Hey Riven, May I ask?

[Angelina]

@Riven
May I ask you if you have ever had encounters with other Christians ie: family or friends and also, why you have decided to join a Christian forum now? I'd love to know. Also, you are an agnostic is the right? what do agnostics believe? I am curious...

Thank you

 

[Riven]

@Riven
May I ask you if you have ever had encounters with other Christians ie: family or friends and also, why you have decided to join a Christian forum now? I'd love to know. Also, you are an agnostic is the right? what do agnostics believe? I am curious...

Thank you

Yes. I went to a Christian private school in the early 2000's. I joined a Christian forum because there aren't many decent forums left in general. They're a bit of a relic from a bygone era. But I like them more than the alternatives.

I am agnostic. We are famous for saying "I don't know" to the big questions. The origin of the universe, the existence of God, what happens after you die, etc.

We're a little disturbed by the level of certainty that both the Christians and athesists have in their beliefs. The athesists view us as "fence sitters", and tend to sneer at us. Whereas the Christians tend to view us as a potential Christian because we're technically undecided. The interactions can be a little awkward at times, but they're generally more friendly than the atheists, I think.

Sometimes I simplify it and just say I believe agnostics are descended from Hercules.

 

[Angelina]

So you didn't get much closer to the Lord as a student in a Christian private school? What the biggest hurdle for you regarding believing that God is real and that he exists in the world today as he has since the beginning? @Riven. Your parents were possible believers then...

 

[Riven]

So you didn't get much closer to the Lord as a student in a Christian private school? What the biggest hurdle for you regarding believing that God is real and that he exists in the world today as he has since the beginning? @Riven. Your parents were possible believers then...

No, I didn't get any closer to the Lord as a result of going to a Christian School. We had chapel every Wednesday, and I would listen to every word that was spoken by a handful of pastors that were also teachers at the school.

I didnt allow my mind to wander because I genuinely envied what my cheistian peers had. They seemed very happy in their faith, and I couldn't understand why there was this mental block that seemed exclusive to me.

The biggest block for me is both the bible and God himself. The biblical stories jist don't make sense to me. Especially the stories contained in the Old Testament. In many ways, I view Genesis as a sort of litmus test.

Many Christians I know read Genesis and it made complete sense to them. However, when I read Genesis, I felt like I just read a chapter of the Chronicles of Narnia. It made me disinclined to read anything beyond that chapter. As someone that went to public school for most of his life, and was educated in the sciences, I couldn't get past the very obvious inaccuracies that exist within the text.

My parents were never Christians as far as I can tell. We did not go to church when I was a child. While I think there always was a general belief in God, my stepdad was the only one that was Catholic and I respect him for that. When my mother asked for a divorce, he genuinely didn't believe in the concept. Again, I can't express enough my admiration for the man. Truly.

After my brother died in 1998, my grandparents, who had custody of me at the time because of the extreme circumstances, decided to begin attending church services at a Baptist church a few miles from where we lived. I initially went along, but I hated it. I wanted nothing to do with the church or God at the time. I eventually convinced then to let me stay home, and they also eventually stopped attending the church.

 

[Angelina]

I didnt allow my mind to wander because I genuinely envied what my cheistian peers had. They seemed very happy in their faith, and I couldn't understand why there was this mental block that seemed exclusive to me.

Perhaps then it was just a matter of time more than anything. I think you are doing extrodinarly well just being a member of a Christian forum anyway.

After my brother died in 1998, my grandparents, who had custody of me at the time because of the extreme circumstances, decided to begin attending church services at a Baptist church a few miles from where we lived. I initially went along, but I hated it. I wanted nothing to do with the church or God at the time. I eventually convinced then to let me stay home, and they also eventually stopped attending the church.

Well that's sad. At least your grandparents tried and I'm sure it was for your sake that they went anyway. I won't ask you about your "extreme circumstances." That conversation may require a Dm if and when you choose. @Riven, I hope you know we all care about you here @CyB even if we don't understand some things. Ie: why you're not a believer yet. Lol!

