- Dec 11, 2006
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Grace, I am interested in your response to these questions:
when did Grace begin?
Does Grace end?
when did Grace begin?
Does Grace end?
Grace ???
- Thread starter tomwebster
- Start date
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Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Grace began from before the foundation of the world with God's decree to save a people for himself though Jesus Christ.
Eph 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places,
Eph 1:4 even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love
Eph 1:5 he predestined us for adoption as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,
Eph 1:6 to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.
Eph 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace. . .
The recipients of eternal life through grace will continue in that grace for eternity. So no, grace never ends for the redeemed.
thats the first i recall.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
This is just a sample of what the Scriptures say about 'Hell.' There is so much more.
Allow me to highlight the NT definition of Hell and the fate of those who enter therein from just the few passages I quoted above:
eternal fire
eternal punishment
eternal destruction
unquenchable fire
where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched
shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
It's painfully obvious that grace ends and justice begins eternally for those who enter Hell. This may be an uncomfortable truth, but it is truth and we have no right to attempt to explain it away. Our task is to warn unrepentant sinners not to go there. Period.
Guess that means you do not have any scripture to support your statement of "Grace ends for those who enter Hell."
Again a word study would help you tremendously with gaining a proper understanding concerning hell.
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If everyone is going to be saved then why are you wasting your time trying to convince us?[/font]
Only for those who repent and get saved.
1 Corinthians 6:9-10 (NKJV)
[sup]9 [/sup]Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, [sup]10 [/sup]nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.
Yes indeed I totally agree the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God, but there is but one who is righteous is there not? Outside of Christ no one is righteous.
Until you are willing to study the truth about such words as olam, aion and aionios, you are going to have to deny the scriptures that reference all being reconciled.
Jesus came to save the whole world, all mankind, the doctrines of unending torment and annihilation make Christ's mission a failure and deny God's sovereignty.
- Dec 11, 2006
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I do not think you know what those words mean since you can't show them in a verse.
Yes, Christ came to save the whole world but only those that accept and open the free gift will benefit from it. Each of us has a choice to make, accept or reject.
OK how about you tell me your definition of olam, aion and aionios.
I have not argued that we must accept Christ , but give some scriptures that sate you must do it before you die and that there are no other chances after you die?.
Nomad
Post Tenebras Lux
Heb 9:27 And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment. . .
Why don't you go ahead and tell me all about these Hebrew and Greek words? There's no need to deal with 'olam' and 'aion' separately since they basically have the same semantic range. Maybe you could include in your presentation how 'aion' is used with certain prepositions to form idiomatic expressions that leave no doubt about the intended meaning.
I'm all ears.
- Dec 11, 2006
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"EVERLASTING", "ETERNAL", "FOR EVER", ETC.
H5769
עוָֹלם
‛ôlām: A masculine noun meaning a very long time. The word usually refers to looking forward but many times expresses the idea of looking backward. It may cover a given person's lifetime (Exo_21:6; 1Sa_1:22); a period of many generations (Jos_24:2; Pro_22:28); the time of the present created order (Deu_33:15; Psa_73:12); time beyond this temporal sphere, especially when used regarding God (Gen_21:33; Psa_90:2; Dan_12:2, Dan_12:7). The term also applies to many things associated with God, such as His decrees, His covenants, and the Messiah (Gen_9:16; Exo_12:14; Mic_5:2 [1]). This word describes the span of time in which God is to be obeyed and praised (1Ch_16:36; Psa_89:1 [2]; Psa_119:112). In the age to come, there will be no need for sun or moon, for God Himself will be the everlasting light (Isa_60:19-20; cf. Rev_22:5).
I. In the Old Testament there are several words and expressions thus translated, the principal of which is
A. olam. This word is derived from 'alam (to hide), and means the hidden time or age, like aion (see below II. A), by which the word, or its Adjective aionios, it is generally rendered in the Sept. In Ezra 4 and Dan. 2-7, the Chaldee form 'alam is used. There are 448 passages where the word occurs.
i. It is doubled, "from 'olam to 'olam" in 11 places, and is translated :--
1. "for ever and ever" in 1Chron. 16:36; 29:10. Neh. 9:5. Jer. 7:7; 25:5. Dan. 2:20; 7:18.
