Hell for not getting baptized by water

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Angelina

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I am not debating on the finer points of the law, on the contrary...I am bringing forth revelation by the word of God, that those who are of faith are those who are Abraham's descendants and it is by faith that one is saved by confession and believing

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

...there is no other requirement for those who are considered "Gentile believer's." [such as we are] :)

Shalom!!!
 

Selene

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Angelina said:
Selene's post


Selene, you are incorrect in your understanding of this matter - the baptism Paul speaks of in the above passage, is the Baptism of Christ's death and resurrection.

The message of repentance that John preached was for Israel:

Acts 13:
He gave testimony and said, ‘I have found David the son of Jesse, a man after My own heart, who will do all My will.’ 23 From this man’s seed, according to the promise, God raised up for Israel a Savior—Jesus—24 after John had first preached, before His coming, the baptism of repentance to all the people of Israel. 25 And as John was finishing his course, he said, ‘Who do you think I am? I am not He. But behold, there comes One after me, the sandals of whose feet I am not worthy to loose.’

Jesus came for the Lost sheep Israel

Matthew 15:24 The Gentile woman's plea
24 But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25 Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26 But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27 And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”


Gentile believers were exempt from the Promises given to Israel

11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh—who are called Uncircumcision by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands— 12 that at that time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.

...but brought near by the blood of Jesus

19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the saints and members of the household of God, 20 having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone, 21 in whom the whole building, being fitted together, grows into a holy temple in the Lord, 22 in whom you also are being built together for a dwelling place of God in the Spirit.

by faith....and a promise given to Abraham 430 years before the law came in. Gal 3:17

Galatians 3
6 Consider Abraham: “He believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.” 7 Understand, then, that those who believe are children of Abraham. 8 The Scripture foresaw that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, and announced the gospel in advance to Abraham: “All nations will be blessed through you.”9 So those who have faith are blessed along with Abraham, the man of faith.


22 But the Scripture has confined all under sin, that the promise by faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe. 23 But before faith came, we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.


Circumcision Acts 15
Conflict arose between Paul and teacher's of the Law from Judea who professed that unless the Gentile believer's were circumcised according to the custom of Moses, they cannot be saved. Paul and Barnabus went to the Council of Jerusalem to have this matter clarified. After their much deliberation, a letter was given to them from the Council stating:

The apostles, the elders, and the brethren,
To the brethren who are of the Gentiles in Antioch, Syria, and Cilicia:


Greetings.
24 Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, “You must be circumcised and keep the law” —to whom we gave no such commandment— 25 it seemed good to us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 men who have risked their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have therefore sent Judas and Silas, who will also report the same things by word of mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

Farewell.


It is clear, based on the above passages that circumcision was also not a requirement for salvation and therefore cannot be a shadow of baptism by water as you have suggested...

Shalom!!!

First of all, you are incorrect to say that circumcision is not a requirement for salvation. In the first place, God commanded Abraham and his male descendants to circumcise themselves as part of the covenant between God and Israel. Those who were disobedient to God's command were cut off from God and the people of Israel. They are not God's chosen people. Any disobedience to God is a sin and separates the person from God, who is salvation. Just look at what happened to Adam and Eve when they disobeyed God. Did they gain salvation through their disobedience? In the same way, the Israelite who disobeyed God's covenant of circumcision was also cut off from salvation.

Disobedience to any of God's commandments separates one from God. Christ already stated that those who believe and are baptized will be saved and those who do not believe will not be saved. So, we already know what happens to those who believe and are baptized, but what happens to those who believe and are NOT baptized?? God is the one to judge those believers, so it is up to Him to deal with them. How do you believe in Jesus Christ? Is it not by being obedient to Him?

Furthermore, St. Paul linked baptism to circumcision. Baptism is the circumcision of the heart, in which one is born again and becomes a new creature in Christ. You make it so easy to go to Heaven because according to you all you need to do is confess "I believe in Jesus Christ." But what did Christ say?? According to Christ, "It's easier for a camel to go through a needle's eye than for a man to enter the kingdom of God?" In fact, Christ also said that the way to Heaven is through a narrow and crooked road. Does this sound like it's easy to get into God's kingdom? Of course not. To say, "I believe in God" is not enough. If one truly believes in God, they would obey His will. And His will is to follow Him because He is the Way to salvation.

