aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
You are judging Islam by the actions of Muslims and you are judging Christianity on the ideals. Is this fair-minded?
Homeland Security Study / Mosques
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You are judging Islam by the actions of Muslims and you are judging Christianity on the ideals. Is this fair-minded?
Ohhhhh, poor boy. Not even close.
I am judging both Muslims and Christians by their fruits, both in the past and today.
In the past, both were violent, committing torture and murder in their name of their faith.
Today one faith is the light of the world. Its followers are preaching a message of hope and love, building churches, hospitals, orphanages and schools around the world while providing millions to charities to help the poor and assist during natural disasters both here and abroad.
They preach Christ's message of love but don't force anyone to follow it or threaten their lives if they don't.
As a matter of fact, many are martyred because they hold onto their beliefs but refuse to push or defend them violently.
The other faith's followers......well, let's take a quick peek, shall we?
- Advocate the murder of those who don't accept their faith (infidels).
- Advocate the murder of those who convert from Islam.
- Advocate the murder of those who criticize the writings of the Koran or draw pictures of Muhammed.
- Refuse religious freedom and attack Christians within those countries that are predominantly Muslim.
Only a small number of Muslims dare speak out against this practice. The rest.....silent.
Oh, they may oppose it, but Qui tacet consentit.
Again, both Christians and Muslims used their faith to justify murder, violence, etc. in the past.
Only one of them is still doing that today.
But AGAIN, you changd the subject.
I understand why, but the fact of the matter is, you continue to do it.
Your original post which kicked off our interaction was this:
"What were Christians doing 500 years ago? Islam is 500 years younger than Christianity and based on our history, they are right on schedule." - Aspen
-- The implication is that where Muslims are today matches where Christianity was 500 years ago so their actions are somewhat understandable.
The simple fact - again, that you choose to ignore - is that Muslims were JUST AS VIOLENT as Christians back 500 years ago so your statement is ridiculous, at best. Repeat, at best.
And that their VIOLENT spread across North Africa, bringing Islam at the point of a sword predated even the Crusades.
That puts your "student of history" claim squarely in the trash bin.
I am judging both Muslims and Christians by their fruits, both in the past and today.
In the past, both were violent, committing torture and murder in their name of their faith.
Today one faith is the light of the world. Its followers are preaching a message of hope and love, building churches, hospitals, orphanages and schools around the world while providing millions to charities to help the poor and assist during natural disasters both here and abroad.
They preach Christ's message of love but don't force anyone to follow it or threaten their lives if they don't.
As a matter of fact, many are martyred because they hold onto their beliefs but refuse to push or defend them violently.
The other faith's followers......well, let's take a quick peek, shall we?
- Advocate the murder of those who don't accept their faith (infidels).
- Advocate the murder of those who convert from Islam.
- Advocate the murder of those who criticize the writings of the Koran or draw pictures of Muhammed.
- Refuse religious freedom and attack Christians within those countries that are predominantly Muslim.
Only a small number of Muslims dare speak out against this practice. The rest.....silent.
Oh, they may oppose it, but Qui tacet consentit.
Again, both Christians and Muslims used their faith to justify murder, violence, etc. in the past.
Only one of them is still doing that today.
But AGAIN, you changd the subject.
I understand why, but the fact of the matter is, you continue to do it.
Your original post which kicked off our interaction was this:
"What were Christians doing 500 years ago? Islam is 500 years younger than Christianity and based on our history, they are right on schedule." - Aspen
-- The implication is that where Muslims are today matches where Christianity was 500 years ago so their actions are somewhat understandable.
The simple fact - again, that you choose to ignore - is that Muslims were JUST AS VIOLENT as Christians back 500 years ago so your statement is ridiculous, at best. Repeat, at best.
And that their VIOLENT spread across North Africa, bringing Islam at the point of a sword predated even the Crusades.
That puts your "student of history" claim squarely in the trash bin.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
"First, you are viewing Christianity, idealistically." - Aspen
-- Idealistically? Really. Please tell me one statement I made about what Christians are doing in the world today that is "Idealistic" but not "Factual."
Also, please tell me one thing I listed that Muslims are doing in the world today that is not "Factual."
