God vs government

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Ruth

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There will be a time when all men stand before God... Will He say "did you stand against evil?"

No...God will say did you love your enemy, pray that That the your enemy would be blessed, did you give him food and clothes, did you love him with kindness...did you help the sick, the poor, the orphans and widows, did you visit those in prisons?

Did you share the gift of salvation?

Did Jesus concern Himself with politics and and the ways of evil men, NO.
 

SilenceInMotion

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I know your church has no reservations about slaying unbelievers or
those that don't believe in the catholic church, that is certainly the
offensive even before the reformation, So during the reformation were
the protestants being offensive or defensive. I thought I would mention
it before you point to others behavior to justify your own churches.
Sometimes a good offense is the best defense.

And the Church has an entire letter along the lines of war and such. In fact, it may even be indoctrinated, but I'm not sure.
 

Rex

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SilenceInMotion said:
Sometimes a good offense is the best defense.

And the Church has an entire letter along the lines of war and such. In fact, it may even be indoctrinated, but I'm not sure.
Not only has your church been writing its own letters, it would seen they have been receiving some as well.

Todays news

4
hours
ago
Archdiocese of Los Angeles settles four sex abuse cases for $10 million
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013/03/12/17287553-archdiocese-of-los-angeles-settles-four-sex-abuse-cases-for-10-million?lite

Four clergy sex abuse cases will cost the Roman Catholic Archdiocese
of Los Angeles nearly $10 million, a law firm representing the alleged
victims announced Tuesday.

The
cases, in which settlements were reached ranging from $995,000 to
$4,000,000, allege that former priest Michael Baker repeatedly molested
four victims beginning in the 1970s, and that Cardinal Roger Mahony knew
of Baker's criminal behavior and allowed him to continue as a priest.

Mahony is currently in Rome helping to select the next pope.


not exactly the kind of people I pay much attention to
 

SilenceInMotion

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Your law is either with Christ or with the world. Make the decision, I would rather see the merely accused be saved then the guilty have an abundant life. Have tou even thought to look at your own society? There are many in it that deserve death; they are a plague to this world. And yet here you are, petitioning against a few bad apples in the Church.
 

Rex

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SilenceInMotion said:
Your law is either with Christ or with the world. Make the decision, I would rather see the merely accused be saved then the guilty have an abundant life. Have tou even thought to look at your own society? There are many in it that deserve death; they are a plague to this world. And yet here you are, petitioning against a few bad apples in the Church.
Anyone with a brain knows that when a firm settles out of court the settlement allows the accused, no admission of guilt, it stops the legal action because the accuser has agreed to except the offer of compensation and the accused gets to publicly announce no wrong doing or no admission of guilt. It protects the firm from the charges, and the inevitable of paying compensation when found guilty anyway. It's just a nice legal way to purchase the platform you make your claim from, "the merely accused"

In this case the accused has already done time "convicted" and it would seem the Roman Catholic Archdiocese has no desire to proceed with the other two cases pending. Knowing they don't have a leg to stand on they skirt the conviction and purchase the mantel of "the merely accused" in connection with the cases that were about to go before the court.
In 2007, Baker was sentenced to 10 years in prison after pleading guilty
to 12 counts of molestation against young boys. In 2011, he was
released with credit for time served.

Two of the now settled cases involving Baker were set to go to trial
next month
. A judge had said attorneys for the plaintiffs could pursue
punitive damages.
Inspite of your opinion that I need to be exterminate, perhaps like a Jew in German oven
There are many in it that deserve death; they are a plague to this
world. And yet here you are, petitioning against a few bad apples in the
Church.
The actions of the church doesn't agree with your assessment of a few bad apples, that is what has become evident to the world, the church has for years protected the imbedded culture of molestation. That's why they get sued and make settlements because the church administration was and still is accepting of the priest behavior.
Mahony is currently in Rome helping to select the next pope.
How many others in the conclave are supporters and or perpetrators of molestation?
As the catholic children watch for puff the magic dragons white smoke, you can all rest assured that boy buggering is merely and accusation and not the reality.
 

