God's Favor?

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ReChoired

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Hello all,

Recently, I was engaged in a debate, elsewhere with several interlocutors, regarding Verses Deuteronomy 22:28-29. After much back and forth, this was the conclusion drawn, at least by me...? ...


a: The father keeps her, and no other man will ever marry her, (because she is not a virgin).
b: Hand her over to her 'rapist', or the one whom 'seduced' her, where the woman is to submit, under the contract of Biblical marriage, (Ephesians 5:22-28, and 1 Corinthians 11:3).

What is your take on this seemingly precarious predicament?
Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not dealing with rape - at all (vs 25 is about rape, not vss 28-29).

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.
 
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POI

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As I already made clear, this was written to the church.


Verse (1 Corinthians 11:3) instructs His followers as such.... God>Jesus>man>woman

-Jesus submits to God, but Jesus does not submit to man and/or woman.
-Man submits to Jesus and God, but the man does not submit to any woman.
-Woman submits to God, Jesus, and man; but God, Jesus, and man do not submit to any woman.


If you have not the Spirit of God, you cannot rightly divide and understand His Words.

I think I know what you are saying here... If I read passages, and conclude anything that my own "moral compass" does not agree with, than I must be reading it wrong. Or, I might instead be intentionally looking for "errors".

However, your statement would still be patently false, aside from the above all being in your favor. Why?

- Are we saved by grace alone, grace by faith alone, grace by works alone, grace by faith/works, other?
- Too many mutually exclusive opposing denominations
- Read the same passage to a group of believers, and they may not agree as to whether the Verse is literal versus metaphor verses agreeing upon the same translation.


Ephesians 1:1-2 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
¹ Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God, to the saints which are at Ephesus, and to the faithful in Christ Jesus: ² Grace be to you, and peace, from God our Father, and from the Lord Jesus Christ.


What do you think a typical believing household was like, especially during these times? From the onset, women were to be subservient to men. It was likely ingrained within them since birth. Why? They were not allowed to hold lead authority over men in church, and maybe even anywhere (i.e.) 1 Timothy 2:11-15. In the provided passage, the woman is told she was born (second), and also mucked it up for everyone. From the onset, women were told they are to submit to God and man, stay quiet, and serve their leaders, (which are God and men).

Hence, which brings us right back to the OP. A female single virgin was a "complete prize". Specials rules were then to be set into place. The woman knew she could not remain single, and ever support herself. She could not get a job. Her only options was to remain with her father, or be supported by a husband. Men would not dare take a non-virgin wife. If a single women was known to be not virgin, she was hosed.

Hence, the law was written, Deuteronomy 22:28-29.


It is not written to unbelievers who would treat their wives (or anyone else for that matter) in an ungodly way.

And yet, the woman is told to "submit to the husband in everything". I did not write these Verses. Apparently, God did.


This entire chapter taken as a whole


If it was EQUAL mutual submission, please explain 1 Corinthians 11:3? You have skipped this Verse many times now. I also explained what this Verse means above. Yes, the male and the female both submit to God and Christ equally. But the submission between the man and his wife is more of a one way street.

Ephesians 5 :28-29 (KJV)
¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯
²⁸ So ought men to love their wives as their own bodies. He that loveth his wife loveth himself.

²⁹ For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

The husband is commanded to love his wife and even to give himself for her. This doesn't sound like a man who would abuse or dishonor his wife by asking her to do something against the will of God (as stated in His Word). It doesn't give men a free reign to do as they please.


I already acknowledged this in the OP. I did not exclude these Verses (i.e.):

"Sure, the husband was to fulfill his role in the marriage, but the woman answered to the man. Two notable Verses to reference would be (Ephesians 5:22-28,"

Again, the woman's role is to submit. She was essentially legally oppressed. She was already aware that her rights were not equal to any man, via Scripture and the teachings from her believing father. Once married, I doubt there was any "I've got a headache tonight husband", if you know what I mean. :) Hence, her response was likely to 'agree' with him, whether she actually did or did not. For all the husband knows, she is a completely willing participant.