2. "from everlasting to everlasting" in Ps. 41:13; 90:2; 103:17; 106:48.
ii. It is used in the plural 11 times, and translated :--
1. "for ever" in 1Kings 8:13. 2Chron. 6:2. Ps. 61:4; 77:7.
2. "everlasting" in Ps. 145:13 (see marg.). Isa. 26:4. (see marg.); 45:17. Dan. 9:24.
3. "of ancient times or old times" in Ps. 77:5. Ecc. 1:10.
4. "of old" in Isa. 51:9.
iii. It is rendered "for ever" in Gen. 3:22; 13:15. Ex. 3:15; 12:14, 17, 24; 14:13; 19:9; 21:6; 27:21; 28:43; 29:28; 30:21; 31:17; 32:13. Lev. 6:18, 22; 7:34, 336; 10:9, 15; 16:29, 31; 17:7; 23:14, 21, 31, 41; 24:3; 25:46. Num. 10:8; 15:15; 18:8, 11, 19, 23; 19:10. Deut. 5:29; 12:28; 13:16; 15:17; 23:3, 6; 28:46; 29:29; 32:40. Josh. 4:7; 8:28; 14:9. 1Sam. 1:22; 2:30; 3:13, 14; 13:13; 20:15, 23, 42; 27:12. 2Sam. 3:28; 7:13, 15, 18, 24, 25, 26, 29. 1Kings 1:31; 2:53, 45; 9:3, 5; 10:9. 2Kings 5:27; 21:7. 1Chron. 15:2; 16:34, 41; 17:12, 14, 22, 24, 27; 22:10; 23:13, 25; 28:4, 7, 8; 29:18 2Chron. 2:4; 5:13; 7:3, 6, 16; 9:8; 13:5; 20:7, 21; 30:8; 33:4, 7. Ezra 3:11; 9:12. Neh. 2:3; 13:1. Job 41:4. Ps. 9:7; 12:7; 28:9; 29:10; 30:12; 33:11; 37:18, 28; 41:12; 44:8; 45:2; 48:8; 49:8, 11; 52:9; 61:7; 66:7; 72:17, 19; 73:26; 75:9; 78:69; 79:13; 81:15; 85:5; 89:1, 2, 4, 36, 37; 102:12; 103:9; 104:31; 105:8; 106:1; 107:1; 110:4; 111:9; 112:6; 117:2; 118:1, 2, 3, 4, 29; 119:89, 111, 152, 160; 125:1, 2; 131:3; 135:13; 136:1-26; 138:8; 146:6, 10. Prov. 27:24. Ecc. 1:4; 2:16; 3:14; 9:6. Isa. 9:7; 32:14, 17; 34:10, 17; 40:8; 47:7; 51:6, 8; 57:16; 59:21; 60:21. Jer. 3:5, 12; 17:4, 25; 31:40; 33:11; 35:6; 49:33; 51:26, 62. Lam. 3:31; 5:19. Ezek. 37:25; 43:7, 9. Dan. 2:4, 44; 3:9; 4:34; 5:10; 6:6, 21, 26; 7:18; 12:7. Hos. 2:19. Joel 3:20. Obad. 10. Jonah 2:6. Mic. 2:9; 4:7. Zech. 1:5. Mal. 1:4.
iv. In conjunction with 'ad (see below, B ) it is rendered :--
1. "for ever and ever" in Ex. 15:18. Ps. 9:5; 10:16; 21:4; 45:6, 17; 48:14; 52:8; 111:8; 119:44; 145:1, 2, 21; 148:6. Isa. 30:8. Dan. 12:3. Mic. 4:5.
2. "for ever" in Ps. 104:5.
