Hades / The Grave

[Webers_Home]

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● Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment.

. . . Abraham replied: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to
them.

. . . No, father Abraham-- he said --but if someone from the dead goes to
them, they will repent.

. . . He said to him: If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will
not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.

Abraham was a prophet (Gen 20:7) which means he was an inspired man.
As such, he would be privy to information that would normally be
unavailable to the average rank and file pew warmer. However prophets
aren't meant to keep what they hear from God to themselves; they're
messengers, e.g. Abraham was a teacher/mentor. (Gen 18:19)

So then, I think it's fairly safe to assume the information that Abraham
passed on to the rich man came to Abraham via inspiration; which, if so,
means that our reaction to his remarks should be very different than the rich
man's. He brushed aside what Abraham told him; but we, I should hope, are
wiser than that impious dunce because we know that a prophet's teachings
are the voice of God.

I think it's pretty safe to assert that if people won't listen to Abraham, then
neither will they listen to Jesus.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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Former US President John F. Kennedy was assassinated Friday, Nov 22,
1963 @ 12:30 p.m. by one Lee Harvey Oswald.

Though Oswald succeeded in terminating the life of Mr. Kennedy's body,
according to Matt 10:28 and Luke 12:4-5 he did not succeed in terminating
the life of Mr. Kennedy's soul. No, that part of the former president's
existence survived.

Matt 10:28 is very good evidence that normal human existence consists of
at least two components: soul and body; which is corroborated by 1Thess
5:23.

The million dollar question is: Where was Mr. Kennedy's soul taken when his
body passed away?

Well, one of the biblical answers to that question is located in Luke 16:19
31, viz: Mr. Kennedy's soul was taken to either the rich man's location, or it
was taken to Abraham's.
_

 

[DoveSpirit05]

hades is both Abrahams bossom and the holding place for sinners!! 1 peter 3:19, jesus was in hades preaching 2 the sinners!!

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Eccl 9:5 . .The dead do not know anything.

● Ecc 9:10 . .Whatever your hand finds to do, verily, do it with all your
might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in sheol
where you are going.

Ecclesiastes is the Bible's fun book because it's chock full of normal thinking
instead of religious dogma. Ecclesiastes requires very little interpretation as
anybody who's been around the block a time or two can easily relate to its
thoughts.

Bible students are often baffled as to why Solomon's remarks in the book of
Ecclesiastes sometimes contradict Christ's teachings in the New Testament.
Well; the answer to that is actually pretty simple.

Solomon wasn't inspired to record his observations of life from the
perspective of an enlightened man who's privy to knowledge beyond the
scope of empirical evidence and human experience; rather, from the
perspective of a man under the sun; viz: a down to earth thinking man
whose perception of reality is moderated by what he can see for himself
going on around him in the physical universe; which of course results in an
evaluation of life on earth as seen from the earth rather than an evaluation
of life on earth as seen from heaven.

In other words: Ecclesiastes isn't the word of God, it's the word of a
philosopher; his own personal world view, and it's so identified right at the
gun. (Ecc 1:1)

Solomon was the brightest intellectual of his day. However; it is not wise to
interpret Christ's teachings by citing Solomon's because according to Matt
12:42, Luke 11:31, John 1:1 and Col 2:3; Jesus' wisdom is superior to
Solomon's, and has more authority.

In addition: Jesus Christ spoke the words of God (John 3:34, John 8:26,
John 8:28, John 12:49, John 14:24) whereas there is not the slightest
textual evidence in the book of Ecclesiastes that Solomon spoke the words of
God when he wrote it. Caveat Lector.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Luke 16:27-31 . . I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, for
I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to
this place of torment.

My guess is that the rich man was concerned because he knew all too well
that his brothers didn't believe in a hell. I suspect that they felt, as many do,
that when their brother breathed his last, he ceased to exist. In other words;
the rich man hoped that his brothers would be interested to find out that he
was still conscious somewhere beyond the grave.

● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

According to Abraham, the Old Testament reveals the existence of a hell;
not only the Prophets, but also Moses; viz: the Pentateuch.

I've thus far had no luck locating a hell in the Pentateuch, but the Prophets
have at least one mention that really stands out.

● Isa 66:23-24 . . From one New Moon to another and from one Sabbath to
another, all mankind will come and bow down before me; says The Lord.

