on 2 samuel making my way as well, i hope to get my own revelation by the end of this year, i pray you will too. But to answer the question, just as kalixx said, God's ways are not our ways, and he is a higher being so we cant fully comprehend him. And also he did not invent slavery, remember the slavery came because the generation after Joseph forgot the ways of the lord, as always, it seems that when people dont have a guide, or something or someone that tells them what is right from wrong, they obviously do whatever they want and they sin. It's funny thought that they constantly kept saying, "why didn't u leave us in egypt?"... such "stiff-necked people" they are indeed- this is true. God did all these miracles right in front of their eyes, and yet they still go about their evil ways. Yes, i do agree, that it isn't fair to slaughter a whole group for one person's deeds, as so many times Happened in the whole expedition of moses, but I see it as God being as holy as he is- so even a simple sin or "blemish" on any action or commandment he urges the people to do will cause him to bring the slaughter to the whole of the group because they all followed the crowd. God obviously cannot accept ONE spot of sin on something he commands to be pure. If it has any blemish, such as the sacrifices he requests, then he has to punish the whole lot. It's just his way, i cant comprehend rite now.sorry i dont have scripture for this rite now.
I have only recently started to read the bible and I am now finishing Exodus.After growing up believing God is a compassionate God, I have been shocked by the first 2 books. The amount of killing that god has ordered to bring the Israelites to the promised land, has been staggering. He took Moses people out of slavery, Why did he event slavery in the first place.T he groups of people in the promised land can't have been all bad, why kill the whole lot.I expect when i read the Bible further I will have my own answers but for now there has been more killing than in a Rambo movie.
hmm.. well, yes, i asked the same question, or similar. Im currently on 2 samuel making my way as well, i hope to get my own revelation by the end of this year, i pray you will too. But to answer the question, just as kalixx said, God's ways are not our ways, and he is a higher being so we cant fully comprehend him. And also he did not invent slavery, remember the slavery came because the generation after Joseph forgot the ways of the lord, as always, it seems that when people dont have a guide, or something or someone that tells them what is right from wrong, they obviously do whatever they want and they sin. It's funny thought that they constantly kept saying, "why didn't u leave us in egypt?"... such "stiff-necked people" they are indeed- this is true. God did all these miracles right in front of their eyes, and yet they still go about their evil ways. Yes, i do agree, that it isn't fair to slaughter a whole group for one person's deeds, as so many times Happened in the whole expedition of moses, but I see it as God being as holy as he is- so even a simple sin or "blemish" on any action or commandment he urges the people to do will cause him to bring the slaughter to the whole of the group because they all followed the crowd. God obviously cannot accept ONE spot of sin on something he commands to be pure. If it has any blemish, such as the sacrifices he requests, then he has to punish the whole lot. It's just his way, i cant comprehend rite now.sorry i dont have scripture for this rite now.
(Letsgofishing;38542)
Kalixx this is the question that lost my faith.
Then we really MUST talk about this!
But let me ask you this until thenIf God was a hateful GodWhy would he murder his son to save us???
I wouldn't describe it as murder. If you consider what Jesus said in Gethsemane:"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." (Matt 26:42)I think this clearly shows that something was indeed God's will and that Jesus, of his own freewill, wanted only to fulfil God's will. Therefore Jesus went voluntarily to his death (just like the martyrs that followed him). And that is the way it had to be in order to be a sacrifice on behalf of the world. If God had murdered Jesus it could not have been a suitable sacrifice.So now we can ask what did God really want? Did he want his son to die? No, he wanted the rest of the human race to live!!!!And why was this sacrifice necessary? Because God's justice has to be perfect and without concession. We all lean on the belief that God will put all things right for us eventually and that God's word is true when he said "Vengeance is mine". So we can see the immense sacrifice and suffering that God ALSO suffered in requiring, in the name of justice, the perfect sacrifice of his own Son in atonement for the sin of us all. Nothing less than a perfect sacrifice could be great enough to cover all sin.But the sacrifice gets even more noble if we recall that Jesus IS God. Therefore God actually paid himself the price of all our sin so that he could keep all those that are willing to acknowledge and believe in Him! And in a way, one can also see justice in this because it was God Himself that ultimately created the possibility for sin, (although he himself never did sin), and therefore He has some accountablility for the suffering that sin caused (albeit for a good reason). Therefore God ultimately picked up the bill for it!Is that murder? Or is that the greatest, most selfless, surrender that God could ever make on our behalf?