3. "world without end" in Isa. 45:-17. (*1)
v. With a negative it is rendered "never" in Judg. 2:1. 2Sam. 12:10. Ps. 15:5; 30:6; 31:1; 55:22; 71:1; 119:93. Prov. 10:30. Isa. 14:20; 25:2; 63:19. Ezek. 26:21. Dan. 2:44. Joel 2:26, 27.
vi. Rendered "everlasting" in Gen. 9:16; 17:7, 8, 13, 19; 21:33; 48:4; 49:26. Ex. 40:15. Lev. 16:34; 24:8. Num. 25:13. Deut. 33:27. 2Sam. 23:5. 1Chron. 16:17. Ps. 24:7, 9; 93:2; 100:5; 105:10; 112:6; 119:142, 144; 139:24. Prov. 8:23; 10:25. Isa. 24:5; 33:14; 35:10; 40:28; 51:11; 54:8; 55:3, 13; 56:5; 60:19, 20; 61:7, 8; 63:12, 16. Jer. 10:10; 20:11; 23:40; 31:3; 32:40. Ezek. 16:60; 37:26. Dan. 4:3, 34; 7:14, 27; 12:2. Mic. 5:2. Hab. 3:6.
vii. Rendered "perpetual" in Gen. 9:12. Ex. 29:9; 31:16. Lev. 3:17; 24:9; 25:34. Num. 19:21. Ps. 78:66. Jer. 5:22; 18:16; 23:40; 25:9, 12; 49:13; 50:5; 51:39, 57. Ezek. 35:5, 9; 46:14. Hab. 3:6. Zeph. 2:9.
viii. Rendered "for evermore" in 2Sam. 22:51. 1Chron. 17:14. Ps. 18:50; 37:27; 86:12; 89:28, 52; 92:8; 106:13; 113:2; 115:18; 121:8; 133:3. Ezek. 37:26, 28.
ix. Rendered "of old" or "ever of old" in Gen. 6:4. Deut. 32:7. 1Sam. 27:8. Ps. 25:6; 119:52. Isa. 46:9; 57:11; 63:9, 11. Jer. 28:8. Lam. 3:6. Ezek. 26:20. Amos 9:11. Mic. 7:14. Mal. 3:4.
x. Rendered "old" or "ancient" in Ezra 4:15, 19. Job 22:15. Prov. 22:28; 23:10. Isa. 44:7; 58:12; 61:4. Jer. 5:15; 6:16; 18:15. Ezek. 25:15; 36:2.
xi. Rendered "of" or "In old time" in Josh. 24:2. Jer. 2:20. Ezek. 26:20.
xii. Rendered "alway" or "always" in Gen. 6:3. 1Chron. 16:15. Job 7:16. Ps. 119:112. Jer. 20:17.
xiii. Rendered "ever" in Ps. 5:11; 111:5; 119:98. Joel 2:2
xiv. Rendered "any more" in Ezek. 27:36; 28:19; "long" in Ps. 143:3. Ecc. 12:5; "world" in Ps. 73:12. Ecc. 3:11; "continuance" in Isa. 64:5; "eternal" in Isa. 60:15; "lasting" in Deut. 33:15; "long time" in Isa. 42:14; "at any time" in Lev. 25:32; and "since the beginning of the world" in Isa. 64:4.
B. 'ad from the verb 'adah (to pass on), as a Noun is used of time past or future. It is also a Preposition or Conjunction, meaning "until" (see Oxford Gesenius, pp. 723, 4). The noun occurs 49 times, 19 of which occurrences are given above (A. iv). The remaining 30 are rendered :
i. "for ever" in Num. 24:20, 24. 1Chron. 28:9. Job 19:24. Ps. 9:18; 19:9; 21:6; 22:26; 37:29; 61:8; 83:17; 89:29; 92:7; 111:3, 10; 112:3, 9; 132:14. Prov. 12:19; 29:14. Isa. 26:4; 64:9; 65:18. Mic. 7:18.
ii. "everlasting" in Isa. 9:6. Hab. 3:6.
iii. "eternity" in Isa. 57:15; "evermore" in Ps. 132:12; "of old" in Job 20:4; and "perpetually" in Amos 1:11.