So, Christ allowed Himself to be baptized at the Jordan River despite the fact that He did not need to be baptized, and that is good enough for me. He also allowed His Apostles to baptize others, and that is good enough for me. This is what we should follow because Christ did not abandoned baptism. In fact, the Apostles continued to baptize even after Christ resurrected and ascended into Heaven.

Under this thread, Ryan quoted all the scripture showing the importance of baptism. Obedience to God is how we show our faith, trust, and belief in Him. Scripture shows that "faith alone" is unbiblical In other words, faith and works (ex. obedience to God) go together hand in hand, not separately.

James 2:24 You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.




 

Angelina

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Circumcision is not a requirement for salvation for those who have been saved by grace through faith. Circumcision was not a requirement for salvation for the Gentiles being saved during the days of Acts. :huh:

Shalom!!!
 

Groundzero

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I don't go to church because I decided to Seek God in my home, I wanted to read the bible and pray privately, So I never got baptized by water. Id like a straight up yes or no answer, Will I be sent to hell if I never get baptized?

and state the reason why please

Thank you
Yes.

If you read through Scripture, you will find that you NEED to be baptised. Therefore, according to the epistle of James, if you know to do good, and do it not, it becomes sin. Sin will NEVER make it into heaven.

Angelina said:
Baptism is not essential to salvation...nor will it ever be...

"The way" was a new concept to many Judaic Jews who converted. Baptism was not a new thing to them however. Baptism of repentance was John's Baptism. We are Gentile believer's not Judaic Jews. Our only requirement was to confess and believe, by faith. That is all.

Shalom!!! ^_^
Baptism is essential to salvation. Salvation isn't a clear cut glass where we point in and say, it's at that point we are saved. It's like a diamond, with many different faces through which we can look. Salvation isn't just confession. Salvation isn't just belief. Salvation isn't just baptism. Salvation isn't just living a holy life. Salvation is ALL these things (and more) combined.

If we want to find the way to get saved, we should be looking where the church actually started, not at epistles written to people ALREADY saved. There is ONE book in the Bible that records the start of the Church, Acts, and pretty much EVERY instance of someone being saved includes baptism in Jesus' name.
If we want to find the right way to be saved (and there's only one way) we need to be looking in the right place.
 

Angelina

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Baptism is a symbol. It is not necessary for salvation. Jesus was baptized to fulfill the requirement of the Law because he was born under the law and for him to fulfill that law, it required him to do all that the law requires. Gentiles were not subject to the the Mosaic Law. Therefore, when they became saved, they did not need to follow something the Jews followed all their customary lives under the law. All that was required of them from the council at Jerusalem was that they should:

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

and from the word of God:

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Shalom!!!
 

Arnie Manitoba

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Inmate said:
I don't go to church because I decided to Seek God in my home, I wanted to read the bible and pray privately, So I never got baptized by water. Id like a straight up yes or no answer, Will I be sent to hell if I never get baptized?

and state the reason why please

Thank you
.
Again I say NO ...... ... if you are an un-baptized Christian beleiver you will not go to hell.

But I think the proper question(s) should be ...

--- if you are a Christian who wants to be publically baptized ..... ask yourself why

--- or if you are a Christian who decides not to be baptized ...... how come ?

Those are personal decisions you alone should be making .... it has nothing to do with us .... just like Christianity is a personal and individual decision.

The best way to make your personal decision is to read the portions of the bible about baptism and go from there.
 

Angelina

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I agree with you here Arnie,
It is a personal thing...

Inmate, salvation is a free gift. The bible clearly states that if we confess and believe, we shall be saved. We did not earn it nor are we ever able to acquire it through any ritualistic process. :huh:

If salvation required more than what Jesus did for us on the cross, then we are basically saying that his perfect, sinless sacrifice was not enough.

Baptism is a shadow of what Jesus did for us on the cross. Baptism represents Christ's death and resurrection, his position on the right hand of the Father and the sending forth of the promised Holy Spirit to dwell in believers unto eternity. 1 Peter 3:21.

Baptisms are partaken and celebrated in churches on a regular basis. Although Christ has come, these observances are still highly regarded in many churches...and will continue until Christ comes again. It is a conscience issue and an outward acknowledgment of our commitment and desire to serve God. It is also a good witness to our family and friends that we have chosen to follow Jesus, that is all... ^_^

Bless you!!!
 