Scripture interprets scripture. You have chosen to pretend not to see, but I believe I've addressed every point and have done so multiple times, with many scripture references and if you (or anyone else) want to ignore it, that is your choice. I know you'll keep repeating the same hand-picked scriptures over and over, along with your preferred skewed interpretations.

Like I told you many posts ago, I could say the exact same things about you :)

BTW, I was a true believer for over 3 decades. I was raised Catholic, then later became non-denominational. I've been to many churches, spoke with many pastors, priest, ministers, etc... Like I have also already told you, there exists many things in the Bible, for which both you and I likely agree.

To add... even the Golden Rule (as brother @amigo de christo referred to before, states that we are to do unto others as we would have them do unto us. This supports the principles referred to in Ephesians stating that a man who loves his wife loves himself.


If we examine the "golden rule" carefully, via Matthew 7:12, you would be at odds with what Scripture states in places. Food for thought.
 

POI

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Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is not dealing with rape - at all (vs 25 is about rape, not vss 28-29).

Deu 22:28 If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found;
Deu 22:29 Then the man that lay with her shall give unto the damsel's father fifty shekels of silver, and she shall be his wife; because he hath humbled her, he may not put her away all his days.

Maybe you'll respond here, where @TLHKAJ has not.


If Verses 28-29 where only speaking about absolutely mutually exclusive premarital sex between two consenting people, do you actually think some Biblical translations would use the word 'rape'? You think some translations would be THIS clumsy with verbiage?
 

POI

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That may be the title of the thread, but while I have not read every post, mostly people seem to be talking about women's rights or the rights of men over women, etc. more than the "favor of God". I did not want to get into all of that so I only responded to the couple of posts I also quoted.

God's favor looks to be for the father and/or the male, over and above the female. When we explore the topic, as a whole, yes. --> "Women's rights" do surface :)
 

TLHKAJ

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BTW, I was a true believer for over 3 decades. I was raised Catholic, then later became non-denominational. I've been to many churches, spoke with many pastors, priest, ministers, etc... Like I have also already told you, there exists many things in the Bible, for which both you and I likely agree.
You saw the posts where I addressed the version of the Bible you have chosen to use. I gave one example of why I use the KJV, and that is because other versions add to and take away from the original. Those who produce those versions have an agenda to lead people astray into an agenda.

If you want understanding...... study ...take the words back to the original language and also look at context ...but don't stop there, ask Holy Spirit to open the eyes of your understanding. HE is the one who wrote it ...ASK HIM.

When I come across something I don't quite understand, I have a conversation with God because I have a relationship with Him. I tell Him what it is I don't understand, and then I ask Him to show me the truth. He will speak to the seeking heart. I have heard Him speak scripture to me in times when I wanted to be gone from the world.

His Word is quick and powerful and sharper than a 2-edged sword. When He speaks, fear begins to fade and peace comes. Holy Spirit will do that for anyone who places their trust in Jesus Christ. I cried out to Him to take me Home, and He spoke to me in that moment... "Your life is hidden with Christ in God!" I didn't even know that was in the Bible. I replied, "What did You say?" And He said again... "Your life is hidden with Christ in God." That was many years ago, and it has given me strength to walk through many hardships. He truly cares and is with us no matter what we face.

When I saw your post here, the subject matter hit close to home for me. I have suffered many things. So it was something I wanted an answer for. So I read the Word ... I read the chapter for context... and I asked Him. I poured out of myself, exactly what my pain was and my questions ...and I asked Him. He opened it right up and it's there, plain as day to me.

So often, we come to God with all sorts of blockages and walls. If we can't open that up to Him, but choose to hold onto our own understanding or our own interpretations that are based in wounding... we will have a very difficult time hearing His voice and receiving the understanding He has for us.