Other words are: -
C. nezach, which means "excellence" or "completeness", and is the word used in the subscription of 55 Psalms for "chief" in "chief Musician". It is rendered :--
i. "for ever" in 2Sam. 2:26. Job 4:20; 14:20; 20:7; 23:7; 36:7. Ps. 13:1; 44:23; 49:9; 52:5; 68:16; 74:1, 10, 19; 77:8; 79:5; 89:46. Jer. 50:39. Lam. 5:20. Amos 1:11.
ii. "never" (with a negative) in Ps. 10:11; 49:19. Isa. 13:20. Amos 8:7. Hab. 1:4.
iii. alway(s) in Ps. 9:18; 103:9. Isa. 57:16.
iv. "perpetual" in Ps. 9:6; 74:3. Jer. 15:18.
v. "ever" in Isa. 28:28; 33:20; "strength" in 1Sam. 15:29. Lam. 3:18; "the end" in Job 34:36. Jer. 3:5; "victory" in 1Chron. 29:11. Isa. 25:8. "evermore" in Ps. 16:11; "constantly" in Prov. 21:28 and "for ever and ever" in Isa. 34:10. In this last passage it is doubled, lenezach nezahim = completeness of completenesses.
D. kedem, from the verb kadam, to precede or prevent (2Sam. 22:6, &c.), means that which is before, of time or place; hence often translated the east (Gen. 3:24, &c.). It is always used of the past, and is rendered "ever" in Prov. 8:23; "eternal" in Deut. 33:27; "everlasting" in Hab. 1:12; "old" or "ancient" in Deut. 33:15. 2Kings 19:25. Neh. 12:46. Ps. 44:1; 55:19; 68:33; 74:2,12; 77:5,11; 78:2; 119:152; 143:5. Isa. 19:11; 23:7; 37:26; 45:21; 46:10; 51:9. Jer. 46:26. Lam. 1:7; 2:17; 5:12. Mic. 5:2; 7:20; and "past" in Job 29:2.
E. zmithuth, from zamath (to cut), means "for cutting off". It occurs only in Lev. 25:23 (see marg.), 30, and is rendered "for ever".
F. tamid = always, is rendered :--
"ever" in Lev. 6:13. Ps. 25:15; 51:3; "evermore" in Ps/ 105:4, and (with a negative) "never" in Isa. 62:6.
G. dor = generation, is translated (with a negative) "never" in Ps. 10:6, and "for evermore" in Ps. 77:8, where the margin in both cases gives "to generation to generation".
H. yom = day, occurs nearly 2,500 times. The expression orek yamin, "length of days", is translated "for ever" in Ps. 23:6; 93:5. In both cases the margin gives "to length of days". Kal yamin, or kal hayyamin, "all days" or "all the days" is translated "for ever" in Gen. 43:9; 44:32. Deut. 4:40; 18:5. Josh. 4:24. 1Sam. 2:32, 35; 28:2. 1Kings 11:39; 12:7. 2Chron. 10:7; 21:7. Jer. 31:36; 32:39; 35:19; "ever" in Deut. 19:9. 1Kings 5:1. Ps. 37:26; and "evermore" in Deut. 28:29. 2Kings 17:37.
II. In the N.T. the words rendered "for ever", &c., are the Noun aion, the Adjectives aionios, aidios, akatalutos, and aperantos; the Adverbs aei and pantote, and the adverbial phrase eis to dienekes.
A. aion, which means "age" (Ap. 129. 2), is found 128 times in 105 passages, in 23 of which it is doubled (see below, ii. 6, 9, 10). It occurs in its simple form 37 times, and with Prepositions 68 times.
i. In its simple form it is rendered :--
1. "age". Eph. 2:7 (pl). Col. 1:26 (pl).
2. "course". Eph. 2:2.