Groundzero

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Angelina said:
Baptism is a symbol. It is not necessary for salvation. Jesus was baptized to fulfill the requirement of the Law because he was born under the law and for him to fulfill that law, it required him to do all that the law requires. Gentiles were not subject to the the Mosaic Law. Therefore, when they became saved, they did not need to follow something the Jews followed all their customary lives under the law. All that was required of them from the council at Jerusalem was that they should:

Acts 15
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things: 29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

and from the word of God:

Romans 10:8-10
8 But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith which we preach): 9 that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Shalom!!!
Jesus said that if one loves him, he will do what Jesus commands. The great Commission is quite clear what we are to be teaching. Baptism for the remission of sins is part of it.

Once again, you take scripture that was written to those ALREADY saved.

Why, in acts 2:38, did Paul say that they HAVE to be baptised in Jesus name FOR the REMISSION of sins? If all they had to do, was believe??? Don't you think it would be easier for the 3,000 people to just confess and believe in Jesus? Yes! But that's not what Jesus wanted. He wanted to see our faith become actions. I could find multiple cases which prove that salvation includes baptism.
 

Angelina

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Why, in acts 2:38, did Paul say that they HAVE to be baptised in Jesus name FOR the REMISSION of sins? If all they had to do, was believe???
Baptism for remission of sins is the baptism of repentance. This is John's baptism which was a shadow...It was Peter who said that and not Paul. Peter was speaking directly to the devout Jews from every Nation under Heaven. Acts 2:5
Acts 1
5 For John baptized with water,but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

The baptism that Peter and the Apostles underwent, was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They did not undergo a water baptism.

Don't you think it would be easier for the 3,000 people to just confess and believe in Jesus? Yes! But that's not what Jesus wanted. He wanted to see our faith become actions. I could find multiple cases which prove that salvation includes baptism.
The Gentiles were being baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were baptized by water as well. The Holy Spirit is a sign that one is saved. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption.

There is no other requirement for salvation other than "confess and believe." this is done by faith and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act 2:38

Jesus said that if one loves him, he will do what Jesus commands. The great Commission is quite clear what we are to be teaching. Baptism for the remission of sins is part of it.
Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

BTW: Paul was not a member of the Eleven at this time. His ministry to the Gentiles had not began yet. I suggest that this baptism may possibly be one of repentance which was commissioned toward the Jews from all Nations under the heavens. Acts 2:5

If salvation required more than what Jesus did for us on the cross, then we are basically saying that his perfect, sinless sacrifice was not enough. :huh:


Shalom!!!
 

Rex

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ZebraHug said:
Jesus said that if one loves him, he will do what Jesus commands. The great Commission is quite clear what we are to be teaching. Baptism for the remission of sins is part of it.

Once again, you take scripture that was written to those ALREADY saved.

Why, in acts 2:38, did Paul say that they HAVE to be baptised in Jesus name FOR the REMISSION of sins? If all they had to do, was believe??? Don't you think it would be easier for the 3,000 people to just confess and believe in Jesus? Yes! But that's not what Jesus wanted. He wanted to see our faith become actions. I could find multiple cases which prove that salvation includes baptism.
In spite of the clear evidence of two baptisms its amazing people just don't bother to look at which one or at what time distinguishes the two.

Key Clues "to be baptized in Jesus name" not John or by water "repentance"
You highlighted the other clue and ignored the definition of remission


re·mis·sion
/riˈmiSHən/
Noun
  1. The cancellation of a debt, charge, or penalty.
It was Peter not Paul and Peter recognized that those Jews who were baptized by water had received the HS.
The Jews and Israel were all under the law the old covenant, Johns baptism prepared the way to receive the new covenant.
just like Moses first struck the rock and water came out "the HS" we don't see a change in venue until Moses was told to speak to the rock and water "the HS" would come out. The manifestation of this shadow is seen in acts chapter 10 when Cornelius and the Gentiles heard by Peter speaking and the HS poured out living water.