SilenceInMotion

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That's all you all talk about is molestation, molestation, molestation. And you can't even prove most of them are even guilty, you all just pretty much talk crap. Seriously, get over yourselves. The remaining 99% of the Church is what you have to speak on, now get to it. One would think after a while, a person could simmer up the maturity to put away that same ol' bag of fault finding nonsense all the time.

The reason you all aperpetually bring it up is because the Church is too solid. You can't attack it any other way. Anti-catholics are cowards, you all turn every single discussion into that because you lose with everything else.
 

Foreigner

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To the thousands who have had their lives shattered by the molestations, made worse by the cover up by the Church leadership, this is hardly nonsense.

Apparently the Catholic church doesn't feel much compassion for those it victimized. You have made that very clear.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Only 5% of all the accused have actually been found guilty. It is a pastime for others to bear false witness, raising your kids to act spoiled and lie for attention, crusading the media accusing the Church of being a haven for pedophiles when it's really just a place of trust that predators tend to put themselves in. It's no different then a day care or a school where predators are put in a position of trust.

This subject has nothing to with the problem of pedophiles, you all just start mudslinging when an argument doesn't go your way. Anti-Catholics can be anti-Catholic all they want, but don't go expecting to win a debate by sqeezing in a bunch of irrelvant nonsense. At least the Church isn't putting up express lanes for the death penalty, supporting homosexuality and being feminist in their philosophies, scattering around with the most ridiciculous of theologies and otherwise acting like morons.

I can find fault all day, but the Accuser is in those that do it. Satan, you see. I don't know if they teach you that in Protestant churches, perhaps somewhere between the lines of convincing people diamonds fall on church benches. You all might as well put away your anti-Catholic bigotry, because I'll bring the hypocrisy of your end to light really quick.
 

aspen

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Are you claiming that 95% of the sex abuse victims in the church are lying and bearing false witness, SIM? It is you type of attitude that perpetuates abuse
 

SilenceInMotion

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aspen2 said:
Are you claiming that 95% of the sex abuse victims in the church are lying and bearing false witness, SIM? It is you type of attitude that perpetuates abuse
It's better to be relaistic then be take part in a reactionist society, which is what this world is full of. Your 'prosecute them all' attitude is what perpetuates ALL issues. Because of that, the merely accused live in constant dismay at their faces being put on websites and the news, their lives oppressed by accusation.

You all sit here proclaiming that violence and persecution is not the way, on this very thread, but then when it comes down to it, you all cherish the thought as soon as pedophilia is brought up.
It's called hypocrisy, as you all propel exactly what you otherwise try to preach against. I'm so sick and tired of this subject, it's all you all can ever talk about. Ever. And it's dishonest and ridiculous. Losing a debate: bring up pedophilia, that'll get em'!

Take a good look at your own faults, and then maybe you'll be able to change your convictions in being more accurate and warranted, and having more value other then pretty much being worldly tripe.
 

aspen

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SIM,

The sex abuse scandal in our church is not a personal attack against you - as far as I know, it has nothing to do with you - so why do you feel obligated to deny it or minimize it? Are you confusing evil within the church with the legitimacy of the church or the truth of it's doctrine? If so, you are making a grave error, brother AND you are falling right into the reasoning of the vocal antcatholics on this board. We are followers of Christ within the RCC tradition, not rabid fans who must close our eyes to the fouls commited by our team.
 

SilenceInMotion

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Being realistic is not synonymous with minimizing. /that's also another rpoblem with those such as yourself- completely explode a problem and call anything else 'minimizing'. You are the one making a grave error, the Church is the only one being Christians about this issue.
Going around blindly persecuting anyone accused of something- you all need to take a good look at yourselves and your status as being Christians. Nothing quite spells being 'pawns of the Devil' quite like bearing false witness. Read the book of Job sometime, seriously.
 

aspen

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SIM, have a good day, brother and I will read Job tonight - thanks for the advice.
 

Foreigner

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SilenceInMotion said:
Only 5% of all the accused have actually been found guilty.
-- How spectaculary wrong you are: http://www.bishop-accountability.org/AtAGlance/data.htm

"Fewer than 2 percent of sexual abuse
allegations against the Catholic church appear to be false."