"Second, how do you know that Islam is not going to catch up in the next 500 years? You are also failing to take into account political and economical forces." - Aspen
-- You own previous post on what the Islamic faith used to stand on and stand for shows that they are regressing and not progressing.
Your statement "How do we know they are not going to catch up in the next 500 years?" is probably one of the most desperate and ridiculous thing you have said on this board. And that is saying a lot.
The simple fact that - and even the Catholic Church acknowledges it - is that prophecy is being fulfilled at a pace that shows the natural world as you and I know it won't even be here in 500 years. God is returning long before that.
Please give your desperation to save face a rest and get a grip.
"If I were to dredge up all the violent passages in the OT against those who reject God, we would be here for years." - Aspen
-- Another incredibly silly statement. Why? Because God wasn't calling the Israelites to tell people to either become Jewish or perish. Try again.
"And you refuse to acknowledge that 500 years ago, Islam was STILL 500 years behind Christianity - funny how that works!"
-- Behind how specifically?
500 years ago they were both JUST AS violent and JUST AS sure that their faith was THE faith. Just where - exactly, please - were they "behind Christianity."
That also means that in the time of enlightenment and education over the last 500 years - even the last 50 years - there was nothing in that enlightenment to that Muslims could use to comprehend that violence is not the answer or increase their understanding of just who God is.
Again, you insult Muslims as a whole by imply they were and are too backward (stupid?) to understand what is right or wrong over the last 500 years.
What you say is as offensive to Muslims as it is ignorant.
All this because of your pride.
-- Idealistically? Really. Please tell me one statement I made about what Christians are doing in the world today that is "Idealistic" but not "Factual."
Also, please tell me one thing I listed that Muslims are doing in the world today that is not "Factual."
"Second, how do you know that Islam is not going to catch up in the next 500 years? You are also failing to take into account political and economical forces." - Aspen
-- You own previous post on what the Islamic faith used to stand on and stand for shows that they are regressing and not progressing.
Your statement "How do we know they are not going to catch up in the next 500 years?" is probably one of the most desperate and ridiculous thing you have said on this board. And that is saying a lot.
The simple fact that - and even the Catholic Church acknowledges it - is that prophecy is being fulfilled at a pace that shows the natural world as you and I know it won't even be here in 500 years. God is returning long before that.
Please give your desperation to save face a rest and get a grip.
"If I were to dredge up all the violent passages in the OT against those who reject God, we would be here for years." - Aspen
-- Another incredibly silly statement. Why? Because God wasn't calling the Israelites to tell people to either become Jewish or perish. Try again.
"And you refuse to acknowledge that 500 years ago, Islam was STILL 500 years behind Christianity - funny how that works!"
-- Behind how specifically?
500 years ago they were both JUST AS violent and JUST AS sure that their faith was THE faith. Just where - exactly, please - were they "behind Christianity."
That also means that in the time of enlightenment and education over the last 500 years - even the last 50 years - there was nothing in that enlightenment to that Muslims could use to comprehend that violence is not the answer or increase their understanding of just who God is.
Again, you insult Muslims as a whole by imply they were and are too backward (stupid?) to understand what is right or wrong over the last 500 years.
What you say is as offensive to Muslims as it is ignorant.
All this because of your pride.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
"I see you are now stacking the deck - I have two choices; admit defeat or state one idealistic, but not factual statement you have made about Christian good deeds - nicely done." - Aspen
-- I listed a number of concrete things that the Christians are doing in the world today: "building churches, hospitals, orphanages and schools around the world while providing millions to charities to help the poor and assist during natural disasters both here and abroad."
You accused me of speaking only "idealistically" and I asked what specifically I mentioned was not factual. You obviously have nothing.
"Of course, it means nothing. You are still being idealistic in your presentation of Christianity because you are only highlighting the good deeds, while brushing the wack-jobs under the carpet." - Aspen
-- And how many Christian "whack-jobs" over the last 100 years have used their faith to justify murdering thousands and thousands of non-Christians, blowing up buildings, bringing down airplanes, stoning women who commit adultery, cutting off hands of burglars, etc.etc. Please be specific.
The most prominant "whack-jobs" today (Westboro Baptist) aren't actually a Christian church in the first place. The government lists them as a cult not a church, and every other Christian church in America has condemned their actions.