The Jews and Israel drank first from the rock that was struck later the Gentiles drank first from the rock that was supposed to have be spoken to by Moses.
I find it interesting that errors are continued to be made just as Moses did, and teach that the spoken word to the rock is of no value. Some of you may understand what I'm saying. Peter himself was not satisfied with them receiving the spirit but commanded they be baptized after the fact. Consider this as well Peters opening statement to the Gentiles, those who had no covenant with God such as did Israel.
Acts 10:24
So then Peter opened his mouth
Truly I understand that God shows no partiality Gen 22:18

Just as God provided water from the rock twice in the wilderness so we also see water from the same rock in acts, the first unto Israel the second unto the gentiles. One was by striking one was by speaking. Don't make the same mistake Moses made and insist the rock be struck a second time. The preparatory baptism of John was to the Jews.
 

Selene

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Angelina said:
Circumcision is not a requirement for salvation for those who have been saved by grace through faith. Circumcision was not a requirement for salvation for the Gentiles being saved during the days of Acts. :huh:

Shalom!!!
Circumcision was not required by the Gentiles because baptism replaced it.


Arnie Manitoba said:
.
Again I say NO ...... ... if you are an un-baptized Christian beleiver you will not go to hell.

But I think the proper question(s) should be ...

--- if you are a Christian who wants to be publically baptized ..... ask yourself why

--- or if you are a Christian who decides not to be baptized ...... how come ?

Those are personal decisions you alone should be making .... it has nothing to do with us .... just like Christianity is a personal and individual decision.

The best way to make your personal decision is to read the portions of the bible about baptism and go from there.


Baptism is not a personal choice according to this scripture:

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Christ made it clear that those who believe and is baptize shall be saved. So, what happens to the believer who is not baptized? God will be the one to judge them. It is God's will that Christians be baptized. If it is not God's will, then why did He send His Apostles, telling them to baptize all nations in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

There is only ONE baptism, and it is a baptism that Christ underwent at the Jordan River.....a baptism of both water and spirit.
 

Angelina

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selene's quote:
Circumcision was not required by the Gentiles because baptism replaced it.
Please show me in scripture where it says that Baptism [which is a shadow] replaced circumcision [which is also a shadow]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
The only way one can be damned is to be absent of the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption. It is therefore "obvious" that this baptism is associated with the Holy Spirit baptism since water cannot save anyone....

Selene's quote"
There is only ONE baptism, and it is a baptism that Christ underwent at the Jordan River.....a baptism of both water and spirit.
That is true...there is only one baptism but many shadows, ie: how many temple shadows can you find in the bible? :huh:

Water baptism is a shadow of the real thing....the real thing is,"Baptism of the Holy Spirit." :)

Shalom!!!
 

Selene

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Angelina said:
selene's quote:

Please show me in scripture where it says that Baptism [which is a shadow] replaced circumcision [which is also a shadow]


The only way one can be damned is to be absent of the Holy Spirit since the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption. It is therefore "obvious" that this baptism is associated with the Holy Spirit baptism since water cannot save anyone....

Selene's quote"

That is true...there is only one baptism but many shadows, ie: how many temple shadows can you find in the bible? :huh:

Water baptism is a shadow of the real thing....the real thing is,"Baptism of the Holy Spirit." :)

Shalom!!!
There is only one baptism (See Ephesians 4:5). We believe in only one baptism, and Christ is our role model whom we should follow. Christ allowed Himself to be baptized at the Jordan River despite that He did not need to be baptized. At the Jordan River, He was baptized by water and by the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove, and God declared "This is my Son whom I am well pleased." This is the kind of baptism that Christians should follow. When we are baptized in the water, the Holy Spirit also descends upon us and God's voice declares us His son or daughter, making us part of His family.

Both water and spirit are required for salvation and that is shown in the Holy Bible:

1. When Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, God sent the Apostle Peter to baptize him and his entire household with water (See Acts 10:47).

2. When St. Paul met some disciples who were baptized only with water, He gave them the Holy Spirit through the laying of the hands (See Acts 19:1-6).

As shown in the Bible, the believer must have BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT. This is what Jesus meant when He stated: "No one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit." In here, Christ was actually referring to baptism.