I've answered you so many times, it doesn't benefit to keep repeating myself. I don't see an issue with the 1 Corinthians verse. Again, these are speaking to the believers. Matthew 7 is actually a very encouraging chapter for me as well.

It sounds like your main beef is with God and some wounding you've received. You went away from Him when things were difficult rather than running to Him. I truly hope you can find your way back to Him. I have fully addressed your posts and you are stuck on a certain line of thought.

For whatever reason, you believe God is a monster. If you knew Him, your heart would know differently and the scriptures will come alive when you ask the Author for understanding.


“O taste and see that the LORD is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him.” — Psalm 34:8 (KJV)

I am praying for you.
 
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Marvelloustime

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Lily my dear friend . Since the word of GOD shall stand and by THE WORD the world shall be judged ,
let us learn the word well . Cling to JESUS and just focus on reading those lovely gospels and letters of the apostels
and other doctrine . It will truly build you up . You are loved dear sister . But paul was right
and so was peter . Both men put a heavy emphasis on scripture .
Paul said it , for the holy scriptures make one wise unto salvation THROUGH our faith in CHRIST .
So just continue to read the bible often . You are loved and shall be prayed for as well .
Oh the Lord be praised.
 
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Wrangler

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I've answered you so many times, it doesn't benefit to keep repeating myself. I don't see an issue with the 1 Corinthians verse.

'Not seeing an issue with the 1 Corinthians verse' is not the same thing as acknowledging that it goes against your notion of equality.
 
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Wrangler

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Maybe you'll respond here, where @TLHKAJ has not.

If Verses 28-29 where only speaking about absolutely mutually exclusive premarital sex between two consenting people, do you actually think some Biblical translations would use the word 'rape'? You think some translations would be THIS clumsy with verbiage?

Here is one take, the rape is not against the will of the woman but the man whose authority she is under.
 

POI

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(Part 1; due to the 1,000 character limit in response)....

You saw the posts where I addressed the version of the Bible you have chosen to use. I gave one example of why I use the KJV, and that is because other versions add to and take away from the original. Those who produce those versions have an agenda to lead people astray into an agenda.


Kool. So the "agenda" of the NIV, for instance, is to lead people astray... What does this mean exactly? And how do you know?

If you want understanding...... study ...take the words back to the original language and also look at context ...but don't stop there, ask Holy Spirit to open the eyes of your understanding. HE is the one who wrote it ...ASK HIM.

I've read the Verses repeatedly. Like I stated prior, many things sound okay, elsewhere. But this set of passages lead me to suspect God is in favor of the father and/or the male whom had relations with the single virgin.

Women could not support themselves. A rule needed to be written to protect the father from having to financially support his 'violated' daughter for life.


When I come across something I don't quite understand, I have a conversation with God because I have a relationship with Him. I tell Him what it is I don't understand, and then I ask Him to show me the truth. He will speak to the seeking heart. I have heard Him speak scripture to me in times when I wanted to be gone from the world.

Let's test this real fast... When reading the KJV (Leviticus 25:44-46):

"44 Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids. 45 Moreover of the children of the strangers that do sojourn among you, of them shall ye buy, and of their families that are with you, which they begat in your land: and they shall be your possession. 46 And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit them for a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour."

Does the Holy Spirit tell you that He was a-okay w/ the purchase of servants/slaves from around you, and to keep them as possessions/property for life? But, if they are Israelites, not to treat them as badly as all the others?

When I saw your post here, the subject matter hit close to home for me. I have suffered many things.


I'm sorry for your experience(s).

I've answered you so many times, it doesn't benefit to keep repeating myself.

The objective is for you to tell me why my conclusion is flawed. You have yet to do that. Once you do, I will no longer present my current position.


I don't see an issue with the 1 Corinthians verse. Again, these are speaking to the believers.


I did not ask you if you had an "issue". I'm demonstrating there exists a hierarchy, via the instruction from God. The conclusion is as follows: The male and the female both submit to God and Christ equally. But, the submission between the man and his wife is not equal.