I'll post more this afternoon. (Just promise your not a troll
)
Good
(What's a troll?)
Kalixx this is the question that lost my faith.
Then we really MUST talk about this!
But let me ask you this until thenIf God was a hateful GodWhy would he murder his son to save us???
I wouldn't describe it as murder. If you consider what Jesus said in Gethsemane:"My Father, if it is not possible for this cup to be taken away unless I drink it, may your will be done." (Matt 26:42)I think this clearly shows that something was indeed God's will and that Jesus, of his own freewill, wanted only to fulfil God's will. Therefore Jesus went voluntarily to his death (just like the martyrs that followed him). And that is the way it had to be in order to be a sacrifice on behalf of the world. If God had murdered Jesus it could not have been a suitable sacrifice.So now we can ask what did God really want? Did he want his son to die? No, he wanted the rest of the human race to live!!!!And why was this sacrifice necessary? Because God's justice has to be perfect and without concession. We all lean on the belief that God will put all things right for us eventually and that God's word is true when he said "Vengeance is mine". So we can see the immense sacrifice and suffering that God ALSO suffered in requiring, in the name of justice, the perfect sacrifice of his own Son in atonement for the sin of us all. Nothing less than a perfect sacrifice could be great enough to cover all sin.But the sacrifice gets even more noble if we recall that Jesus IS God. Therefore God actually paid himself the price of all our sin so that he could keep all those that are willing to acknowledge and believe in Him! And in a way, one can also see justice in this because it was God Himself that ultimately created the possibility for sin, (although he himself never did sin), and therefore He has some accountablility for the suffering that sin caused (albeit for a good reason). Therefore God ultimately picked up the bill for it!Is that murder? Or is that the greatest, most selfless, surrender that God could ever make on our behalf?
I'll post more this afternoon. (Just promise your not a troll
Good
I'll submit that even in the wars of Caanan in which Moses and Joshua were commanded to kill entire populations, God was still just and merciful. He didn't require death per se, seeing how death was mandated as the consequence of sin in Eden, but he expedited the arrival of the inevitable in certain circumstances.
Murdered was the wrong word I admit it. But I said it to prove a pointWell anyway your question was the topic of my blog ( how could that have happened???
) heres my entry. My specific answer to your old testament question is toward the end.--------------------------------------------------------------------------I went to a conference this weekend. And in this conference this was basically the slogan. " God is good all the time and all the time God is good." I heard a story about that saying once, a conference just like ours was chanting it over and over and over again. And a man rushed up to the speaker and said " God is good, try telling that to New Orleans, it just got completley destroyed a few minutes ago, and my family, my wife and two kids, are in that city"The problem is god is not always good. at this conference I talked to a girl who was standing at the edge of a balcony Thinking about ending it all and throwing herself off. I was literally ripped into pieces. Literally meeting somebody who was that close to killing themselves. How is it that we have a God in heaven who cares and blesses us everyday and yet allows things to get so bad that we think about cracking our head open from a lunge off a balcony. IIs God good, Is he love?? This is a question which we all deal with. This is the question which caused me to lose my faith. and raised my current faith.You probably remember the tsunami in asia 2 years ago. The one which obliterate several countries and killed several people. I remember seeing pictures of the countries which were struck. And all you would see were houses after houses Just torn apart. Bussinesses ruined, cars in pieces. Miles and miles of destruction, until you got to a christian church.These churches had almost no damage. Most people thought "what a wonderful way to spread Gods word." I thought " How could God kill all those people just to show off some churches." I started to dbout.After that New Orleans happened, genocides started in darfur ect.. I finally realized the havok of the world and all I could think was " That it was the judgement of a hateful God."My trust in God started to fade, than my belief. The God I was taught was a lie. and I was finally ready to be "set free" At this moment when I decided to give up God, 8:30 at night. I did the smartest thing In my life. I prayed. I asked God that if he was real and if he was love show himself to me. I expected it to bounce right off the ceiling and hit me in the forhead. It didn't.At first nothing happened. ten minutes later I was about to crawl into bed when a I heard a voice say. " read the