3. "world". Matt. 12:32; 13:22, 39, 40, 49; 24:3; 28:20. Mark 4:19; 10:30. Luke 16:8; 18:30; 20:34, 35. Rom. 12:2. 1Cor. 1:20; 2:6, 7 (pl), 8; 3:18; 10:11 (pl). 2Cor. 4:4. Gal. 1:4. Eph. 1:21; 6:12. 1Tim. 6:17. 2Tim. 4:10. Tit. 2:12. Heb. 1:2 (pl); 6:5; 9:26 (pl); 11:3 (pl).
4. "eternal". Eph. 3:11. 1Tim. 1:17 (lit. "of the ages").
ii. In prepositional phrases :--
1. ap'aionos [from (Ap. 104. iv) an (the) age], rendered "since the world began" in Luke 1:70. Acts 3:21; and "from the beginning of the world" in Acts 15:18.
2. apo ton aionon [from (Ap. 104. iv) the ages], rendered "from the beginning of the world" in Eph. 3:9.
3. ek tou ainos [out of (Ap. 104. vii) the age], rendered "since the world began" in John 9:32.
4. eis ton ainona [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Matt. 21:19. Mark 11:14. Luke 1:55. John 6:51, 58; 8:35; 12:34; 14:16. 2Cor. 9:9. Heb. 5:6; 6:20; 7:17, 21. 1Pet. 1:23, 25. 2Pet. 2:17 (no Art.). 1John 2:17. 2John 2. Jude 13.
b. "never" (with a negative) in Mark 3:29. John 4:14; 8:51, 52; 10:28; 11:26; 13:8.
c. "ever" in Heb. 7:24.
d. "for evermore" in Heb. 7:28.
e. "while the world standeth" in 1Cor. 8:13.
5. eis hemeran aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) day of an age], rendered "for ever" in 2Pet. 3:18.
6. eis ton aiona tou aionos [to (Ap. 104. vi) the age of an age], rendered "for ever and ever" in Heb. 1:8.
7. eis tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever" in Matt. 6:13. Luke 1:33. Rom. 1:25; 9:5; 11:36; 16:27. Heb. 13:8.
b. "for evermore" in 2Cor. 11:31.
8. eis pantas tous aionas [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the ages], rendered "ever" in Jude 25.
9. eis tous aionas ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) to the ages of the ages], rendered :--
a. "for ever and ever" in Gal. 1:5. Phil. 4:29. 1Tim. 1:17. 2Tim. 4:18. Heb. 13:21. 1Pet. 4:11; 5:11. Rev. 1:6; 4:9, 10; 5:13, 14; 7:12; 10:6; 11:15; 14:11 (no Arts); 15:7; 19:3; 20:10; 22:5.
b. "for evermore" in Rev. 1:18.
10. eis pasas tas geneas tou aionos ton aionon [to (Ap. 104. vi) all the generations of the age of ages], rendered "throughout all ages, world without end" in Eph. 3:21.
B. aionios, of or belonging to an age, occurs 71 times, and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Matt. 19:16; 25:46. Mark 3:29; 10:17, 30. Luke 10:25; 18:18. John 3:15; 4:36; 5:39; 6:54, 68; 10:28; 12:25; 17:2, 3. Acts 13:48. Rom. 2:7; 5:21; 6:23. 2Cor. 4:17, 18; 5:1. 1Tim. 6:12, 19. 2Tim. 2:10. Tit. 1:2; 3:7. Heb. 5:9; 6:2; 9:12, 14, 15. 1Pet. 5:10. 1John 1:2; 2:25; 3:15; 5:11, 13, 20. Jude 7:21.
ii. "everlasting" in Matt. 18:8; 19:29; 25:41, 46. Luke 16:9; 18:30. John 3:16, 36; 4:14; 5:24; 6:27, 40, 47; 12:50. Acts 13:46. Rom. 6:22; 16:26. Gal. 6:8. 2Thess. 1:9; 2:16. 1Tim. 1:16; 6:16. Heb. 13:20. 2Pet. 1:11. Rev. 14:6.
iii. "for ever" in Philem. 15.
iv. "Before or since the world began", in the phrases, chronois, aioniois, or pro chronon aionion, (in, or before age-times), strangely rendered in the R.V. "through, or before times eternal", in Rom. 16:25. 2Tim. 1:9. Tit. 1:2.