 

[Debp]

As someone that went to public school for most of his life, and was educated in the sciences, I couldn't get past the very obvious inaccuracies that exist within the text.

Check out the Institute for Creation Research.... scientists that believe in God.

Home | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org

I went to public schools. But my mother and my grandmother had deep faith in the Lord. My grandma even prayed for healing for anyone that needed it. And when problems came, I saw my mother always praying for God to help her through it.

So I guess I had good Christian role models. Mom and dad sent me to a Presbyterian Church but although they taught us Bible verses in Sunday school, they didn't make the Gospel plain.

But mom and I would also attend Kathryn Kuhlman services...she had healings occur in her services.
I can remember everyone singing the old hymns there with gusto and the presence of God was apparent. It was a place of holiness in God's presence.

But I only understood the Gospel...Christ being my Savior when I was 22. But I always loved Jesus from childhood.

 

[Riven]

Perhaps then it was just a matter of time more than anything. I think you are doing extrodinarly well just being a member of a Christian forum anyway.


Well that's sad. At least your grandparents tried and I'm sure it was for your sake that they went anyway. I won't ask you about your "extreme circumstances." That conversation may require a Dm if and when you choose. @Riven, I hope you know we all care about you here @CyB even if we don't understand some things. Ie: why you're not a believer yet. Lol!

I appreciate it. As for why I'm not a believer, it's probably because it wasn't part of my upbringing. Or maybe it's because I want to see to believe. Having faith in something is taking a risk. More than that, it also has to stand up to adversity. It can't just fall apart the moment you end up in a bad situation.

If I were to ever become a Christian, I would want my beliefs to be built on a solid foundation. Otherwise I'll end up backsliding by rationalizing myself out of it. I'm very good at doing that.

 

[Angelina]

I appreciate it. As for why I'm not a believer, it's probably because it wasn't part of my upbringing. Or maybe it's because I want to see to believe. Having faith in something is taking a risk. More than that, it also has to stand up to adversity. It can't just fall apart the moment you end up in a bad situation.

If I were to ever become a Christian, I would want my beliefs to be built on a solid foundation. Otherwise I'll end up backsliding by rationalizing myself out of it. I'm very good at doing that.

I understand. There are many out there who need to see to believe. Perhaps you may have a divine encounter with the lord some day or he may grant you revelation of truth through his word. I think that being here @CyB would put you in the best position for those encounters to occur as I'm sure you do not have other avenues available!

 

[Debp]

If I were to ever become a Christian, I would want my beliefs to be built on a solid foundation. Otherwise I'll end up backsliding by rationalizing myself out of it. I'm very good at doing that.

And that solid foundation is Jesus Christ.

 

[Debp]

@Riven You might be interested in this video where Charlie Kirk talks about demons and exorcism.
It's a short video.

 

[Angelina]

Following a specific line of critical thinking, based on our DMs and this conversation. @Riven, Let’s say, for the sake of argument, there is no God and death is the end. Then I’ve personally lost nothing, Ive still lived a meaningful life, helped others, and walked with a clear conscience. But if God is real, then I’ve gained everything: forgiveness, purpose, and eternal life through Jesus Christ. It seems to me the greater risk lies in living as though he doesn't exist. Don't you agree?

 

[Riven]

Following a specific line of critical thinking, based on our DMs and this conversation. @Riven, Let’s say, for the sake of argument, there is no God and death is the end. Then I’ve personally lost nothing, Ive still lived a meaningful life, helped others, and walked with a clear conscience.

You'll lose nothing in death, that's true. But you did lose a level of agency over your life while you were alive.

But if God is real, then I’ve gained everything: forgiveness, purpose, and eternal life through Jesus Christ. It seems to me the greater risk lies in living as though he doesn't exist. Don't you agree?

Yes. While I have agency to do things a Christian cannot do, the the trade-off is that I'm wrong and I pay for it in the end. However, I think Christians that are only Christians out of fear, and actually don't love Jesus, are destined to be denied entry to heaven all the same. I'm not saying that's you, but those kinds of Christians do exist.