bible" "Ha Ha that couldn't be God" I thought " there is no way that could be God he doesn't exist." yet I opened up my bible anyway. Right into the book of wisdom. The title of the book was all I needed to read. God was going to give me wisdom. That he did the very next day.I on the other hand woke up even more of a skeptic,. I could imagine Jesus smacking himself in the head and saying " are you kidding me, I spoke to this boy, and he still doesn't believe." so I walked into church. and I slept through the first half, and woke up right in time for the homily. It conveniantly started " most people have the image of God wrong." I grinned. The way this homily was going to go down is that hes going to tell the parish of how angry of a God we have ans therefore throw me the pitch so I could hit my faitth out of the ballpark. He continued " Most people think that God is an angry God, well I am here to tell you that God Is love. God had striked me out. First he talked to me himself, than he talked to me through his biography ( AKA the bible) and then he talked to me through a priest. All relating to each other, all way to coincidental to be coincidental. My problem was solved the mustard seed was planted again. For the next year I went through the bible to recover more of my faith, Therefore creating a stronger faith Created by me and God and occasionally a priest and not just by the priest.Therefore giving me a stronger faith. Why is this important. Because it shows the fulfillment of Gods promise. He was going to give me wisdom. a wisdom which I am sure will keep growing until I die. So God is Love, but How?? how can we have natural disasters, genocides, people being raped, people commiting suicide, pain, suffering. How does all this take place with an Loving God.example 1- Why do we have amputeesA soldier in battle loses a leg. How could God do this if He is love. Simple, he doesn't. you see we have this great but very dangerous gift called free will. and the definition in this case is If Al Quieda wants to blow off his leg they can. And God has to permit because not doing so would be a violation of our free will. This is the case for most of the catastrophes, the holocaust, genocides, murders. God has to permit, and while a tear probably goes down his cheek while he watches, all he can do is watch. The great thing is that the victims of these tragedies are blessed. Read the beatitudes( mathew 5: 5-12, The persecuted will be blessed), God says it personally.He will be blessed on earth and in the afterlife. and heaven is eternal happiness, can you imagine wat a blessing is in heaven??? I know I can't.example 2- why do we have amputees part 2different scenario, a construction worker is working on the job when his leg gets crushed by a falling pillar of steel . The doctor has to amputate his leg. This is a horrble accident not caused by humans.( the machinery broke down.) Thsi obviously has to be in Gods will. Why does he let his leg be amputated then, because in every negative theres a positive. The machinery will be fixed, his family and friends will be inspired by his strength, the amputee will have his faith grow by getting through this. And he too will be blessed.example 3- old testamentIt is a fact that God orders the isrealites to kill more people than you find getting killed in Rambo. but why??? Becuase while we have a loving God he aint no hippy. Most of us agree that ww2 was a war which needed to be fought. and even though we lost millions of people imagine what we would of lost in a worldwide holocaust. It is the same in the old testament, If God hadn't proclaimed war on the people on the pagan nations. The world would have been worse off than it had before. and the fact is War was the only way. Could Hitler haev had a change of heart. I dbout it, he had himself shut off to God. And the only way to stop him was war. Again the same in the old testement.So the moral of the story God is Good and God is love. and we live in a world where the very opposite is true. Where death reigns instead of life. Where hate is breeded instead of life. And God has to take unpleasant actions so things can turn out the way he wants them. And the way he wants them is the way we want them.God knows whats best. His ways are higher than our ways. God is love, learn this truth, believe this truth. AND IF YOU EVER DOUBT GODS LOVE TAKE A LOOK AT WHAT HE ENDURED ON THE CROSS. IT IS AN IMPOSSIBILITY FOR HIM NOT TO BE LOVEGod bless youYour brother in christ Ryan Fitz
(slipstream;38518)
I have only recently started to read the bible and I am now finishing Exodus.After growing up believing God is a compassionate God, I have been shocked by the first 2 books. The amount of killing that god has ordered to bring the Israelites to the promised land, has been staggering. He took Moses people out of slavery, Why did he event slavery in the first place.T he groups of people in the promised land can't have been all bad, why kill the whole lot.I expect when i read the Bible further I will have my own answers but for now there has been more killing than in a Rambo movie.