At the Jordan River, St. John the Baptist was baptizing people for the repentance of sins. As he immersed people into the Jordan River, all the sins of the people were washed in that river. Then along comes Jesus who asked John to baptize Him despite the fact that He did not need to be baptized. But Christ did it to show us something significant. At the Jordan River, as Christ was immersed into the waters, He took all the sins of the people that were in that water upon Himself (for that was what He came to do). Christ being immersed into the dark waters symbolized His death on the cross as He took upon Himself all the sins of the people. Christ rising from the dark waters symbolized His resurrection and victory over death. This is what St. Paul meant:

Col. 2:11-12 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with [him] through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

In this biblical verse, you are correct when you say that baptism of Christ is His death and resurrection. Yet, as you can see in that same verse, St. Paul linked baptism with circumcision. St. Paul mentioned "circumcision of Christ." In the Old Testament, the covenant between God and the people of Israel is a circumcision of the flesh. But in the above verse, St. Paul speaks of a circumcision of Christ, and St. Paul often also speaks of a circumcision of the heart (See Romans 2:29). This circumcision of Christ or circumcision of the heart is baptism. Christ came to circumcise our hearts so that we are made anew....a new creation in Christ. Gone is the old circumcision of the Old Testament for it has been replaced with something better.

Romans 4:11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which [he had yet] being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:

This NEW sign of circumcision is baptism....a baptism of both water and spirit. Water.....to cleanse the sins so that the old sinful person in us would die.....and spirit.......to make us into a new creature and one with Christ.
 

Angelina

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I think that your belief will never allow you to understand the things that are from the Spirit, revelation of God's truth through his word. :unsure:


There is only one baptism (See Ephesians 4:5). We believe in only one baptism, and Christ is our role model whom we should follow. Christ allowed Himself to be baptized at the Jordan River despite that He did not need to be baptized.
...as I have said before, he did this so that he could fulfill the requirements of the law.

At the Jordan River, He was baptized by water and by the Holy Spirit as the Holy Spirit descended upon Him in the form of a dove, and God declared "This is my Son whom I am well pleased." This is the kind of baptism that Christians should follow. When we are baptized in the water, the Holy Spirit also descends upon us and God's voice declares us His son or daughter, making us part of His family.
This was the beginning of his ministry, he was baptized with the Holy Spirit as he also followed what was required of him through the law in preparation for the things to come - Death on the cross

There is no-where in the bible that states that the Apostles and followers of Jesus were baptized by water before receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. None of those 120 followers in the upper-room waiting upon the Holy Spirit, where stated as being baptized by water first.

1. When Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, God sent the Apostle Peter to baptize him and his entire household with water (See Acts 10:47).
That happened after they received the Holy Spirit, not before. Please remember also, that Peter was sent to the Jews and would therefore preach baptism of repentance by water because John's baptism was for the Jews not the Gentiles. Although, I suspect that Cornelius was probably not a Jew.

2. When St. Paul met some disciples who were baptized only with water, He gave them the Holy Spirit through the laying of the hands (See Acts 19:1-6).
What does that tell you... :huh:

As shown in the Bible, the believer must have BOTH WATER AND SPIRIT. This is what Jesus meant when He stated: "No one can enter the Kingdom of God without being born of water and spirit." In here, Christ was actually referring to baptism.
John 3
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

He is born of water just as we are also born of water but that does not mean that this verse is speaking about baptism. If you have understood the way most bibles are set out, the S in Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit and the s - our spirit. I believe that it speaks more about cleansing - the washing with water through the word...as spoken in Ephes 5 relating to Christ and the Church. This verse speaks about cleansing, not a physical cleansing but one of the heart/ conscience.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all,the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Shalom and blessings!!! ^_^
 

Rex

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Selenes religion only gives half the story, sprinkle people with a little water and tell them, that's it you have the HS

An other half story is the Eucharist or communion as its known, its only half a communion they never include wine or juice "un-fermented wine".
Jesus commemorated with both bread "body" and wine "blood" to only serve half is IMO not a very fitting act in remembrance of the Lord.

So it comes as no surprised to me they don't teach a spiritual baptism, encouraging and leading to the opening of ears and eyes; the receiving of the HS is apparently not on the churches todo list. As well as a complete communion.
 

Groundzero

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Angelina said:
Baptism for remission of sins is the baptism of repentance. This is John's baptism which was a shadow...It was Peter who said that and not Paul. Peter was speaking directly to the devout Jews from every Nation under Heaven. Acts 2:5
Acts 1
5 For John baptized with water,but in a few days you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.”

