Holiness, Apostolic and Pentecostal Denominations?

[charlesj]

-- I am not a fan of John Hagee, either. Don't send him money. Don't agree with all he has said.
But I do know, though, that people are being saved through his ministry so he must be doing something positive.


I saw different sources that state he got a Th D. from Trinity University, but his own web site does not mention a Doctorate (although they do call him 'Dr.')
They list a number of honorary doctorates so perhaps he is taking the not-so-accurate route of calling himself 'Dr.' due to that.


As far as his past mistakes, the biggest sins I have ever committed have been AFTER I became a Christian. It took a long time to come to grips with that, seek forgiveness, and actually repent in every sense of that word. Thankfully, that is now in the past.


Because of that I know (perhaps better than those who did not sin as I did) that I am in no position to stand in judgement of others who have sinned and then sought and received Christ's total forgiveness.


David had the husband of the woman he was fornicating with killed in battle. It took Nathan slapping him in the face (metaphorically speaking) before he realized how much he had offended God. Yet he sought and was granted total forgiveness.


Peter, just hours after stating he could never deny Christ and promising to die for Him, denied Him three times. Yet he received total and complete forgiveness from Jesus and went on to be one of the great cornerstones of the early church. You and I study his words and deeds to this day.


If God is willing to totally forgive and restore someone, I know I am not in a position to 'not respect' them because of that sin.

[font="'Arial Black"]Hello foreigner again:

Thanks for your input.
John Hagee has only come up in my conversation only in our posts. I don't think I've thought about him or said anything about him for over 30 years now. I first met him around 1969.
Surely he has repented of His sins as we all do and should.
You mentioned "people being saved" through his ministry. How do you know?
He does say Gentiles need Christ, but the Jew doesn't. (This has been quoted in several newspapers and can be found on the Internet.)

The only reason I am talking about Hagee now is because you keep bringing him up. LOL

May the Lord bless us as we study His Word.
Remember, the "sum of His Word is Truth." (psalms 119:160)

charlesj[/font]

 

[Foreigner]

He gives alter called and walks people through the sinner's prayer.

He tells them to get into the Word, study it, and obey it.

He tells them to find a church that supports the teaching of the Bible, plant roots there, and grow.

He doesn't say they have to come or stay at HIS church to be Christians or to grow as such.

 

[IanLC]

Apostolic, Holiness , Pentecostal & Charismatic Movements ​

“Acts 2:17-21”​

By: Ian Lamar Courts​

​

The Holiness movement is a sprout off of the Wesleyan Methodist theology. The movement was centralized around the doctrine of “salvation and sanctification”. Many of the founders and leaders of the holiness movement did not intend to start a new denomination of Christianity but wanted to bring revival to the church as a whole. But due to the scrutiny and isolation brought upon these revivalists by the established churches lead to the establishment of a new denomination in Christianity. One of the oldest holiness organizations is the United Holy Church of America Inc. which started by the preaching of the holiness doctrine by Rev. Isaac Cheshier in North Carolina (1886). Due to the fire and vigor of these preachers many people began to flock to this new denomination. Churches and assemblies of these “holy rollers” were established all over the southern United States. In the year of 1906 on Azusa Street, Los Angeles California another major revival began! This new revival birthed what is known today as Pentecostalism. William Seymour preached a new doctrine of ‘baptism of the Holy Ghost”! This revival brought about a modern outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Members experienced the gift of tongues, and faith healing. Many notable church organizations are the Church of God in Christ (COGIC) (1907), International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC) (1911), Assemblies of God (1914), Pentecostal Church of God (1919), and the United Pentecostal Church (1914) among many other organizations. This new doctrine proposed a major issue toward the holiness denomination and the established denominations. Many holiness organizations accepted this new doctrine and incorporated it into their doctrine. The Pentecostal denomination is one of the biggest Christian denominations in the world today. The Apostolic movement began during the Welsh Revival and is a Oneness theological church. Many baptize in Jesus Christ’s name only. It was formally established in 1916. The Apostolic, Holiness and Pentecostal movements have brought a since of spiritual renewal for the church today. Today most of the harsh criticism from the other Christian denominations has subsided and many have experienced and accepted the theology of the Holiness, Apostolic and Pentecostal denominations. Today a new revival has come about called the Charismatic movement. It was started by a Lutheran minister Harald Bredesen in 1962. He stressed the use of charismata or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many Charismatic Christians separate and distinguish themselves from main stream Pentecostalism due to the fact that many Charismatic Christians do not believe that speaking in tongues are the only evidence of the Holy Spirit. They also believe there is one baptism and that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they become saved. Charismatic Christians call themselves the Neo-Pentecostals. Charismatic Christians accept the Wesleyan holiness doctrine. Overall many of these great denominations have made huge contributions to the body of Christ, American Culture, and in the lives of the individuals who belong to these groups.