----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

THE MYTH OF FALSE CLAIMS AND ACCUSATIONS

OF CLERGY SEXUAL
ABUSE

Thomas P. Doyle, J.C.D., C.A.D.C.
March 2007 - Revised July
2008

1. The John Jay College Study reported that between 1950
and 2004 there were 10,667 documented accusations and reports made of sexual
abuse by Catholic clerics in the United States. There have been no similar
studied done in other countries presently reporting widespread clergy abuse such
as Ireland, the U.K., Canada, Australia and New Zealand. It is widely believed
that since it is accepted that only about 30-35% of those sexually abused ever
report their abuse that the actual number of clergy abusers is much higher.

2. The Catholic Church authorities have regularly
claimed that there are a significant number of false claims and false
accusations. This assertion is often used by the bishops and by state Catholic
conferences in their strategies to defeat any attempts at legislative reform.

3. No Catholic diocese nor any other source asserting
that there have been significant numbers of false claims has provided any
documentary evidence. In fact no one who has said that there are a great number
of false claims has even produced any anecdotal or unofficial evidence.

4. Some have claimed that the legislative “window” which
was opened in California resulted in a flood of false claims. In fact there
were about 1200 new civil suits alleging sexual abuse as a result of the
window. Of that number about 800-850 were claims against a Roman Catholic
diocese of Religious Order. The attorneys who represented the claimants
reported that there were only 3 claims that were false. These were instances
when the person alleging abuse was actually making a false report.

5. There have been thousands of civil suits in the
United States alone since 1985. The majority of these have been filed since
2002. Most of these end in settlement arrived at either through mediation or
through decisions reached by the parties and their lawyers. A significant
number of cases have been dismissed by the courts. None have been dismissed as
a false claim. All have been dismissed because of the Statute of Limitations.
This means that the plaintiff did not file the claim within the prescribed time
limits as set by the State statute.

6. Most (probably all) attorneys who have represented
persons claiming sexual abuse by a clergy or religious put the prospective
client through a thorough screening interview. There are instances when
attorneys have decided not to represent clients. In the majority of cases that
I am aware of the reason was that the attorney determined that the case was
barred by the Statute or would be difficult or impossible to prove for other
reasons.

7. There is a fundamental difference between an
intentional false claim and a mistaken claim. A false claim is essentially a
lie. A mistaken claim is a belief by a person that he or she had been sexually
abused when in fact that action upon which this claim was based turned out not
to be a sexual gesture in any form. There have been cases when people believed
they had been sexually abused when in fact the belief was based only on fantasy
or totally subjective perception. For example one person I knew of believed a
priest had sexually abused her when it turned out she had imagined the abuse
solely because he had looked at her. There have been other cases when an
accidental touch was exaggerated by a person when in fact it was no more than a
touch with no sexual overtones or intent. In nearly all of the instances of
this nature the claimant has been found to have some degree of mental or
emotional instability.

8. There have been many instances when the accused
cleric has denied the allegation or downgraded the report to a
misunderstanding. In nearly all such cases when a proper investigation is
carried out it has been determined that the report of sexual abuse was
accurate.

9. Conclusion





  1. There have been thousands of reports of sexual
    abuse by clergy in the United States. These reports span a period of more than
    fifty years. Although bishops often claim that there have been very few actual
    cases in their dioceses, when diocesan files are disclosed through the discovery
    process the documentary evidence has revealed that in fact, there have been
    reports of sexual abuse for decades.

  1. There is documentary evidence of the 10,667
    reports mentioned in the John Jay Study. Since the study was published hundreds
    of additional cases have been revealed from the same time period.

  1. There is documentary evidence available of about
    20 cases of false and mistaken claims from the same time period. There is
    evidence of three false claims out of 800-850 claims from
    California.
The information contained in
this memo is the result of my experience as an expert witness/consultant since
1986. I personally spoke with every attorney who represented plaintiffs in
California and have questioned dozens of other attorneys about false or mistaken
claims. I have personally been involved with 8 cases wherein the allegation was
deemed to have been untrue: three were based on dishonest reports by the
claimants and the remainder were based on mistaken
information.


http://www.richardsipe.com/Doyle/2008/2008-07-myth_of_false_claims_revised.htm


.
 