Do you acknowledge this?
 

POI

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(Part 2)

It sounds like your main beef is with God and some wounding you've received. You went away from Him when things were difficult rather than running to Him. I truly hope you can find your way back to Him. I have fully addressed your posts and you are stuck on a certain line of thought.

For whatever reason, you believe God is a monster. If you knew Him, your heart would know differently and the scriptures will come alive when you ask the Author for understanding.

No more than my current 'beef' with Xenu, the God of Scientology :)

Maybe if I read it more, Xenu will finally reveal himself to me, like he does to so many others. I'm not trying to mock you, but please observe how disrespectful and condescending your response looks to me and others; whom do not have the same a priori conclusions as you :)


I am praying for you.

This response leads me to the conclude that you believe in intercessory prayer. Please pray for God to reveal Himself in a way to me, for which I can no longer deny His mere existence. This will not ruin my free will, just as satan, and a third of the angels still had the free will to rebel against Him. If I thought He exists, then I might be on your side of the table; rationalizing Verse for which looks to raise an eyebrow.

If you pray, and He never reveals Himself in a way to me, for which I can no longer deny His mere existence, does this mean your prayers go unanswered by God????

**************************

And getting back to the topic, here is where we are seemingly at....

You are basically claiming that Deuteronomy 22:28-29 is ONLY speaking about completely consensual sex between a male, and a single virgin. I disagree.

Thus, you will need to prove that the above Verse is ONLY speaking about completely consensual sex.

Good luck :)
 

POI

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Here is one take, the rape is not against the will of the woman but the man whose authority she is under.

Let me see if I fully understand what you are contemplating here...

The two, which had sex, was a mutual act. But if the dad finds out, and does not approve, he labels the act as his "rape against her" anyways?
 

Wrangler

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Let me see if I fully understand what you are contemplating here...

The two, which had sex, was a mutual act. But if the dad finds out, and does not approve, he labels the act as his "rape against her" anyways?

The notion of the woman being the victim is not part of the text. It is the man who has her under his authority who has lost as he SEXUAL MARKET VALUE has dropped substantially, being 'damaged goods' and all.

Her consent is all the rage today but back then, sex was supposed to be strictly part of the medium of transferring wealth to the next generation (aka marriage). Her consent mattered little.
 
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POI

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The notion of the woman being the victim is not part of the text. It is the man who has her under his authority who has lost as he SEXUAL MARKET VALUE has dropped substantially, being 'damaged goods' and all.

Her consent is all the rage today but back then, sex was supposed to be strictly part of the medium of transferring wealth to the next generation (aka marriage). Her consent mattered little.

At the bottom of post #62, I offered the following response:


A single female virgin is coerced, raped, seduced, or other. Heck, she is even seen crying out. Based upon the Bible, the resolution is as follows:

A: The rapist pays the father, and also marries her. Under the contract of marriage, the female submits to the male.
B: The rapist pays the father. The father does not also grant consent for the rapist to marry his daughter. After the rapist pays the father, the rapist is free to leave. The rapist can then possibly rinse/repeat with another victim
.

************

Thus, if the male defiles the female single virgin, the option lies within the father's hand completely. "God's favor" favor's the father apparently.

Seems as though the male pays the father, no matter what. But the father has to also decide if he is to force him to also marry her, or to tell him to get lost.

I guess it would depend upon if he approves of him or not? I guess it may also matter if the father thought it was an actual violent rape or not. He might not want to send his daughter off with a violent rapist.

But yes, it looks like we are on the same page. If God inspired these verses, God was looking out for the father, above all else.

1. On a side note, what if the father opted for option B) above? Couldn't the man just keep looking for new female single virgins, and keep raping until he secured a possible 'marriage' with a women he really liked? The reason I ask, is maybe the male is very unpleasing to most/all women.

2. On another note, wasn't God concerned that this law was open for the completely undesirable men to secure women, whom would otherwise be out of their league? And these women would also have to submit to them for the rest of their lives?
 