Organizations

• Church of Nazarene(1908)
• Fire Baptized Holiness Church (1895)
• Free Wesleyan Church (1885)
• Christ’s Sanctified Holy Church (1892)
• International Pentecostal Holiness Church (1911)
• United Holy Church of America (1886)
• Church of God in Christ (1907)
• Assemblies of God (1914)
• Pentecostal Church of God (1919)
• United Pentecostal Church (1914)
• Church of Christ (Holiness) (1896)
• Church of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Apostolic) (1919)

Among many others.

 

[rockytopva]

Apostolic, Holiness , Pentecostal & Charismatic Movements ​

“Acts 2:17-21”​

By: Ian Lamar Courts​

​

The Holiness movement is a sprout off of the Wesleyan Methodist theology. The movement was centralized around the doctrine of “salvation and sanctification”. Many of the founders and leaders of the holiness movement did not intend to start a new denomination of Christianity but wanted to bring revival to the church as a whole. But due to the scrutiny and isolation brought upon these revivalists by the established churches lead to the establishment of a new denomination in Christianity. One of the oldest holiness organizations is the United Holy Church of America Inc. which started by the preaching of the holiness doctrine by Rev. Isaac Cheshier in North Carolina (1886). Due to the fire and vigor of these preachers many people began to flock to this new denomination. Churches and assemblies of these “holy rollers” were established all over the southern United States. In the year of 1906 on Azusa Street, Los Angeles California another major revival began! This new revival birthed what is known today as Pentecostalism. William Seymour preached a new doctrine of ‘baptism of the Holy Ghost”! This revival brought about a modern outpouring of the Holy Spirit. Members experienced the gift of tongues, and faith healing. Many notable church organizations are the Church of God in Christ (COGIC) (1907), International Pentecostal Holiness Church (IPHC) (1911), Assemblies of God (1914), Pentecostal Church of God (1919), and the United Pentecostal Church (1914) among many other organizations. This new doctrine proposed a major issue toward the holiness denomination and the established denominations. Many holiness organizations accepted this new doctrine and incorporated it into their doctrine. The Pentecostal denomination is one of the biggest Christian denominations in the world today. The Apostolic movement began during the Welsh Revival and is a Oneness theological church. Many baptize in Jesus Christ’s name only. It was formally established in 1916. The Apostolic, Holiness and Pentecostal movements have brought a since of spiritual renewal for the church today. Today most of the harsh criticism from the other Christian denominations has subsided and many have experienced and accepted the theology of the Holiness, Apostolic and Pentecostal denominations. Today a new revival has come about called the Charismatic movement. It was started by a Lutheran minister Harald Bredesen in 1962. He stressed the use of charismata or gifts of the Holy Spirit. Many Charismatic Christians separate and distinguish themselves from main stream Pentecostalism due to the fact that many Charismatic Christians do not believe that speaking in tongues are the only evidence of the Holy Spirit. They also believe there is one baptism and that believers receive the Holy Spirit when they become saved. Charismatic Christians call themselves the Neo-Pentecostals. Charismatic Christians accept the Wesleyan holiness doctrine. Overall many of these great denominations have made huge contributions to the body of Christ, American Culture, and in the lives of the individuals who belong to these groups.

I like it! Some foundations to Wesleyan Methodist theology...

