Then you haven't understood post #305 else you would not have asked this question.
So yes, mankind made a deal with the devil, hence we are here, thrown out of Paradise, facing the consequences.
How can there be life after death?
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Then you haven't understood post #305 else you would not have asked this question.
So yes, mankind made a deal with the devil, hence we are here, thrown out of Paradise, facing the consequences.
So because of disobedience from two people that didn't know better we are faced with horrific consequences?
It doesn't make me think that your God is very loving towards mankind. Quite the contrary.
He loves us and made us in his image?
Childhood cancer, tsunamis, earthquakes, HIV, dementia.....
Really? I mean Really?
All of the above you would expect to find in a random creation, but not in a creation geared towards mankind.
I liken the garden of Eden story to putting toddlers into a sweet shop and expecting them to behave without supervision. God is all knowing apparently, so God must have known what the outcome would be beforehand...
It's almost like he wanted them to fall.
It's almost like he wanted them to fall.
So if he knew, why put the tree of knowledge there within reach, and on top of that draw attention to it?
If he knew, why bother with the garden at all?
That's for you to ask Him after you die.
Do you hope to see loved ones in eternity or is your life filled with no hope at all that that will happen ?
Making deals with the devil has consequences.
God gave them what they desired.
God said NO else... not His fault, see above.
So we are here, living in a blip of time to experience good (God) and evil (devil) to make up our mind who to obey with eternal consequences.
And God showed us His deep love for His fallen creation in Christ, sacrificing a part of Himself dying a cruel death on a cross for the forgiveness of the sins of the whole world, including the one in Paradise.
John 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
You have a choice, don't blew it.
A bit a Plato.
The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.
So then by analogy, the opposite of love is hate, the opposite of honesty is lying, the opposite of good is evil, the opposite of the light is darkness, etc.
So if good exist its opposite evil must exist also.
1John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
1John 4:8 Anyone who does not love does not know God, because God is love.
God is love, God is light.
But God knows His total opposite (hate and darkness) also exists (see Gen 3:22) and God did not want the free agents He created to go there, the devil (hate and darkness) but they willingly did. So by creating us as free agents He took a risk, actually as the Scriptures are telling us He foreknew the fall before He created mankind, He on beforehand knew the price He had to pay, sacrificing His Son Jesus and decided to create us anyway. He wanted free agents to share His love with and receive love in return. And in the end there will be billions who love God in return as he first love us.
1John 4:19 We love because he first loved us.
Yes, especially for new Christians. I think a lot of atheists enjoy trying to hinder other's faith in Christ.
I wish that I had spent more time with my sister in this life, I actually had the chance to do that but sadly that ship sailed.
I've learned from the experience though, now I spend as much time as I can with loved one's.
Since I've realised that this life isn't a dress rehearsal and will end at some point, I believe I've become a better person.
As for hope.... I hope for grandchildren some day, I hope for a good, healthy few years of retirement and hope to travel and spend quality time with Mrs Mancunian.
The Christian faith is all about life after death. That's it.
All I would say to you is, be careful what you wish for.
It's one of those things that sounds good on paper, but in reality could be horrendous.
Imagine just feeling happy forever and ever and ever, nothing else just happy. Unable to feel anything but happiness.... Wouldn't that mean that you would become like a mindless zombie for eternity?
No hint of sadness, no hint of jealousy, nothing. No thoughts whatsoever except happy ones.
Imagine everyone in that position forever wandering around in a state of forced happiness forever.
Forever is a long time.
No you are wrong. When I believed on Jesus as my personal Savior when I was 22, I immediately was forgiven of my sins (a reality) and had the peace of God come into my heart and mind. I am now 76, and the peace of God has never left me.
The Lord has given me strength all throughout my life. Whenever I have a hardship or trial, the Lord has always has helped me. I am totally alone so am truly thankful to the Lord.
When I was 74, I took care of my bedbound 94 year old mother round the clock until she died. I changed her diapers 24/7...it was a lot of manual labor but the Lord gave me grace, comfort and the strength to do what I needed to do.
There's also joy in the Christian life. Things might not always be easy but we have peace and joy in our hearts in this life. I rarely think about Heaven because the Lord is in my life right now and it is a good life.
Brakelite
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I agree, and think that Epicurus' thesis a devilishly devised attack on the character of God... And that's the issue at stake here. Theodicy is a fascinating subject, and I love meditating upon it, and have a clear enough understanding of the issue in my mind, but
In the beginning of the controversy, we are told of Lucifer's rebellion in heaven. In symbols and type we are informed that the rebellion was a desire to receive the worship that belongs to God alone. It was a desire to take the throne. To run the government. (I think we are all mature enough thinkers and Christians here to know the scriptures that point to this). We are also informed that 1/3 of the angels were deceived into following Lucifer and taking his side. Obviously, this could not have been an armed insurrection. It was a war certainly, but much more like a political campaign. A war of words and ideas, just like any political campaign here where am aspiring leader denigrates the current administration, suggesting the old ideas of love and service are insufficient to rule beings who know already what they need, and don't need to be ruled out overruled by anyone. (A quick perusal of the antinomian threads will reveal that concept repeated ad nauseum). So the only way to promote such a campaign, which could not have taken overnight, but a long time, was to demean God's character. God is love. Lucifer, aka Satan, therefore had to persuade the angels that God is not love, but selfish. This was his argument against Eve. "There's a tree you're not allowed to eat? Seriously? Wow, obviously God is holding back something that's for your good. I know! He doesn't want competition! He knows you also can be as God, having knowledge of everything... Etc etc etc".