C. aidios, said to be from aei (see F below), but perhaps from a not and idein to see, = unseen or hidden, occurs twice and is rendered :--
i. "eternal" in Rom. 1:20.
ii. "everlasting" in Jude 6.
D. akatalutos (indissoluble) occurs once, and is rendered "endless" in Heb. 7:16.
E. aperantos (interminable) occurs once, and is rendered "endless" in 1Tim. 1:4.
F. aei (always) occurs 8 times, and is rendered :--
i. "ever" in Mark 15:8.
ii. "alway" or "always" in Acts 7:51. 2Cor. 4:11; 6:10. Tit. 1:12. Heb. 3:10. 1Pet. 3:15. 2Pet. 1:12.
G. pantote (always) occurs 42 times, and is rendered :--
i. "alway" or "always" in Matt. 26:11. Mark 14:7. Luke 18:1. John 7:6; 8:29; 11:42; 12:8; 18:20. Rom. 1:9. 1Cor 1:4; 15:58. 2Cor. 2:14; 4:10; 5:6; 9:8. Gal. 4:18. Eph. 5:20. Phil. 1:4, 20; 2:12; 4:4. Col. 1:3; 4:6, 12. 1Thess. 1:2; 2:16; 3:6. 2Thess. 1:3, 11; 2:13. Philem. 4.
ii. "ever" in Luke 15:31. John 18:20. 1Thess. 4:17; 5:15. 2Tim. 3:7. Heb. 7:25.
iii. "evermore" in John 6:34. 1Thess. 5:16.
H. eis to dienekes [to (Ap. 104. vi) that which is continuos] occurs 4 times, rendered :--
i. "continually" in Heb. 7:3; 10:1.
ii. "for ever" in Heb. 10:12, 14.
You give Scripture that states we have the ability to accept Christ inthe eternity.
[font="tahoma][size="2"] Doesn't seem very exhaustive at all, w[/size][/font]hat source did you use Tom?
[font="tahoma][size="2"]Let's check your definition of olam (KJV) and see if it works with all the scriptures.[/size][/font]
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[font="tahoma][size="2"]For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. Gen.13:15[/size][/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]Was the land given for an age or for ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]And this day shall be unto you for a memorial; and ye shall keep it a feast to the LORD throughout your generations; ye shall keep it a feast by an ordinance for ever. Exod. 12:14[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]Again for an age or for ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]And the priest of his sons that is anointed in his stead shall offer it: [it is] a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt. Lev.6:22[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]For and for an age or for ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]It [shall be] a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever. Lev. 16:31[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]Again is this for ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]And ye shall take them as an inheritance for your children after you, to inherit [them for] a possession; they shall be your bondmen for ever: but over your brethren the children of Israel, ye shall not rule one over another with rigour. Lev. 25:46[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]For ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Thou shalt keep therefore his statutes, and his commandments, which I command thee this day, that it may go well with thee, and with thy children after thee, and that thou mayest prolong [thy] days upon the earth, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, for ever. Deut. 4:40[/font]
[font="'trebuchet ms"]For ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"] [/font]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me for ever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God. Jon. 2:6
Really, for ever or just 3 days?
[font="'trebuchet ms"]Can you see the possibility that olam doesn't always mean for ever?[/font]
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[font="'trebuchet ms"]Olam (noun) is derived from the root word alam (verb) which means "to hide". So then when referencing time, in many cases, olam means an unseen amount of time in the past or future. In the sense of a time ( eternity) beyond our horizon or view it has much more to do with realm and quality than measure. Plainly there is not an accurate English word for the Hebrew word olam.[/font]
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