1. John Hess - From which came the Moravians
2. John Bunyan - Laid out the Methods in his pilgrims progress...
_Justification - The faith to make it out of the City of Destruction....
_The slough of despond - Brought about by religious melancholy
_Legalities mountain - Brought about by religions that dwell on the Old Testament
_Beelzebub castle - Satan's last effort to intimidate those seeking salvation
_Salvation - At the Wicket Gate... Jesus is the gate! Believe on him and you will be saved!
_Sanctification - Begins at the Porters House where the pilgrim gets godly counseling
_The Cross - The burdens and the weights fall off when the pilgrim understands the meaning of the cross.
_Difficulty Hill - Difficult trials for the new believer
_The Arbor - Can loose your spiritual good's in life's comfort zones if one is not careful!
_The Baptism in the Holy Ghost - At the Porters House - Also met with Discretion, Piety, Prudence, and Charity.
_Valley of Humiliation - Time for some testing
_Valley of the Shadow of Death - Time to battle with the devil!
_The Religious Giants - Avoiding the evils of the religious giants.
_Befriending Faithful - Befriending those of like faith help the journey along the way!
_Vanity Fair - Time to take that mature Christian walk of yours and witness to the world!
_Plain of Ease / Lucre Hill - Can get bogged down and unprofitable real fast here! Keep going mate!
_Giant Despair / Doubting Castle - Remember the promises of God are the keys that open the door!
_The Enchanted Ground - The Devil will try to vex you intellectually to make the wrong decisions.
_Beulah Land - Mature Christians faith shines brightly day and night! Has a good glimpse of the Celestial City from here!
__Oh My! On My! Sweet Beulah Land! With my light (faith, hope, charity) and energy (motivation) I will shout home from here!
_The Great River - Symbolic of death.
_Celestial City - The place of perfect light and energy.
3. John Wesley - Felt his heart 'strangely warmed' at a Moravian meeting. His 'Holy Club' laid out the foundations of Methodism...
__1. Justification The acquiring of faith.
__2. Salvation Very easy! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved! -Acts 16:31
__3. Sanctification Replaces the love of this world with the love of heavenly things..
____ The Methodist would not let you claim sanctification if you had not a sweet spirit.
___The spiritual experience of light that dispels the darkness born in every heart.
__4. The Witness of the Spirit Pentecostals believed this came with tongues (Seymour cautioned that this is not the only evidence).
4. William Seymour - Sought the Witness of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

 

[IanLC]

I like it! Some foundations to Wesleyan Methodist theology...

1. John Hess - From which came the Moravians
2. John Bunyan - Laid out the Methods in his pilgrims progress...
_Justification - The faith to make it out of the City of Destruction....
_The slough of despond - Brought about by religious melancholy
_Legalities mountain - Brought about by religions that dwell on the Old Testament
_Beelzebub castle - Satan's last effort to intimidate those seeking salvation
_Salvation - At the Wicket Gate... Jesus is the gate! Believe on him and you will be saved!
_Sanctification - Begins at the Porters House where the pilgrim gets godly counseling
_The Cross - The burdens and the weights fall off when the pilgrim understands the meaning of the cross.
_Difficulty Hill - Difficult trials for the new believer
_The Arbor - Can loose your spiritual good's in life's comfort zones if one is not careful!
_The Baptism in the Holy Ghost - At the Porters House - Also met with Discretion, Piety, Prudence, and Charity.
_Valley of Humiliation - Time for some testing
_Valley of the Shadow of Death - Time to battle with the devil!
_The Religious Giants - Avoiding the evils of the religious giants.
_Befriending Faithful - Befriending those of like faith help the journey along the way!
_Vanity Fair - Time to take that mature Christian walk of yours and witness to the world!
_Plain of Ease / Lucre Hill - Can get bogged down and unprofitable real fast here! Keep going mate!
_Giant Despair / Doubting Castle - Remember the promises of God are the keys that open the door!
_The Enchanted Ground - The Devil will try to vex you intellectually to make the wrong decisions.
_Beulah Land - Mature Christians faith shines brightly day and night! Has a good glimpse of the Celestial City from here!
__Oh My! On My! Sweet Beulah Land! With my light (faith, hope, charity) and energy (motivation) I will shout home from here!
_The Great River - Symbolic of death.
_Celestial City - The place of perfect light and energy.
3. John Wesley - Felt his heart 'strangely warmed' at a Moravian meeting. His 'Holy Club' laid out the foundations of Methodism...
__1. Justification The acquiring of faith.
__2. Salvation Very easy! Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved! -Acts 16:31
__3. Sanctification Replaces the love of this world with the love of heavenly things..
____ The Methodist would not let you claim sanctification if you had not a sweet spirit.
___The spiritual experience of light that dispels the darkness born in every heart.
__4. The Witness of the Spirit Pentecostals believed this came with tongues (Seymour cautioned that this is not the only evidence).
4. William Seymour - Sought the Witness of the Spirit with the evidence of tongues.