The baptism that Peter and the Apostles underwent, was the Baptism of the Holy Spirit. They did not undergo a water baptism.

The Gentiles were being baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were baptized by water as well. The Holy Spirit is a sign that one is saved. The Holy Spirit is the guarantee of our redemption.

There is no other requirement for salvation other than "confess and believe." this is done by faith and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. Act 2:38

Matthew 28
16 Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

BTW: Paul was not a member of the Eleven at this time. His ministry to the Gentiles had not began yet. I suggest that this baptism may possibly be one of repentance which was commissioned toward the Jews from all Nations under the heavens. Acts 2:5

If salvation required more than what Jesus did for us on the cross, then we are basically saying that his perfect, sinless sacrifice was not enough. :huh:


Shalom!!!
Oops. I think I must have been tired. It was Peter sorry. :/ lolz.

Peter was following the great Commission that Jesus laid out.

Cornelius was NOT a Jew, yet Peter baptised him and his whole family! Baptism isn't just for the Jews. It's for the Gentiles as well.


Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.
Act 10:45 And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.
Act 10:46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,
Act 10:47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
Act 10:48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.


Jesus' commission:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Mat 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world.

I could also use the one from Mark, which you know very well. But I don't think that's necessary. Jesus' instructions were to teach ALL nations, BAPTISING them in THE NAME of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
This is not the baptism of the Holy Ghost, because man cannot do that. This is full-water immersion, and it's as relevant today as it was back then.
And if we move down a verse, we find that not only were they to baptise, but they were to TEACH THEM TO OBSERVE (follow) ALL things thart Jesus had commanded them. What had Jesus just commanded? To baptise in his name!

Now you make mention of Paul. Let me pull up this verse about Paul and what he had to do with baptism.

Act 19:3 And he said unto them, Unto what then were ye baptized? And they said, Unto John's baptism.
Act 19:4 Then said Paul, John verily baptized with the baptism of repentance, saying unto the people, that they should believe on him which should come after him, that is, on Christ Jesus.
Act 19:5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
Act 19:6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied.


I pose this question to the audience, if CONFESSION OF FAITH is ALL we need to be saved, then why did Paul, upon hearing that they had NOT been baptised in Jesus' name, immediately compel them to be baptised?

You reasoning at the end is wrong. JESUS made a way for us to be saved. But we won't get saved just by sitting on our backsides hoping we'll be saved. Here's a short analogy.

A man was drifting out at sea on a piece of wreckage after his ship went down. Day after day he prayed for God to deliver him.
One day, a submarine passed by, and offered to give him a life. "Swim over!" They said.
"No!" said the man, "God is going to save me!"
By and by, a ship came past, and said, "Swim over!"

"No!" said the man, "God is going to save me!"
Eventually, he got depressed, and cried out, "God! I've prayed and prayed, why am I still floating out here?"
God said, "You fool, I sent a boat and a submarine."

God's provided salvation. But he wants to see how much we actually trust him. REAL faith, says, "I believe you, Jesus, and I know that if I follow your commandments, that I will be saved." It's amazing how something so simple as baptism, has so many people kicking against the pricks. Dear friends, what is so hard about it?

I constantly hear, "Oh, but that's completely unnecessary."
Yep. Well so was dipping in the disgusting, muddy, smelly Jordan river, but it was the ONLY way that Naaman would have ever been healed. Oh, did I mention, he had to do it seven times?! What!? How pointless!!! We all laugh at him and point the finger, saying, "How foolish. It's so simple!" when we ourselves do the EXACT same thing.

The history book of the early church, Acts, outlines time and time again how one is saved. To look elsewhere and ignore Acts is madness.
 

Angelina

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Cornelius was NOT a Jew, yet Peter baptised him and his whole family! Baptism isn't just for the Jews. It's for the Gentiles as well.

not the point...this family was baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were given Johns baptism which John preached only to the Jews....although this family were not Jews, baptism by water was the order of the day for the Jews. It was not necessary but they did it anyway.

I think we have covered all the above already and I honestly don't want to go over old ground for someone who is popping in and out.
Please read the whole thread so that you can catch up to where we are...

Thank you! :)
 

Selene

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Angelina said:
not the point...this family was baptized with the Holy Spirit before they were given Johns baptism which John preached only to the Jews....although this family were not Jews, baptism by water was the order of the day for the Jews. It was not necessary but they did it anyway.

