Grace ???

[Nomad]

Tom used the appendix to the Companion Bible and the entry presented is accurate and representative of the uses of the words listed. Now, no one who has even a basic knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is going to argue that 'olam' and 'aion' always mean eternal or everlasting. This doesn't apply to the adjective 'aionios' which always means eternal. All Greek and Hebrew words have a semantic range, which simply means various shades of meaning. The particular meaning of any word is governed by context, gramatical considerations, idomatic constructions, etc. More often than not, context is more than enough to demonstrate what meaning a Biblical author had in mind. It's not that difficult.

With that in mind, what exactly is your point?

 

[jiggyfly]

Tom used the appendix to the Companion Bible and the entry presented is accurate and representative of the uses of the words listed. Now, no one who has even a basic knowledge of Greek and Hebrew is going to argue that 'olam' and 'aion' always mean eternal or everlasting. This doesn't apply to the adjective 'aionios' which always means eternal. All Greek and Hebrew words have a semantic range, which simply means various shades of meaning. The particular meaning of any word is governed by context, gramatical considerations, idomatic constructions, etc. More often than not, context is more than enough to demonstrate what meaning a Biblical author had in mind. It's not that difficult.

With that in mind, what exactly is your point?

Did you read my post?
Olam (noun) is derived from the root word alam (verb) which means "to hide". So then when referencing time, in many cases, olam means an unseen amount of time in the past or future. In the sense of a time ( eternity) beyond our horizon or view it has much more to do with realm and quality than measure. Plainly there is not an accurate English word for the Hebrew word olam.

 

[Nomad]

Plainly there is not an accurate English word for the Hebrew word olam.

That's right. There isn't "an accurate English word" for 'olam.' There are many accurate English words for 'olam.' Like I said before, words have semantic range. It's rare to find any word that means only one thing without variation. Context and grammatical considerations determine which definition is intended in a particular text.

עלם / עולם
‛ôlâm

Brown Driver and Briggs Definition:

1) long duration, antiquity, futurity, for ever, ever, everlasting, evermore, perpetual, old, ancient, world
1a) ancient time, long time (of past)
1b) (of future)
1b1) for ever, always
1b2) continuous existence, perpetual
1b3) everlasting, indefinite or unending future, eternity

Part of Speech: noun masculine
A Related Word by BDB/Strong’s Number: from H5956
Same Word by TWOT Number: 1631a

 

[Martin W.]

Grace, I am interested in your response to these questions:

when did Grace begin?

Does Grace end?

I thought long and hard but still find that a difficult question to answer.

I think Grace is something (eternally) inherent in God , but he regulates how and when it is dispensed.

I think he wants us to recognize his grace , and requires us to want his grace , before he dispenses his grace to us.

As far as God , I don't think his grace can ever end , I also do not think he will withdraw his grace from us , no matter how "bad" we are.

I realize I have not answered the question , I am just thinking and typing out loud. I have never actually studied the bible to see if we are told about grace beginning or ending.

Interesting topic.

I will also confess to considering the possibility that (by his grace) God could decide to forgive everyone who ever lived on the planet , maybe even forgive the fallen angels.

Scripture does not allow that , but I could not rule it impossible. I think the measure of God's grace has the capacity.

Some of my thoughts anyway.

 

[jiggyfly]

That's right. There isn't "an accurate English word" for 'olam.' There are many accurate English words for 'olam.' Like I said before, words have semantic range. It's rare to find any word that means only one thing without variation. Context and grammatical considerations determine which definition is intended in a particular text.

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me olam: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.


Which of the definitions you posted from B,D&B work in this scripture?

 

[Duckybill]

I will also confess to considering the possibility that (by his grace) God could decide to forgive everyone who ever lived on the planet , maybe even forgive the fallen angels.

That would make the Scriptures quite unreliable.

Revelation 20:15 (NKJV)
[sup]15 [/sup]And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[Martin W.]

That would make the Scriptures quite unreliable.

Isn't that what I said ??

 

[Duckybill]

Isn't that what I said ??

Not sure where you are going with that. Are you clearly stating the Bible is unreliable?

 

[jiggyfly]

Scripture does not allow that , but I could not rule it impossible. I think the measure of God's grace has the capacity.

Thanks for your post Martin, one correction, scripture interpreted with the unending torment paradigm limits God's grace.
Otherwise we find things like Romans 11:32 and hundreds more.
For God has imprisoned all people in their own disobedience so He could have mercy on everyone.

God is not a failure, He will accomplish what He set out to do concerning mankind, reconciling everyone.

 

[Martin W.]

Not sure where you are going with that. Are you clearly stating the Bible is unreliable?

No. I am clearly stating that you did not read my post properly.

In order to assist you I will repeat part of it again and underline the parts you missed . Hope that clarifies.

Scripture does not allow that , but I could not rule it impossible. I think the measure of God's grace has the capacity.