I enjoyed this responce! I love the outline its a basic Christian faith walk!

 

[Butch5]

Hello UHCAian:


Today, with modern medicine a dying person can be kept alive for days (even months).

Was your grandmother declared dead? How long was she dead? Two or three days? How about like Lazarus who was dead for three days and Jesus raised him?


If this really happened and you grandmother was dead for three days every newspaper in the world would be printing it. Do you have a copy of the news article because
I missed it?


Most of the “miracles” I’m told about are those that you can’t see. Huh? That is, they
say, “I had a stomach problem and God healed me.” “I had one leg shorter than
the other and God stretched my leg out and now they are both the same length.” Etc. etc. etc.


My brother (in the flesh) is Pentecostal and has been now for about 40 years. His son had
bone cancer at the age of 21. He had all kinds of faith healers lay hands on him and declared him healed. The church prayed over him etc. He died at the
age of 22. My brother, five years ago, has been diagnosed with the same kind of cancer and the cancer has left holes
in his bones throughout his body and skull. The medical people have given him a drug that has healed his bones back to normal, but the cancer came back. This is the lethal cancer.


I am not attacking you, but I am saying all this “hype” is just what it is “hype.”




“I say if you are into being a member of any church - go where the love is.” (Miss Hepburn)


Really Miss Hepburn?


A “church” is an assembly of people by definition. (Read my article on “Is
church a religious name?” http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/13552-is-church-a-religious-name/


When you get an assembly of people it doesn’t always mean you are hearing the Word of God. Would it be okay to attend Mormon
worship? I have Mormon friends and they express “love.” Would that be okay since they express
love? I just studied with a fifth generation Mormon. Is it okay to teach that you can
become God if you are righteous enough? Also, do you believe that God was a man at one time? They teach this. Is that okay as long as they do it with “love”?
These people (Mormons) are hard working, decent and loving people!


This fifth generation Mormon told me his great grandfather had five wives. He asked me “do you think he is in hell because he had five wives?” I told him, “no, if he had five wives he has
already LIVED HELL on earth.”


The Masonic lodge is religious. I spent five years as a Mason. I can remember one of the “secret” questions
they ask when you are initiated, “whom do you place your trust?” I replied, “Jesus Christ!” The man asking me the questions whispered, “No,
you can’t say that, there may be some Jews present.” Now, by what you’ve said, these people show “love”
is it okay to fellowship with this assembly (church) who can’t mention Jesus Christ in their meeting openly.

May the Lord be with us as we study His Word,

Your servant in Messiah,

charlesj

I have to agree on your position regarding the gifts. Here are the words of Origen from his writing "Against Celsus"

Title : The Early Church Fathers: Ante-Nicene Fathers Volume 4

Chap. II. Celsus next proceeds to say, that the system of doctrine, viz., Judaism, upon which Christianity depends, was barbarous in its origin. And with an appearance of fairness, he does not reproach Christianity9IV-6a-9 because of its origin among barbarians, but gives the latter credit for their ability in discovering (such) doctrines. To this, however, he adds the statement, that the Greeks are more skilful than any others in judging, establishing, and reducing to practice the discoveries of barbarous nations. Now this is our answer to his allegations, and our defence of the truths contained in Christianity, that if any one were to come from the study of Grecian opinions and usages to the Gospel, he would not only decide that its doctrines were true, but would by practice establish their truth, and supply whatever seemed wanting, from a Grecian point of view, to their demonstration, and thus confirm the truth of Christianity. We have to say, moreover, that the Gospel has a demonstration of its own, more divine than any established by Grecian dialectics. And this diviner method is called by the apostle the “manifestation of the Spirit and of power:” of “the Spirit,” on account of the prophecies, which are sufficient to produce faith in any one who reads them, especially in those things which relate to Christ; and of “power,” because of the signs and wonders which we must believe to have been performed, both on many other grounds, and on this, that traces of them are still preserved among those 398 who regulate their lives by the precepts of the Gospel.

It seems by his day early 200's there was only a trace of the gifts still around. He speaks of the gifts having been performed, in the past tense.