I think we have covered all the above already and I honestly don't want to go over old ground for someone who is popping in and out.
Please read the whole thread so that you can catch up to where we are...

Thank you! :)
That is the point. It is true that Cornelius received the Holy Spirit, but God sent the Apostle Peter to have Cornelius baptize with water.
 

Angelina

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but God sent the Apostle Peter to have Cornelius baptize with water.
...no he didn't. God sent Peter to preach the Gospel to them. The Holy Spirit fell on those who heard and then Peter said: Acts 10:47

...because Peter was still baptizing by water should give you the understanding that he was following John's baptism of repentance. He is a Jew. When Paul began to minister to the Gentile nation, he only baptized 2 people who were Jews and a family. He did not baptize anyone else because he was called to preach the Gospel...that was all :)

Shalom!!!
 

Selene

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Angelina said:
I think that your belief will never allow you to understand the things that are from the Spirit, revelation of God's truth through his word. :unsure:


...as I have said before, he did this so that he could fulfill the requirements of the law.


This was the beginning of his ministry, he was baptized with the Holy Spirit as he also followed what was required of him through the law in preparation for the things to come - Death on the cross

There is no-where in the bible that states that the Apostles and followers of Jesus were baptized by water before receiving the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. None of those 120 followers in the upper-room waiting upon the Holy Spirit, where stated as being baptized by water first.


That happened after they received the Holy Spirit, not before. Please remember also, that Peter was sent to the Jews and would therefore preach baptism of repentance by water because John's baptism was for the Jews not the Gentiles. Although, I suspect that Cornelius was probably not a Jew.

What does that tell you... :huh:


John 3
5 Jesus answered, “I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

He is born of water just as we are also born of water but that does not mean that this verse is speaking about baptism. If you have understood the way most bibles are set out, the S in Spirit refers to the Holy Spirit and the s - our spirit. I believe that it speaks more about cleansing - the washing with water through the word...as spoken in Ephes 5 relating to Christ and the Church. This verse speaks about cleansing, not a physical cleansing but one of the heart/ conscience.

1 Peter 3
18 For Christ died for sins once for all,the righteous for the unrighteous, to bring you to God. He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, 19 through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison 20 who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark was being built. In it only a few people, eight in all, were saved through water, 21 and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, 22 who has gone into heaven and is at God’s right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.


Shalom and blessings!!! ^_^
All the Apostles were baptized with water before Pentecost because they followed Jesus. And this is what Christ said to them:

Mark 16:16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned.

The Apostles knew that Christ allowed Himself to be baptized and after hearing this, they also got themselves baptized because they follow Christ. This is what it means to be a follower of Christ.

Furthermore, Christ allowed His disciples to baptize others (John 4:1). After Christ ascended into Heaven, the Apostles continued to baptize with water (Acts 8:38). Baptism is not of the Old Testament. It is of the New Testament because it was started by St. John the Baptist. In the Old Testament, Circumcision was a sign between God and the people of Israel. Those who were circumcised were God's chosen people. Baptism replaced circumcision in the New Testament. It became a sign between Christians and God. Those who were baptized belong to God's family. They are the sons and daughters of God. They were baptized NOT with John's baptism......but with the same baptism as Christ.

After Pentecost, St. Peter spoke up: "Repent and be baptized everyone one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38). In this passage, St. Peter was clearly not speaking about John's baptism. He was speaking of a baptism in the name of Jesus Christ....he was referring to Christ's baptism....a baptism of water and spirit. By receiving this baptism, they not only receive the forgiveness of sins, but also the conferring of the Holy Spirit.




Angelina said:
...no he didn't. God sent Peter to preach the Gospel to them. The Holy Spirit fell on those who heard and then Peter said: Acts 10:47

...because Peter was still baptizing by water should give you the understanding that he was following John's baptism of repentance. He is a Jew. When Paul began to minister to the Gentile nation, he only baptized 2 people who were Jews and a family. He did not baptize anyone else because he was called to preach the Gospel...that was all :)

Shalom!!!
No, God sent Peter to baptize them with water.

Acts 10:47-48 Can anyone withhold the water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit even as we have? He ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

It is not John's baptism that the Apostles were baptizing in. It is Christ's baptism.
 
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