This slander.. This traffic...KJV Ezekiel 28:5-6, 16
5 By thy great wisdom and by thy traffick hast thou increased thy riches, and thine heart is lifted up because of thy riches:
6 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thou hast set thine heart as the heart of God....
16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire.
Traffic, merchandise,
7404 הלָּכֻרְ rëkullah rek-ool-law’
pass part of 07402; n f; [BDB-940a] {See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165a"}
AV-merchandise 2, traffick 2; 4
1) merchandise, traffic, trade
share the same root...
7400 ליכִרָ rakiyl raw-keel’
from 07402 a scandal-monger (as travelling about); n m; [BDB-940b] {See TWOT on 2165 @@ "2165b"}
AV-slander 2, talebearer 2, talebearer + 01980 1, carry tales 1; 6
1) slander, slanderer, tale bearer, informer
So of course God could have put down the rebellion in an instant. One flick of His divine thumb and Satan would cease to exist. But what of the ideas that Satan made so public? That God is a tyrant, and didn't have the best interests of His creation at heart? Those ideas would not only have persisted in the minds of the angels, even the loyal ones, but would have been confirmed. Satan was clever enough to know this. That he would have to be given the opportunity to prove his ideas, right or wrong. And that is what the last 6000 years have been all about. The earth was a proving ground for Satan's philosophy. Could he run the earth better than God? Was he right about God's character and was his ways of governing an improvement? Only time and opportunity would tell. By the end of man's probation... The completion of the 6000 years since creation... The vindication of God's character... The vindication of God's style of government... And the vindication of His laws and statutes, would be complete. Satan's own character of course was revealed at the same time as God's... At Calvary. But as can be seen outside our front doors, not everyone is convinced. Not even in the church. But when Jesus comes in the glory of the angels, His own glory, and the glory of the Father, then, and only then, will every knee bow and every tongue confess, that Jesus is Lord and is worthy of our worship, adoration, and right to rule. So. That's my take on theodicy. Why there's evil. Why Satan was permitted to live. Why God has given His creation the free will to choose whom they will serve.
How is such a thing possible? In order for the soul to leave the body upon death, it must break the laws of the universe. It is a supernatural event. But supernatural events do not happen in this universe precisely because they would break the laws of physics, and that's not possible.
My view is, once the brain dies, the person creases to exist because we are our brains. A great example of this is people who have suffered an extensive brain injury. They often experience significant changes in their personality because of the physical changes to their brains.
We still don't understand consciousness, it's true. It's possible that conciuousness is something that happens outside our brains and its interpreted in real time by the brain. However, I think that's unlikely given that it would require an insane amount of compute power from an outside source, and that the brain acting as a receiver would require an immense amount of power from the brain itself to interpret and render 3D reality in real time.
Therefore I conclude that it is very likely that there is nothing beyond the physical death of the brain. We return to the state we were in before we were born.
Thoughts?
CONVERSATION IN THE WOMB – A PARABLE OF LIFE AFTER DELIVERY
In a mother's womb were two babies. One asked the other:
Do you believe in life after delivery?
Why, of course. There has to be something after delivery. Maybe we are here to prepare ourselves for what we will be later.
Nonsense. There is no life after delivery. What kind of life would that be?
I don't know, but there will be more light than here. Maybe we will walk with our legs and eat from our mouths. Maybe we will have other senses that we can't understand now.
That is absurd. Walking is impossible. And eating with our mouths? Ridiculous! The umbilical cord supplies nutrition and everything we need. Besides, the umbilical cord is so short. Life after delivery is to be logically excluded.
Well I think there is something and maybe it's different than it is here. Maybe we won't need this physical cord anymore.
Nonsense. If there is life, then why has no one ever come back from there? Delivery is the end of life, and in the after-delivery there is nothing but darkness and silence and oblivion. It takes us nowhere.
Well, I don't know, but certainly we will meet Mother and she will take care of us.
Mother? You actually believe in Mother? That's laughable. If Mother exists then where is She now?
She is all around us. We are surrounded by her. We are of Her. It is in Her that we live. Without Her this world would not and could not exist.
Well I don't see Her, so it is only logical that She doesn't exist.
Sometimes, when you're in silence and you focus and you really listen, you can perceive Her presence, and you can hear Her loving voice, calling down from above.
Nobody talks so constantly about God as those who insist that there is no God.
-- Heywood Broun US journalist (1888 - 1939)
We still have one problem:
WHY did the angels rebel?
That is an evil.
Where is the source of that evil?
Your analogy sounds like the two God analogy.
Also,,why would God have to vindicate Himself to angels?
Choosing whom one will serve...
denotes that there is a choice between two equals.
I enjoy listening to those that are extemely mad at a God they do not believe exists.
It's very entertaining.
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