 

[St Columcille]

I belong to the United Holy Church of America(UHCA) we are the oldest African-American holiness church organization in the United States. We beleive in the same things as other Christian churches. We are biblicaly founded and our doctrine aligns with the word of God. We speak in tongues under the inspiration and aunction of the Holy Spirit, baptize in the name of Jesus, preach salvation in Jesus Christ, teach, express the gifts of the Holy Spirit and express our praise and glory to God in dance (as we call it a shout). We stress holiness in the lives of the people of God. Why is there so much back lash against we who belong to Holiness, Apostolic and Penetecostal denominations? We are not chrismatics that is another denomination! Some of their beliefs are different than our own. Why is there such stigma and in al naturality intolerance and not the love of Christ toward us?

I've seen a few good posts already. However, I wanted to highlight a few things from your own words and perhaps discuss something based on it.

First of all, I have nothing against Pentacostal nor Holiness churches. The problem is the terms have become confusing when it comes to applying it to different groups. For instance, I could read some John Wesley literature and say he was really into Holiness. Some might think the Methodists were by proxy in this grouping. Also, there are different Pentacostal groups also. Some may even consider Assembly of God to be Pentacostals because the AoG broke away from the Pentacostal group.

However, your term "Apostolic," while I consider the Catholic and Orthodox Churches to be Apostolic through their successor of bishops back to the apostles, is not referencing succession, but rather applied to the grouping that considers themselves as "Oneness." In this regard, the Pentacostals would disassociate themselves from the United Pentacostal Church International because they are also "Oneness." Now historically, "Oneness" theology has been termed as Modalist Monarchianism and Sabellianism. The fact that you do not use the "trinitarian formula" would also indicate belonging to the Oneness theology. Historically, this was deemed a heresy.

The Oxford English Dictionary states of "modalism" as:

The Sabellian doctrine that the distinction in the Trinity is ‘modal’ only, i.e. that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are merely three different modes of manifestation of the Divine nature.

1859 Schaff Hist. Chr. Ch. (an. 1–311) 292 Sabellian modalism. 1905 W. Sanday Crit. 4th Gospel viii. 244 The language of Ignatius tends to Modalism.

"modalism," Oxford English Dictionary Second Edition on CD-ROM (v. 4.0)
© Oxford University Press 2009

 

[Angelina]

Hi SC!

In this regard, the Pentacostals would disassociate themselves from the United Pentacostal Church International because they are also "Oneness." Now historically, "Oneness" theology has been termed as Modalist Monarchianism and Sabellianism. The fact that you do not use the "trinitarian formula" would also indicate belonging to the Oneness theology. Historically, this was deemed a heresy.

I am from a pentecostal Church...but we do not believe in the "Oneness" doctrine...we are Trinitarian believers....:huh:

Some may even consider Assembly of God to be Pentacostals because the AoG broke away from the Pentacostal group.

When did that happen? As far as I understand, the AoG are still Pentecostal...:blink: Sometimes the nature of individual pentecostal Churches can lean towards being more mainline or pentecostal, based on the Pastor who runs it.

Blessings!!!

 

[St Columcille]

Hi SC!



I am from a pentecostal Church...but we do not believe in the "Oneness" doctrine...we are Trinitarian believers....:huh:



When did that happen? As far as I understand, the AoG are still Pentecostal...:blink: Sometimes the nature of individual pentecostal Churches can lean towards being more mainline or pentecostal, based on the Pastor who runs it.

Blessings!!!

Yes, I understand that Pentacostals are trinitarian. What I saw on the UHCA website also looks trinitarian. However, baptized in Jesus name alone sounds really bad. I think the passage in Acts that instructs this is really marking the form of water baptism. John's baptism is unto repentence, and hence such a baptism would reflect done by John's disciples on John's authority. I think the aspect of "name" reflects this in Acts, but in regards to the trinitarian formula, we are baptized in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit as stated in the Gospel of Matthew.

As far as the AoG, I guess it depends on who you talk to. My growing up experience in the AoG was marked by avoiding the connection, as many thought the dress codes, makeup, and other such emphasis was becoming too legalistic. However, I didn't see that much make up, if it was it was light; and there was still an expectation as how appropriate it was to dress up for church, but it was not as noticable as some of the Pentacostal churches I have visited where many of the woman wear denim dresses that go to the ankles and there is absolutely no make-up. Every church is autonomous, so it may not be universal to all Pentacostals, but I guess I have a certain preconcieved notion after visiting a few that seemed to fit the stereotype or stigma.