And please don't say "Timothy McVie." He never claimed to be a Christian or that that what he was doing had anything to do with his faith.
So, put the churches, hospitals, clinics, orphanages, schools, and millions is charitable donations for disasters worldwide every year in one hand, and the "whack-jobs" in the other. Now tell me, which way does the scale overwhelmingly tilt.
NOW
Put the thousands who have died at the hands of Muslims in the name of Islam, the thousand tortured and maimed, and the millions living under oppression of state sponsored Islam that supports these things.
THEN
Put what those Muslims "do in their community and the world" in the other hand and see how quickly the scales slam the other way.
Then get a clue.
"Islam had a golden age and now they are in a valley.' - Aspen
- That's it?
A systematic corruption of the faith that has led to the slaughter of thousands, the maiming of thousands, and the loss of freedom for millions the worldwide, during a time of enlightenment and technical knowledge unlike anything the world has ever seen....means they are in "a valley?"
Uh huh LOL
"Haha....I know; you want this conversation to be about ego." - Aspen
-- And I know you wish it wasn't about you trying to save face.
"Irrelevant. Violence is violence, despite your need to give Israel and Christianity a pass." - Aspen
-- And now you resort to lying. In everyone one of my last few posts I have spoken about the violence and brutality that was done in the name of Christianity.
And I never once said that the Jews didn't commit violence. (Even leaving out the fact that the majority was in response to what was trying to be done to Israel.)
Please try to be honest. Give it a shot.
"I see you are still refusing to acknowledge that comparing a 1000 year old Islam with a 1500 year old Christianity is as unfair as comparing a 1500 year old Islam with a 2000 year old Christianity." - Aspen
-- And you are refusing to acknowledge the difference between a time of closed societies where ideas could take decades if not centuries to travel the entire globe and a time of multiple free societies and an unparalelled access to information and ideas that can travel the globe in seconds.
You are saying that the Muslims today are as ignorant about their faith, their rights, the world around them, and what is right and wrong as the Christians of 500 years ago.
Again, incredibly insulting to Muslims and makes you look, well, you can imagine...
We know what is happening inside of Iran, Libya and now Syria - even as it happens - because those Muslims with the mentality and knowledge level of 500 years ago are posting via Facebook, Skype, Twitter and email.
Again, your opinion is insulting to them.
"Hmm...are you willing to be as critical towards the ignorance of Medieval Europe? Why were they not profiting from the scientific advancements of the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire?" - Aspen
-- The ignorance of Medieval Europe? Absolutely. At that time it was widespread.
Why weren't the impressive technical advances in both math and science that came to pass under the Persian and Ottoman Empires known in Europe?
Setting aside the facts about closed societies and religious intolerance and suspicions on both sides, do you really want to compare the ignorance quotient of 500 years ago due to seclusion and suspicion and the lack of effective knowledge sharing to the era 500 years later of the Internet, instant worldwide connectivity and the 24 hour news cycle?
Yeah...
-- I listed a number of concrete things that the Christians are doing in the world today: "building churches, hospitals, orphanages and schools around the world while providing millions to charities to help the poor and assist during natural disasters both here and abroad."
You accused me of speaking only "idealistically" and I asked what specifically I mentioned was not factual. You obviously have nothing.
"Of course, it means nothing. You are still being idealistic in your presentation of Christianity because you are only highlighting the good deeds, while brushing the wack-jobs under the carpet." - Aspen
-- And how many Christian "whack-jobs" over the last 100 years have used their faith to justify murdering thousands and thousands of non-Christians, blowing up buildings, bringing down airplanes, stoning women who commit adultery, cutting off hands of burglars, etc.etc. Please be specific.
The most prominant "whack-jobs" today (Westboro Baptist) aren't actually a Christian church in the first place. The government lists them as a cult not a church, and every other Christian church in America has condemned their actions.
And please don't say "Timothy McVie." He never claimed to be a Christian or that that what he was doing had anything to do with his faith.
So, put the churches, hospitals, clinics, orphanages, schools, and millions is charitable donations for disasters worldwide every year in one hand, and the "whack-jobs" in the other. Now tell me, which way does the scale overwhelmingly tilt.