One thing most people miss here is there was a second influx of fallen Angels after the flood many of these fallen angels and there off spring settled in these lands and started pagan religions of human sacrafice and other abominations to God for Gods plan of salvation to suceed these pagan religions and beliefs had to be gotten rid of. And remember that death has a different context to God than to humans. For him its sending them home to him. To be abent from the body is to be present with the Lord.PSWhen you get to Joshua notice how large the grape clusters are these people were giants that is the off spring of Fallen Angels and the daughters of men.
I have only recently started to read the bible and I am now finishing Exodus.After growing up believing God is a compassionate God, I have been shocked by the first 2 books. The amount of killing that god has ordered to bring the Israelites to the promised land, has been staggering. He took Moses people out of slavery, Why did he event slavery in the first place.T he groups of people in the promised land can't have been all bad, why kill the whole lot.I expect when i read the Bible further I will have my own answers but for now there has been more killing than in a Rambo movie.
One thing most people miss here is there was a second influx of fallen Angels after the flood many of these fallen angels and there off spring settled in these lands and started pagan religions of human sacrafice and other abominations to God for Gods plan of salvation to suceed these pagan religions and beliefs had to be gotten rid of. And remember that death has a different context to God than to humans. For him its sending them home to him. To be abent from the body is to be present with the Lord.PSWhen you get to Joshua notice how large the grape clusters are these people were giants that is the off spring of Fallen Angels and the daughters of men.
Thanks very much for all your thoughts, they have been a great help.I know I will find the answers by further reading of the bible.Its not to you start reading the bible that you learn that the story's you have been told about in the Bible are only set pieces, like Noah and the flood, moses leading his people to the holy land etc.Its not to you start to read the Bible itself that you really begin know and to find out. That when all the question in your head start.I know there is a reason God lets these things happen. Its just working out why.I had a Stroke at 46 and I never once blamed him , i have alway knew their was a reason for it, and one day i might realize what it is.As I said I'm only recently decided that its about time I read the Bible and I upto the end of Exodus, so lots still to learn.I don't know why it taken me all these years to read it, properly because I was not bought up in a church environment and had to find my own way.Thanks again. Roger
Well Roger, a lot of people tend to stray away from this sort of thing, and particularly a lot of churches don't like to touch this topic at all.If it was divinely ordained for people to be killed - women and children sometimes included - there was a reason behind it. Matthew 10:28
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The problem is, we humans see this life from only our perspective. Murder is indeed a horrible thing, and the Bible attests to this back in Genesis. It also defines murder as lying in wait and killing without cause. However, our God is a righteous God and these people were killed for a reason. What they were doing endangered the second death, the one that matters a whole lot more. Some of these killed would never have had a chance to know the truth, but because of what happened they will. Others were so evil that they only would have corrupted more.Some comments in this thread bother me a bit, but I don't think they were quite written for what they meant to expose. Our God, Our Father, felt this pain to when he died on the cross. He felt it and a whole lot more as he carried the weight of all of our sins so that we could live if we just believe! I think he has a say in who lives and who dies.
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
The problem is, we humans see this life from only our perspective. Murder is indeed a horrible thing, and the Bible attests to this back in Genesis. It also defines murder as lying in wait and killing without cause. However, our God is a righteous God and these people were killed for a reason. What they were doing endangered the second death, the one that matters a whole lot more. Some of these killed would never have had a chance to know the truth, but because of what happened they will. Others were so evil that they only would have corrupted more.Some comments in this thread bother me a bit, but I don't think they were quite written for what they meant to expose. Our God, Our Father, felt this pain to when he died on the cross. He felt it and a whole lot more as he carried the weight of all of our sins so that we could live if we just believe! I think he has a say in who lives and who dies.
(Denver;38637)
Some comments in this thread bother me a bit, but I don't think they were quite written for what they meant to expose.
I would be interested to hear what in particular here bothers you. It is an important topic and I would value your insight.
Some comments in this thread bother me a bit, but I don't think they were quite written for what they meant to expose.
I would be interested to hear what in particular here bothers you. It is an important topic and I would value your insight.
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