JB_Reformed Baptist

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SilenceInMotion said:
It's better to be relaistic then be take part in a reactionist society, which is what this world is full of. Your 'prosecute them all' attitude is what perpetuates ALL issues. Because of that, the merely accused live in constant dismay at their faces being put on websites and the news, their lives oppressed by accusation.

You all sit here proclaiming that violence and persecution is not the way, on this very thread, but then when it comes down to it, you all cherish the thought as soon as pedophilia is brought up.
It's called hypocrisy, as you all propel exactly what you otherwise try to preach against. I'm so sick and tired of this subject, it's all you all can ever talk about. Ever. And it's dishonest and ridiculous. Losing a debate: bring up pedophilia, that'll get em'!

Take a good look at your own faults, and then maybe you'll be able to change your convictions in being more accurate and warranted, and having more value other then pretty much being worldly tripe.
Words aptly spoken.
 

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aspen2 said:
Paying attention to evil is not going to stop God's plan for the destruction of the world rjp. It seems to me that adopting a conspiracy theory worldview AND believing that the world is going to rise up and fight against Christ when He returns is redundant. Conspiracy theorists are constantly bemoaning the death of liberty in America and the rise of evil totalitarianism - conservative Christians are constantly teaching that Christ is going to come back and destroy the inevitable evil world. Makes me wonder if conspiracy theorist, conservative Christians wake up in the morning paranoid about the state of the world and then go to to bed at night with the words 'I told you so!' on their lips. Sounds exhausting to me - seems much better to simply accept all the doom and gloom of a dying world and stop ringing BS bell every time you run into signs of the inevitable, right? Last time someone tried to stop God's plan for Jesus, he was referred to as Satan.
Your argument is born of a fantasy world of self-deception and defeatist fatalism. 'Conspiracy theorist' is a term coined for the purpose of denigrating and subverting the truth, to accuse of lunacy one who cries the alarm of treason and tyranny. It is a smokescreen and a tool of those who betray democracy and Christianity into slavery and lies.

The Bible always speaks of the recognition of evil and the responsibility of God's people to work AND FIGHT against it. Have you not read what the Hebrews were COMMANDED to do when they entered the promised land? They were ordered to kill and destroy every vestige of wickedness. Are Christians of the twenty first century just supposed to sit back on their Lazy boy chairs and watch brainless TV and believe everything the government tells us? I think not.

What is happening in America is no conspiracy theory!

It is fact. Are you living in the dark? Perhaps you are too young to remember what it was like to be really free! I do. I remember a time when one could travel to Canada or Mexico without a passport, when I could board an airplane only stopping to present my ticket. Today there is absolutely no aspect of our lives that is not regulated and ruled by Federal law and bureaucratic ordinance. Even the bed you are fond of dreaming on is manufactured and transported according to Federal guidelines.

Or perhaps you are one of those who believe that everything the Federal government and its media puppets tell them is true. One who worships the nanny state and believes that IT knows what is best for us. The harvest of lies begins with the media and the media says only what the government wants it to say.

"The corporate grip on opinion in the United States is one of the wonders of the Western world. No First World country has ever managed to eliminate so entirely from its media all objectivity - much less dissent. Of course, it is possible for any citizen with time to spare, and a canny eye, to work out what is actually going on, but for the many there is not time, and the network news is the only news even though it may not be news at all but only a series of flashing fictions..."
- Gore Vidal

The problem of course is that one must do one's homework - not live in a fantasy that all is right with the world and that Christians need do nothing because God will do it all for us. Rubbish.

I quoted several intelligent men in my post, men who knew what they were talking about and men who felt it their duty to declare to their countrymen and to the world those things that our government and our culture were doing wickedly. I think it is right to pay attention to these wise words and excellent men.

"If an American is concerned only about his nation, he will not be concerned about the peoples of Asia, Africa, or South America. Is this not why nations engage in the madness of war without the slightest sense of penitence? Is this not why the murder of a citizen of your own nation is a crime, but the murder of citizens of another nation in war is an act of heroic virtue? "
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr.

"last time someone tried to stop God's plan he was called satan."
- aspen2

Is it evil to warn of the encroachment of tyranny?