. . . And they will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who
rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched,
and they will be loathsome to all mankind.

But of one thing about his brothers that the rich man was convinced: they
were not Bible believers. So he protested:

● Luke 16:30 . . No, father Abraham

In other words: the rich man was all too aware that the Old Testament's
revelations about hell would've just bounced off his brothers like a Red
Ryder BB gun off the armor plating of a Russian tank. The really creative
ones might've even written off the OT's teachings as parables that have no
basis in reality.

● Luke 16:30-31 . . He said; "If someone from the dead goes to them, they
will repent. Abraham said to him; "If they do not listen to Moses and the
Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead."

That's still true. Things like after-death experiences, and near-death
experiences, typically have very little influence on secular thinking.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

The first five books of the Bible, a.k.a. the Pentateuch, are attributed to
Moses. I can't find anything in them where Moses clearly wrote about hell;
but I have found several places in the Pentateuch where Moses wrote of a
location called sheol (sheh-ole').

Sheol first appears in Gen 37:35, and thereafter six more places in Moses'
writings. Apparently the rich man and his five brothers either overlooked
sheol, never bothered to research it, or just simply discarded it as fantasy.

Sheol is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Hebrew word
for grave in the Pentateuch is qeber (keh'-ber) a.k.a. qibrah (kib-raw');
which first appears in Gen 23:4 and thereafter eleven more places in Moses'
writings.

The Greek equivalent of sheol is haides (hah'-dace) which first appears in
Matt 11:23 and thereafter ten more places in the New Testament.

Haides is commonly interpreted as the grave. Well; the specific Greek word
for grave is mnemeion (mnay-mi'-on) which first appears at Matt 8:28, and
thereafter forty-one more places in the New Testament.

The rich man was no doubt familiar with qeber/mnemeion from attending a
number of funerals; fully expecting the day when he himself would be laid to
rest. But the rich man didn't anticipate sheol/haides; that he did not
expect. Consequently the afterlife caught him completely by surprise like an
unsuspecting bear stepping on the trigger of a powerful spring-loaded steel
trap

The man's five brothers were on the same track, coming after him totally
unprepared for the tsunami of shock, terror, and awe set to greet their
arrival. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to in the
afterlife isn't Abraham's bosom, rather, a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Luke 16:29 . . But Abraham said; "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

A very useful Prophet in any discussion of the afterlife is Jonah because he
was actually there and saw it for himself.

● Jonah 2:1-2 . . Jonah prayed to Jehovah his God from the stomach of the
fish, and he said: "I called out of my distress to The Lord, and He answered
me. I cried for help from the depth of sheol.

● Jonah 2:6 . . I descended to the roots of the mountains. The earth with its
bars was around me forever

The roots of the mountains aren't located in the tummy of a fish; they're
way down deep in the ground.

Jonah's afterlife adventure not only took him deep underground to sheol, but it
also included a resurrection.

● Jonah 2:6 . . But Thou hast brought up my life from the pit, O Jehovah my
God.

The Hebrew word for "pit" in that verse is the very same word for pit in Ps
16:8-10; which Acts 2:25-31 verifies is speaking of putrefaction.

● Matt 12:39-40 . . As Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of
a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the
heart of the Earth.

There's a popular theory going around that when people pass away, they
cease to exist. Well; were that true, then Christ would've ceased to exist
when he died on the cross, and it would've been necessary to first re-create
him before his corpse could be restored to life. It would've also been
necessary to first re-create Jonah too before his corpse could be restored to
life. The "cease to exist" theory holds up pretty well in science but it falls flat
in the Bible.

Now when you think about it; Jesus' corpse was never in the heart of the
Earth. It wasn't even in the Earth's soil. His remains were laid to rest on the
surface of the Earth in a rock-hewn tomb.

The only way that Jesus could possibly be in a tomb on the surface of the
Earth while at the same time in the heart of the Earth; was for the man and
his body to part company and go their separate ways.

Same for Jonah. The only way that he could be in a fish's tummy while at
the same time at the roots of the mountains was for the man and his body
to part company and go their separate ways.

Jesus and Jonah are the two best biblical proofs I know of that there is an
afterlife; and that part of it is located somewhere deep underground. For a
great many people who've gone on before us, its discovery has been a
terrible disappointment.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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People are able to terminate each other's bodies, but according to Jesus'
statements they are unable to terminate each other's souls.