Finally, I think when it comes to other religions and the likelihood of them being true, we both share the same risk. For example, I suspect we both reject Islam being the only true religion. However, neither of us truly knows for certain. We take a risk in believing it isn't true.

 

[Angelina]

You'll lose nothing in death, that's true. But you did lose a level of agency over your life while you were alive.

Thank you for your reply @Riven. I know I put you on the spot at times but I would like us to have a genuine articulate dialogue about the reasons why we are both here and yet have opposing viewpoints. I don't believe I've lost any level of agency over my life personally since ( like most believers) I have lived in the world at one time. Life changed for me when I chose to believe in something that made sense. Not the idea of accepting salvation out of fear but out of hope. Faith is a funny thing. It believes without any evidence but there is this deep reassurance that resonates within it.

Yes. While I have agency to do things a Christian cannot do, the the trade-off is that I'm wrong and I pay for it in the end. However, I think Christians that are only Christians out of fear, and actually don't love Jesus, are destined to be denied entry to heaven all the same. I'm not saying that's you, but those kinds of Christians do exist.

People become believers for many reasons; some are genuine, devine encounters, some may not be. Your above post assumes that If God exists then heaven also exists and some will not enter into it. This is a true statement. The promises given to believers (based on the bible) is salvation and eternal life. So while you have the agency to do things in this world, the window you have available is small compared to the afterlife that awaits believers.

Finally, I think when it comes to other religions and the likelihood of them being true, we both share the same risk. For example, I suspect we both reject Islam being the only true religion. However, neither of us truly knows for certain. We take a risk in believing it isn't true.

There is a Christian quote, (possibly by Carl Medearis), that says: “Christianity is about God (Jesus) coming down in the form of a man to save humanity, whereas other religions are humanity’s attempt to reach God.”

Bless you.

 

[Debp]

You'll lose nothing in death, that's true. But you did lose a level of agency over your life while you were alive.


Yes. While I have agency to do things a Christian cannot do, the the trade-off is that I'm wrong and I pay for it in the end. However, I think Christians that are only Christians out of fear, and actually don't love Jesus, are destined to be denied entry to heaven all the same. I'm not saying that's you, but those kinds of Christians do exist.

Finally, I think when it comes to other religions and the likelihood of them being true, we both share the same risk. For example, I suspect we both reject Islam being the only true religion. However, neither of us truly knows for certain. We take a risk in believing it isn't true.

I always thought the Christian life is a good and peaceful life. Keeping away from sin which only leads to misery in the end.

 

[Riven]

@Riven
That's because you don't know the Bible and real science. If you go deeper, you will find that the Bible is very scientific.

What's scientific about miracles?

 

[Debp]

I don't know if you can see this video, but youtube has repeatedly blocked my video from playing properly.

If you click on "watch on YouTube", it can be viewed.

 

[Debp]

What's scientific about miracles?

Not talking about the miracles. There are other things in the Bible that science later found to be true.

 

[Riven]

Not talking about the miracles. There are other things in the Bible that science later found to be true.

Alright. But the miracles are the important parts. Jesus rising from the dead is important to the story.

 

[soberxp]

Alright. But the miracles are the important parts. Jesus rising from the dead is important to the story.

Why don't you believe that everything you see is a miracle, and every person you see is a miracle?

Because it is God who created every person. Can you explain this process clearly? How does God combine various molecules in a woman's womb to form a life?

Don’t you think this is far more advanced compared to creating robots? This is a miracle, but are you trying to explain it with science?

 

[Debp]

Why don't you believe that everything you see is a miracle, and every person you see is a miracle?

Because it is God who created every person. Can you explain this process clearly? How does God combine various molecules in a woman's womb to form a life?

Don’t you think this is far more advanced compared to creating robots? This is a miracle, but are you trying to explain it with science?

I agree even our cells are a miracle. The cells are microscopic and need to interface and function in a particular way. I have read about that in interesting articles by scientists that are Christians at

Home | The Institute for Creation Research

www.icr.org