TLHKAJ

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'Not seeing an issue with the 1 Corinthians verse' is not the same thing as acknowledging that it goes against your notion of equality.
Jesus Christ Himself has a head ....God the Father. And yet, He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Philippians 2:2-7 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ² Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind. ³ Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves. ⁴ Look not every man on his own things, but every man also on the things of others. ⁵ Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: ⁶ Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: ⁷ But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:


We are all equal.

“There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.” — Galatians 3:28 (KJV)

Having differing roles doesn't make someone's worth less, nor even is their role of less importance. As a wife and mother, or as a sister in Christ, I have value and a role that cannot be filled by a male. We all are part of the body and the body is made up of many members.

1 Corinthians 12:12-27 (KJV) ¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯¯ ¹² For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. ¹³ For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. ¹⁴ For the body is not one member, but many. ¹⁵ If the foot shall say, Because I am not the hand, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? ¹⁶ And if the ear shall say, Because I am not the eye, I am not of the body; is it therefore not of the body? ¹⁷ If the whole body were an eye, where were the hearing? If the whole were hearing, where were the smelling? ¹⁸ But now hath God set the members every one of them in the body, as it hath pleased him. ¹⁹ And if they were all one member, where were the body? ²⁰ But now are they many members, yet but one body. ²¹ And the eye cannot say unto the hand, I have no need of thee: nor again the head to the feet, I have no need of you. ²² Nay, much more those members of the body, which seem to be more feeble, are necessary: ²³ And those members of the body, which we think to be less honourable, upon these we bestow more abundant honour; and our uncomely parts have more abundant comeliness. ²⁴ For our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, having given more abundant honour to that part which lacked: ²⁵ That there should be no schism in the body; but that the members should have the same care one for another. ²⁶ And whether one member suffer, all the members suffer with it; or one member be honoured, all the members rejoice with it. ²⁷ Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular.
 
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Wrangler

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Jesus Christ Himself has a head ....God the Father. And yet, He thought it not robbery to be equal with God.

Jesus said God was greater than him. Jesus died and God raised him from the dead, not the other way around. After being raised by God, Jesus said he was given all authority (by God). No where does it say that Jesus gave God authority. That is not equal.
 
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amadeus

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God's favor looks to be for the father and/or the male, over and above the female. When we explore the topic, as a whole, yes. --> "Women's rights" do surface :)
People can find almost anything they want to find in the written scriptures according to their own biases or agendas. However people approaching as they should according to God can find the Truth which cannot be found by man's logical mind alone. Any man really wanting to come to God must start with faith. No scientific method here!

But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and that he is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him." Heb 11:6

In the OT we, as people not physically living in the time, should be slow to apply to ourselves that which would have applied to them. For us for the most part we will find when led by the Holy Spirit, the prophecies as well as a multitude of types and shadows of Reality.

Unbelievers cannot see Reality. They are blind except for the glimmer God provides to attract them to Him in the first place. Most of them never move beyond blindness and death.

Believers start our seeing as through darkened glass, but if they continue asking, seeking and knocking, their vision will improve moving toward a the "face to face Paul mentions.

"For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." I Cor 13:12

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2
 

Wrangler

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People can find almost anything they want to find in the written scriptures according to their own biases or agendas.

Amadeus, I've noticed your posts are so generic as to be unresponsive to the particular point under discussion.

People are not looking to find in the written scriptures verses to their own biases or agendas but apply scripture to the problems of living today.
 

TLHKAJ

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Jesus said God was greater than him. Jesus died and God raised him from the dead, not the other way around. After being raised by God, Jesus said he was given all authority (by God). No where does it say that Jesus gave God authority. That is not equal.
You have given your opinion of what "equal" means. I choose to take all of God's Word together to get a complete picture rather than pick and choose. Anyone can pull verses out and ignore the ones that don't fit their agenda. I believe we are done. :)
 
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