● Matt 10:28 . . Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill
the soul:

● Luke 12:4 . . Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have
no more that they can do.

Well: if ordinary people's souls survive the termination of their body, then I
think it's 100% safe to assume that Jesus Christ's soul survived crucifixion.

● Ps 16:9-10 . . My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul
in sheol, nor will You allow Your holy one to see corruption.

Peter verified that the prophet David was speaking of Jesus when he wrote
that passage in the Psalms. (Acts 2:25-27)

1• Jesus Christ attested that the soul survives the death of the body.

2• David's and Peter's statements indicate that Jesus' soul was taken to
sheol/hades when he passed away on the cross.

3• David's and Peter's statements indicate that sheol and hades are one and
the same place.

4• Christ and the prophet Jonah corroborate each other's statements that
sheol/hades is located somewhere deep underground.

5• Jonah prayed while he was in sheol/hades; thus verifying that the people
residing there are not in hibernation; instead are fully conscious and able to
conduct sensible, intelligent conversations.
_

 

[Webers_Home]

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● Luke 16:27-28 . .The rich man answered: "I beg you, father, send Lazarus
to my father's house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that
they will not also come to this place of torment."

● Luke 16:29 . .But Abraham said: "They have Moses and the Prophets; let
them hear them"

● Luke 16:30 . . But he said: "No, Father Abraham"

The Bible says that Abraham himself was a prophet (Gen 20:7). Had the rich
man believed the book of Genesis he would've listened to Abraham instead
of arguing with him.

What can be supposed ever happened to the five brothers? Well; they
believed neither Moses nor the Prophets; so I think it's safe to assume the
worst: their fate was the same as the brother who went before them.

FAQ: So there's an afterlife. What am I supposed to do about it?

A: Initiate a rapport with heaven. This is done via mediator.

● 1Tim 2:5-6 . . For there is one God and one mediator between God and
men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave himself as a ransom for all men

Simply find a private moment to speak up and tell Jesus that you're aware
there's an afterlife and that that you're concerned about coming out on the
wrong side of it. That'll get the ball rolling.

Be assured that your concern, if it's honest, won't end up in the round file.

● John 6:37 . . All that the Father gives me shall come to me, and the one
who comes to me I will certainly not cast out.
_

 

[Earburner]

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The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_

Hellooooo, its a parable!! A fictitious STORY, that contains a specific truth to be learned.
Do you believe Aesop's Fables to be literally true also?

 

[Webers_Home]

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Jonah took ship from Joppa to travel to the city of Tarshish (Jonah 1:3).
That city's exact location is contested; but I think most folk would agree that
it lay somewhere in the direction of Spain. Anyway we can at least be pretty
sure that Jonah's rendezvous with the big fish took place in the
Mediterranean Sea.

Jonah's preaching was very successful in Nineveh; and Jesus specifically
credited the prophet's success to his experience with the fish. (Matt 12:39
41)

Well the thing is; Nineveh's ruins are eleven miles north of Mosul Iraq, which
itself is roughly 406 miles inland from the Mediterranean Sea as the crow
flies. So my question is: How were the Ninevites aware that Jonah was a
man back from dead if the city didn't actually observed him come ashore
from the fish's mouth?

Somehow, in some way, the people of Nineveh were aware that Jonah
survived drowning and digestion in a fish's tummy; a survival that could only
be explained by an honest-to-gosh miracle. So when Jonah went round
about the city threatening it with destruction; nobody mocked, nobody
jested, and nobody poked fun-- instead, everybody got really scared;
including their king, and as everybody familiar with the book of Nahum
knows, the citizens of Nineveh were a really brutal people not easily
intimidated.

This all tells me that Jonah's experience with the fish wasn't a contingency.
It was in the plan all along, though the prophet likely didn't know it, because
God needed something very persuasive to get those people's attention.

Well; Jonah's recovery worked for Nineveh, but some people are as dense as
the wall of China.

● Luke 16:27-31 . .The rich man said: I beg you, Father, that you send
Lazarus to my father's house-- for I have five brothers --that he may warn
them, lest they also come to this place of torment.