"The US government is the greatest purveyor of violence in the world today. War makes a poor chisel for carving peaceful tomorrows."
- Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr. 1966

Is it evil to declare that what is good has been abandoned for the sake of what is wicked?

Is it a fantasy to say that our government is leading us all into national disaster?

Such an attitude is spiritual debauchery of the lowest order. It was and is satan's task to confuse man and to twist the words of Christ and the duty of Christians to accept evil as inevitable. Is that really what is meant here?

Is evil really to be worshipped and accepted as God's plan and will for man today?

It is most definitely not. It is a lie of hell and the substance of cowardice to believe so. That is no conspiracy. It is a fact.

The latest edition of Billy Graham's DECISION magazine featured a cover story about Federal restrictions upon religious liberty. Books by respected religious Christian leaders are being published in growing numbers, every one of them warning and describing the methods of corruption upon our liberties.

He who sits back and accepts the loss of liberty as God's plan is a traitor to human freedom and the church.

He who believes that it is right and proper for America to murder innocents by the millions without justification is no patriot.

He who believes that the church should roll over and yield to moral decay and spiritual wickedness is no Christian.

and that's me, hollering from the choir loft..
 

SilenceInMotion

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Foreigner said:
-- How spectaculary wrong you are

How spectacularly full of crap that source is. Seriously, I've never seen somebody try to make a million 'alleged' and 'accused 'into 'they did'. People should be embarrassed to even show such adulterated bias so openly. That entire source is nothing more then a sad attempt at debunking what it calls 'the false claim myth'. It's redundant anti-catholic nonsense failing to realize it's being driven in the dirt.
 

aspen

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SilenceInMotion said:
Being realistic is not synonymous with minimizing. /that's also another rpoblem with those such as yourself- completely explode a problem and call anything else 'minimizing'. You are the one making a grave error, the Church is the only one being Christians about this issue.
Going around blindly persecuting anyone accused of something- you all need to take a good look at yourselves and your status as being Christians. Nothing quite spells being 'pawns of the Devil' quite like bearing false witness. Read the book of Job sometime, seriously.
Actually, I have mentioned nothing about prosecuting or condemning any of the accused clergy in the Church - not one word. All I have done is acknowledged the victims. So why are you choosing to say that I am 'exploding the problem'?
 

SilenceInMotion

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aspen2 said:
Actually, I have mentioned nothing about prosecuting or condemning any of the accused clergy in the Church - not one word. All I have done is acknowledged the victims. So why are you choosing to say that I am 'exploding the problem'?
Well how about this: Who are the victims? Could you say that all the accusers are victims?
And yet, that is pretty much what is done.

Have you ever considered that the innocent priests are victims as well? It is vicious and Jesus would be appalled by the immanent condemnation of the merely accused.
 

aspen

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RJP - I think you are confusing my lack of shock over the state of the US with ignorance. I have no doubt that the world we live in is over-regulated, which is different than it used to be when we were free from antibiotics, technology, refrigeration and living past 50. The conclusion is life sucks in a different way today than it did yesterday AND life is great in the same way as it was yesterday if you live in obedience to Christ. One huge difference between you and me is that I am no longer surprised by the evil in the world and I do not believe that yelling that the sky is falling or that the emperor has no clothes is necessary (and certainly not helpful) when in fact, it is obvious! There is nothing fatalistic about allowing the dead to bury their own - I am interested in the living. My business is to build up God's kingdom by loving others, not recording the ups and downs of worldly government.

To me, worrying, complaining, being shocked about evil in the world is like being in awe of a traffic light turning from green to yellow to red. It is an exercise in short term memory loss.


SilenceInMotion said:
Well how about this: Who are the victims? Could you say that all the accusers are victims?
And yet, that is pretty much what is done.

Have you ever considered that the innocent priests are victims as well? It is vicious and Jesus would be appalled by the immanent condemnation of the merely accused.
Most priests are innocent. Of course, it is horrible to be accused of a crime that you have not committed. However, I do not believe this scandal is about attacking the Catholic Church - it was brought on by sick/criminals who were acting in the role of the clergy. So far, you have only addressed the scandal as a conspiracy to take down the Church. Children have been hurt and their lives and spirituality have been shattered.