 

[Duckybill]

No. I am clearly stating that you did not read my post properly.

In order to assist you I will repeat part of it again and underline the parts you missed . Hope that clarifies.

I do not understand how this statement is not contradicting.

"Scripture does not allow that , but I could not rule it impossible. "

 

[Martin W.]

I do not understand how this statement is not contradicting.

"Scripture does not allow that , but I could not rule it impossible. "

I will try it a different way

(The subject is God's grace)
I think the grace of God has a huge enough capacity to cover all that he has created. (If he wanted too)
I do not feel for a minute it will happen , and I agree the bible does not say it will .

But I think he has the capability to do so. In other words his application of grace is limited only by how he decides to dispense it.

 

[Duckybill]

I will try it a different way

(The subject is God's grace)
I think the grace of God has a huge enough capacity to cover all that he has created. (If he wanted too)
I do not feel for a minute it will happen , and I agree the bible does not say it will .

But I think he has the capability to do so. In other words his application of grace is limited only by how he decides to dispense it.

Thanks for clarifying.

 

[Nomad]

I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars [was] about me olam: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.


Which of the definitions you posted from B,D&B work in this scripture?

The word 'forever' is the appropriate rendering of 'olam' in Jonah 2:6. The entire second chapter is a poetic expression of Jonah's experience of being cast into the sea and swallowed by a great fish. Jonah, in verse 6, feels that he is in a hopeless state and represents himself as a prisoner closed in by bars 'forever.' He says 'forever' because he feels his life will surely end there. Jonah then immediately says, "yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God." He's saying that despite his fear that the end was inevitable and permanent ('forever'), the Lord saved him from a seemingly hopeless situation.

So again, the translation 'forever' is correct.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version, ©2010)
[sup]
[/sup]

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
brought my life up from the pit.




Jonah 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)

[sup]6[/sup]"I [sup](A)[/sup]descended to the roots of the mountains
The earth with its [sup](B)[/sup]bars was around me forever,
But You have [sup](C)[/sup]brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.





Jonah 2:6 (King James Version)


[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.



Jonah 2:6 (King James Version 1611)



Jon 2:6 I went downe to the bottomes of the mountaines: the earth with her barres was about me for euer: yet hast thou brought vp my life from corruption, O Lord my God.





Jonah 2:6 (English Standard Version)

[sup]6[/sup]at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me forever;
yet you brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD my God.



Jonah 2:6 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]6[/sup]I had sunk down below

the underwater mountains;

I knew that forever,

I would be a prisoner there.

But, you, LORD God,

rescued me from that pit.





Jonah 2:6 (New King James Version)
[sup]6[/sup] I went down to the moorings of the mountains;
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD, my God.



Jonah 2:6 (New Century Version)

[sup]6[/sup] When I went down to where the mountains of the sea start to rise,
I thought I was locked in this prison forever,
but you saved me from the pit of death,
Lord my God.




Jonah 2:6 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

[sup]6[/sup]I sank to the foot of the mountains.
I sank to the bottom,
where bars held me forever.
But you brought me back from the pit, O Lord, my God.





Jonah 2:6 (21st Century King James Version)

[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever; yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.




Jonah 2:6 (American Standard Version)


[sup]6[/sup] I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed upon me forever: Yet hast thou brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.





Jonah 2:6 (Darby Translation)
[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The bars of the earth [closed] upon me forever: But thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.





Jonah 2:6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
[sup]6[/sup] I sank to the foundations of the mountains; [sup](A)[/sup]
the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever! [sup](B)[/sup]
But You raised my life [sup](C)[/sup] from the Pit, LORD my God! [sup](D)[/sup]




Jonah 2:6 (New International Reader's Version)

[sup]6[/sup] I sank down to the bottom of the mountains.
I thought I had died
and gone down into the grave .forever
But you brought my life up
from the very edge of the pit.
You are the Lord my God.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version - UK)
[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.




Jonah 2:6 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
brought my life up from the pit.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God.

 

[jiggyfly]

The word 'forever' is the appropriate rendering of 'olam' in Jonah 2:6. The entire second chapter is a poetic expression of Jonah's experience of being cast into the sea and swallowed by a great fish. Jonah, in verse 6, feels that he is in a hopeless state and represents himself as a prisoner closed in by bars 'forever.' He says 'forever' because he feels his life will surely end there. Jonah then immediately says, "yet you brought up my life from the pit, O Lord my God." He's saying that despite his fear that the end was inevitable and permanent ('forever'), the Lord saved him from a seemingly hopeless situation.

So again, the translation 'forever' is correct.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version, ©2010)
[sup]
[/sup]

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
brought my life up from the pit.




Jonah 2:6 (New American Standard Bible)

[sup]6[/sup]"I [sup](A)[/sup]descended to the roots of the mountains
The earth with its [sup](B)[/sup]bars was around me forever,
But You have [sup](C)[/sup]brought up my life from the pit, O LORD my God.