. . . But Abraham said: They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear
them. But he said: No, Father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from
the dead, they will repent! But Abraham said to him: If they do not listen to
Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be persuaded if someone rises
from the dead.
_

 

[bbyrd009]

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The comments and questions below are relative to Luke 16:19-31.

How is it that the rich man and Abraham were able to see from their own
grave into each other's grave? Do dead people have X-ray vision? Do they
have any vision at all let alone X-ray?

Do dead people actually have the ability to communicate with other dead
people? You'd think that dead people would be deaf and mute seeing as how
they're deceased and no longer sentient.

What is the nature of the barrier that existed between Abraham's grave and
the rich man's grave? The story suggests dead people could, and would, visit
one another's graves were it not for the barrier separating them.

From whence did the rich man assume that Lazarus could fetch water? Was
Lazarus' grave adjacent to an aquifer or some such?

The story suggests that Abraham and Lazarus shared the same grave, i.e.
Lazarus' corpse was laid to rest with Abraham's corpse.

The story tells that Lazarus' pall bearers were angels. Is that common, or
was Lazarus' funeral a special event?
_

Lazarus is not a real person, and is better contemplated in the context of "Eleazer," surely?

Something I've been curious about for some time now is why the rich man in
Luke's narrative arrived in a place of flame and torment while the poor man
was taken to a place of comfort.

no narrative, parable, i guess mentioned already yeh

why would someone in flames and torment ask for a drop of water to cool their "tongue," do you think?

 

[bbyrd009]

Lazarus is not a real person, and is better contemplated in the context of "Eleazer," surely?

The amazing name Lazarus: meaning and etymology
The amazing name Eliezer: meaning and etymology

 

[Jennifer]

Though solomon possessed really great wisdom, when I read the eccleiastes, I don't hear solomon speaking in there, it sounds more like Jesus and the life expierences he went through..I know solomon was famous for his great wisdom but Jesus grew in wisdom too, and his wisdom was beyond natural..he spoke in a unique way that proved he was full of the holy spirit, had authority and was the true son of God but what's spoken in the eccliastes sounds like someone who went through some sad life expierences and how he found out nothing really matters in life but accept things for what they are and to live etc.. it sounds more like Jesus then Solomon though if you read it really carefully...either way it's one of the deepest book of the Bible..etc...either way they both had divine wisdom God...

 

[Mungo]

To those commenting on Webers_Home posts - he never engages in dialogue.
If you read more of his stuff you will find he is just preaching not debating.
Just ignore him.

 

[farouk]

Though solomon possessed really great wisdom, when I read the eccleiastes, I don't hear solomon speaking in there, it sounds more like Jesus and the life expierences he went through..I know solomon was famous for his great wisdom but Jesus grew in wisdom too, and his wisdom was beyond natural..he spoke in a unique way that proved he was full of the holy spirit, had authority and was the true son of God but what's spoken in the eccliastes sounds like someone who went through some sad life expierences and how he found out nothing really matters in life but accept things for what they are and to live etc.. it sounds more like Jesus then Solomon though if you read it really carefully...either way it's one of the deepest book of the Bible..etc...either way they both had divine wisdom God...

Proverbs 8 is remarkable, wisdom personified; reminds me of Paul to the Corinthians, writing of 'Christ Jesus, Who of God is made unto us wisdom'...

 

[farouk]

Though solomon possessed really great wisdom, when I read the eccleiastes, I don't hear solomon speaking in there, it sounds more like Jesus and the life expierences he went through..I know solomon was famous for his great wisdom but Jesus grew in wisdom too, and his wisdom was beyond natural..he spoke in a unique way that proved he was full of the holy spirit, had authority and was the true son of God but what's spoken in the eccliastes sounds like someone who went through some sad life expierences and how he found out nothing really matters in life but accept things for what they are and to live etc.. it sounds more like Jesus then Solomon though if you read it really carefully...either way it's one of the deepest book of the Bible..etc...either way they both had divine wisdom God...

@Jennifer I saw a book, the title of which is: Ecclesiastes, and the Responses of the New Testament...

In other words, Ecclesiastes sets out the scene and poses the riddles...and the New Testament answers them...

 

[Jennifer]

@Jennifer I saw a book, the title of which is: Ecclesiastes, and the Responses of the New Testament...

In other words, Ecclesiastes sets out the scene and poses the riddles...and the New Testament answers them...

What do you mean?