NOW
Put the thousands who have died at the hands of Muslims in the name of Islam, the thousand tortured and maimed, and the millions living under oppression of state sponsored Islam that supports these things.
THEN
Put what those Muslims "do in their community and the world" in the other hand and see how quickly the scales slam the other way.
Then get a clue.
"Islam had a golden age and now they are in a valley.' - Aspen
- That's it?
A systematic corruption of the faith that has led to the slaughter of thousands, the maiming of thousands, and the loss of freedom for millions the worldwide, during a time of enlightenment and technical knowledge unlike anything the world has ever seen....means they are in "a valley?"
Uh huh LOL
"Haha....I know; you want this conversation to be about ego." - Aspen
-- And I know you wish it wasn't about you trying to save face.
"Irrelevant. Violence is violence, despite your need to give Israel and Christianity a pass." - Aspen
-- And now you resort to lying. In everyone one of my last few posts I have spoken about the violence and brutality that was done in the name of Christianity.
And I never once said that the Jews didn't commit violence. (Even leaving out the fact that the majority was in response to what was trying to be done to Israel.)
Please try to be honest. Give it a shot.
"I see you are still refusing to acknowledge that comparing a 1000 year old Islam with a 1500 year old Christianity is as unfair as comparing a 1500 year old Islam with a 2000 year old Christianity." - Aspen
-- And you are refusing to acknowledge the difference between a time of closed societies where ideas could take decades if not centuries to travel the entire globe and a time of multiple free societies and an unparalelled access to information and ideas that can travel the globe in seconds.
You are saying that the Muslims today are as ignorant about their faith, their rights, the world around them, and what is right and wrong as the Christians of 500 years ago.
Again, incredibly insulting to Muslims and makes you look, well, you can imagine...
We know what is happening inside of Iran, Libya and now Syria - even as it happens - because those Muslims with the mentality and knowledge level of 500 years ago are posting via Facebook, Skype, Twitter and email.
Again, your opinion is insulting to them.
"Hmm...are you willing to be as critical towards the ignorance of Medieval Europe? Why were they not profiting from the scientific advancements of the Persian Empire and the Ottoman Empire?" - Aspen
-- The ignorance of Medieval Europe? Absolutely. At that time it was widespread.
Why weren't the impressive technical advances in both math and science that came to pass under the Persian and Ottoman Empires known in Europe?
Setting aside the facts about closed societies and religious intolerance and suspicions on both sides, do you really want to compare the ignorance quotient of 500 years ago due to seclusion and suspicion and the lack of effective knowledge sharing to the era 500 years later of the Internet, instant worldwide connectivity and the 24 hour news cycle?
Yeah...
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Well Foreigner, I agree to disagree for now. I did do some further research on the idea that Islam is 500 years behind Christianity and I was surprised to find no support for the theory from scholars - although many people do share my opinion. So, who knows? I am always open to being wrong. At this time, I am really not interested enough to read extensively about Islam in order to back up my opinion, but I certainly will keep it in the back of my mind as I continue studying the Middle Ages in Europe and Church history.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Most enlightened western people are appalled by the harsh and medieval Sharia-laws of Islam, none seem to see that we find the exact same laws and recommended punishments in the holy Bible. We shall not forget that it is not so long ago since Christianity also chopped of heads and different limbs and burned people at the stake of deviating faith, and waged holy wars in all directions. (Hey, the right wing Christian fundamentalist George Bush have just revived the crusade thing. "God bless America" and "Gott mit uns" spells exactly the same to me. Fundamentalism is fundamentalism no matter the religion or no matter if you wear a turban or a stetson hat). The mix of religious fundamentalism and political power has always been the classic recipe for human suffering, atrocities and disaster.
The most obvious difference between Islam and Christianity, is that Christianity has had 600 more years to lose its secular power in most western societies.
Here is the end of an article, which appears to be written by an atheist - no credentials were listed, but it is not a comment or post.
The most obvious difference between Islam and Christianity, is that Christianity has had 600 more years to lose its secular power in most western societies.
Here is the end of an article, which appears to be written by an atheist - no credentials were listed, but it is not a comment or post.
-- Care to share one single solitary Christian church practicing Sharia-like laws that cause maiming, mutilation, or the death of those who disobey.