Jonah 2:6 (King James Version)


[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever: yet hast thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.



Jonah 2:6 (King James Version 1611)



Jon 2:6 I went downe to the bottomes of the mountaines: the earth with her barres was about me for euer: yet hast thou brought vp my life from corruption, O Lord my God.





Jonah 2:6 (English Standard Version)

[sup]6[/sup]at the roots of the mountains.
I went down to the land
whose bars closed upon me forever;
yet you brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD my God.



Jonah 2:6 (Contemporary English Version)
[sup]6[/sup]I had sunk down below

the underwater mountains;

I knew that forever,

I would be a prisoner there.

But, you, LORD God,

rescued me from that pit.





Jonah 2:6 (New King James Version)
[sup]6[/sup] I went down to the moorings of the mountains;
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O LORD, my God.



Jonah 2:6 (New Century Version)

[sup]6[/sup] When I went down to where the mountains of the sea start to rise,
I thought I was locked in this prison forever,
but you saved me from the pit of death,
Lord my God.




Jonah 2:6 (GOD’S WORD Translation)

[sup]6[/sup]I sank to the foot of the mountains.
I sank to the bottom,
where bars held me forever.
But you brought me back from the pit, O Lord, my God.





Jonah 2:6 (21st Century King James Version)

[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; the earth with her bars was about me forever; yet hast Thou brought up my life from corruption, O LORD my God.




Jonah 2:6 (American Standard Version)


[sup]6[/sup] I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The earth with its bars closed upon me forever: Yet hast thou brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.





Jonah 2:6 (Darby Translation)
[sup]6[/sup]I went down to the bottoms of the mountains; The bars of the earth [closed] upon me forever: But thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my God.





Jonah 2:6 (Holman Christian Standard Bible)
[sup]6[/sup] I sank to the foundations of the mountains; [sup](A)[/sup]
the earth with its prison bars closed behind me forever! [sup](B)[/sup]
But You raised my life [sup](C)[/sup] from the Pit, LORD my God! [sup](D)[/sup]




Jonah 2:6 (New International Reader's Version)

[sup]6[/sup] I sank down to the bottom of the mountains.
I thought I had died
and gone down into the grave .forever
But you brought my life up
from the very edge of the pit.
You are the Lord my God.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version - UK)
[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down; the earth beneath barred me in forever. But you brought my life up from the pit, O LORD my God.




Jonah 2:6 (Today’s New International Version, ©2005)

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you, LORD my God,
brought my life up from the pit.





Jonah 2:6 (New International Version 1984, ©1984)

[sup]6[/sup] To the roots of the mountains I sank down;
the earth beneath barred me in forever.
But you brought my life up from the pit,
O LORD my God.

Simply ludicrous.

 

[Duckybill]

It's quite obvious that those who deny eternal punishment in Hell are prime candidates for everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire. There will be MANY in Hell who don't believe in Hell.

 

[jiggyfly]

It's quite obvious that those who deny eternal punishment in Hell are prime candidates for everlasting punishment in the everlasting fire. There will be MANY in Hell who don't believe in Hell.

Thank God its up to Him and not the religious crowd.

 

[Duckybill]

Thank God its up to Him and not the religious crowd.

Yes, and He said:

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV)
[sup]43 [/sup]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]44 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Note the word NEVER.

 

[jiggyfly]

Yes, and He said:

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV)
[sup]43 [/sup]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]44 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Note the word NEVER.

Do you know what the valley of Hinnom was?

This is not a literal discussion here, you should read the whole account and study it. Does your fleshly body enter the kingdom of heaven? He also mentions being cast into the sea with a millstone around the neck, so does this mean hell is full of water and a place of eternal drowning? Hope you see the ludicrousness of your argument.

 

[Nomad]

Yes, and He said:

Mark 9:43-44 (NKJV)
[sup]43 [/sup]If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched-- [sup]44 [/sup]where 'Their worm does not die, And the fire is not quenched.'

Note the word NEVER.

Do you know what the valley of Hinnom was?

This is not a literal discussion here, you should read the whole account and study it. Does your fleshly body enter the kingdom of heaven? He also mentions being cast into the sea with a millstone around the neck, so does this mean hell is full of water and a place of eternal drowning? Hope you see the ludicrousness of your argument.

This is not a literal discussion here? So the discussion recorded by Mark never took place? Did he fabricate the whole thing?

In any case, historical knowledge of the Valley of Hinnom is not required to grasp Jesus' use of metaphor to make a very real, very literal point about final judgment. Rotting corpses whose worm never dies, burning with unquenchable fire is a crystal clear physical metaphor for the never ending nature of the suffering and punishment in the life hereafter for the unredeemed.

A symbol or metaphor always depicts and points toward something very real, not something unreal. Jesus didn't use metaphor so that you could attempt to explain away an unpleasant truth.