Please be specific.
Can't? Then your comment is (as usual) without value.
-- Help us out here. How many HUNDREDS of years ago was this?
And why exactly must Muslims - in this time of enlightenment - wait several hundred years to catch up?
-- Typical Libiot tripe. Obama must believe the "crusade thing" as well since:
- He just offered to leave thousands to troops in Iraq if they ask (going against his campaign pledge to remove them all).
- Increased the number of soldiers by tens of thousands in Afghanistan.
- Has declared that military tribunals will now be held at Gitmo (you know, the place he promised to close in his first year in office)
- Launched an unprovoked war in Libya where he himself admitted that the U.S. had no vital interests and was not threatened by Libya.
An American President, launching an unprovoked attack on a Muslim country (Libya) with the expressed purpose of ridding that country of its leader.
Gosh...that sure sounds like Obama "just revived the crusade thing" huh?:lol:
Honestly Aspen, whenever you go off-script and show your true liberal colors, you show how hypocritical you are.
-- Tell me oh sage, what atrocities did you personally suffer at the hands of George Bush's faith?...............thought so.
(Psst...This is where you say that it is the Muslims overseas that actually suffered from atrocities.)
Then tell me oh sage, is Obama a religous fundamentalist?
Because he is currently continuing war in Iraq, Afghanistan, and started a brand new one in Libya.
If those wars are the "human suffering, atrocities and disaster" you are speaking of, then apparently Obama practices "religious fundamentalism."
You are going to have to wait until the paint dries before you can leave your corner.
-- Now it's 600 years? For your last several posts it has been 500. Can't you ever keep your fiction straight?
And the "most obvious difference between Islamd and Christianity" is that 600 years ago, during a time of seclusion, kings, tyrants, dictators, a widely uneducated populace and lack of personal freedom and free thought, Christianity was able to begin to sluff off the evil it was doing and become a force for good while Islam, during that same time, as well as in this time of great enlightenment, instant worldwide communication, evidence of lasting freedom in non-Muslim controlled lands, etc. etc. etc., still CHOOSES to live like it was 600 years ago.
Holding Muslims to standards in place 500 years ago instead of to the standards of today is insulting to Muslims, and everyone who has to smell what you are shoveling.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
A good way to say something without having to defend it.
Since your position is obviously indefensible, it makes perfect sense for you.
Since your position is obviously indefensible, it makes perfect sense for you.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Defend it to who? You?
I wouldn't have to 'defend' it even if I wrote it - opinions need no defense, especially when dealing with people who are not authority figures.
Opinions need defense if you are trying to pass that opinion off as fact.
Something you do on a regular basis.
Something you do on a regular basis.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Your opinion is noted.
I think the real shame is when people believe they are generating facts and trying to teach opinions as facts. This is an opinion board - all we can do is comment on truth - unless we want to post straight scripture and that would be pretty boring.
Silly me, I thought that giving your opinion, along with actually supporting why you think your opinion has any value, was one of the things done here.
Especially when you use your opinion to do blanket criticisms.
Especially when you use your opinion to do blanket criticisms.
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
silly you, indeed.
No one can prove anything spiritual or doctrinal on a message board. All we can do is comment on truth and hopefully, straighten out some of our own doctrinal understanding. We come to Christ by faith, not human reason. To know God, we must experience God in prayer, scripture and worship.
-- You do realize that not everything discussed on this board is spiritual, don't you, and that whether something is a part of doctrine for a denomination, etc. is either a matter of fact or it is not?
No? Tsk tsk tsk...
aspen
“"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few
Once again, all we can do is either post verses or doctrine without commentary (facts) or commentary on the facts (opinion).
I can post straight doctrine from the Catholic Catechism and that can be considered fact, but only fact in the sense of being a summary of Catholic doctrine. Any commentary I provide is my opinion. Posting Catholic doctrine or scripture doesn't prove anything except that Catholics are supposed to believe dogma from the Catholic Church and Christians are supposed to believe the Bible.
I can tell people why I have decided to form my opinion about certain aspects of the Bible or Christianity, but I cannot prove what only faith can grasp.
It is misguided and arrogant to believe that your opinion is fact.
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