How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter says -

WRONG! That’s just wishful thinking and plain NUTS! As wrong as Full Preterists are to put the whole thing in the past, it is EQUALLY wrong to put the whole thing in the future!


The Word of God says - Matthew 24-

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

... but the end is not yet!

EVERYTHING Jesus taught the disciples in Matthew 24 is a reference to the time of the END! It is evident, by the phrases He uses such as the one above where He says, but the end is not yet, that He is defining a countdown to the event of His actual RETURN to earth.

Sorry, but that's not quite true. First, no matter WHAT the disciples ASKED, Yeshua` gave them what they NEEDED in His answer! He answered their questions, but He also supplied things they didn't know to ask! As you quoted above, verses 4-6 shows us that Yeshua` gave them some things that were NOT about the future "END!"

Let me ask you something: Would it make sense that all these "many" false Messiahs would come at one time or would they come periodically, one by one, over a wide time frame, wider than 120 years? Would it make sense that they would come with a big splash in human events, big enough for them to be recorded in human history and remembered over many generations, or would they come rather more secretively to deceive as many of those to whom the Messiah meant something, as possible? He's not limited to the last 120 years or the last 7 years; He was talking about the WHOLE period while He would be away, starting with the problems they were about to face in the first century!

You're not using your head about this! Just because he said the words "the end," does NOT mean that what He is talking about is about the END! I could say, "I'm not talking about the end," and would you interpret that as I AM talking about "the end?" You're not using common sense!

Furthermore, by using the descriptive language of verses 37-38, -

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

it is clear that Jesus is teaching the reader that His discourse is referring to the last few years before His return, specifically the last 120 years of the time of the end, for that is how long it took Noah to build the Ark.

You've gleaned a little bit too much from a simple reference to Noach and his ark! Noach was 600 years old when the Flood was upon the earth, and he lived until he was 950. Thus, the "days of Noach" (which is spelled "nun-cholem-chet-patach" in Hebrew which is why I add the "c" to make the Scottish "ch" sound, which is how a "chet" sounds) could refer to all of that 600 years, not just 120 years! It doesn't say ANYTHING about His building of the ark! Furthermore, verse 38 isn't talking about debauchery (although it may include it); it was talking about NORMAL LIFE, NORMAL LIVING CONDITIONS AND ACTIVITIES! Things were going on as normal, and the Flood took them by surprise!

Also, this time period may not have been restricted to 600 years, either! These were the days that INCLUDED Noach's lifetime! Thus, they were normal living conditions and activities that were already established by the time that Noach came upon the scene!

The Word of god is clear to all who would read it. Jesus was clearly defining the last few years of the end of this age!

I would say that anyone who would try and deceive the brethren otherwise has some sort of deceptive agenda.

Retrobyter, I don't know what you could possibly be thinking?


Thanks, JLB

No deceptive agenda here. I'm just trying to get you guys to see the simplicity of the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21! Yeshua` covered ALL the time that He would be off-earth! And, what was MOST IMPORTANT for His current disciples at the time of His Discourse was the PRESSURE they would face in just a mere 40 years! I'm not discounting or diminishing what He said about further on into the 2000 years as the End approached, but the beginning of His discourse was spent on WARNING THEM OF IMPENDING DISASTER!

You're right that "the Word of God is clear to all who would read it"; so READ IT, FOR PETE'S SAKE! Read it in every version! Read it in the Greek! Study the Greek against the English to be sure that your understanding of what is being said in the English is a true reflection of what was intended to be understood in the Greek! And, as the ancient Aramaic versions that predate Greek are discovered, translated, and made available to the public, READ THEM, TOO!

What could I possibly be thinking? I'm thinking that y'all need a healthy dose of reality! I'm thinking that you need to get your heads out of the theological clouds and get back to the CONTEXT! I love you guys in the Lord, and I want you to see what Yeshua` was saying without all the "FLUFF" of theological rhetoric!

Sigh. Come quickly Lord Yeshua`.

 

[JLB]

Shalom, JLB.



Sorry, but that's not quite true. First, no matter WHAT the disciples ASKED, Yeshua` gave them what they NEEDED in His answer! He answered their questions, but He also supplied things they didn't know to ask! As you quoted above, verses 4-6 shows us that Yeshua` gave them some things that were NOT about the future "END!"

Let me ask you something: Would it make sense that all these "many" false Messiahs would come at one time or would they come periodically, one by one, over a wide time frame, wider than 120 years? Would it make sense that they would come with a big splash in human events, big enough for them to be recorded in human history and remembered over many generations, or would they come rather more secretively to deceive as many of those to whom the Messiah meant something, as possible? He's not limited to the last 120 years or the last 7 years; He was talking about the WHOLE period while He would be away, starting with the problems they were about to face in the first century!

You're not using your head about this! Just because he said the words "the end," does NOT mean that what He is talking about is about the END! I could say, "I'm not talking about the end," and would you interpret that as I AM talking about "the end?" You're not using common sense!



You've gleaned a little bit too much from a simple reference to Noach and his ark! Noach was 600 years old when the Flood was upon the earth, and he lived until he was 950. Thus, the "days of Noach" (which is spelled "nun-cholem-chet-patach" in Hebrew which is why I add the "c" to make the Scottish "ch" sound, which is how a "chet" sounds) could refer to all of that 600 years, not just 120 years! It doesn't say ANYTHING about His building of the ark! Furthermore, verse 38 isn't talking about debauchery (although it may include it); it was talking about NORMAL LIFE, NORMAL LIVING CONDITIONS AND ACTIVITIES! Things were going on as normal, and the Flood took them by surprise!

Also, this time period may not have been restricted to 600 years, either! These were the days that INCLUDED Noach's lifetime! Thus, they were normal living conditions and activities that were already established by the time that Noach came upon the scene!



No deceptive agenda here. I'm just trying to get you guys to see the simplicity of the Olivet Discourse, found in Matthew 24-25, Mark 13, and Luke 21! Yeshua` covered ALL the time that He would be off-earth! And, what was MOST IMPORTANT for His current disciples at the time of His Discourse was the PRESSURE they would face in just a mere 40 years! I'm not discounting or diminishing what He said about further on into the 2000 years as the End approached, but the beginning of His discourse was spent on WARNING THEM OF IMPENDING DISASTER!

You're right that "the Word of God is clear to all who would read it"; so READ IT, FOR PETE'S SAKE! Read it in every version! Read it in the Greek! Study the Greek against the English to be sure that your understanding of what is being said in the English is a true reflection of what was intended to be understood in the Greek! And, as the ancient Aramaic versions that predate Greek are discovered, translated, and made available to the public, READ THEM, TOO!

What could I possibly be thinking? I'm thinking that y'all need a healthy dose of reality! I'm thinking that you need to get your heads out of the theological clouds and get back to the CONTEXT! I love you guys in the Lord, and I want you to see what Yeshua` was saying without all the "FLUFF" of theological rhetoric!

Sigh. Come quickly Lord Yeshua`.

I have given you the scripture references that consistently say - The End.

6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

13 But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. A clear reference to the end!

29"Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. More references tied to the end of the age.

Matthew 24 is a clear reference to events of the end of the age.


Comments like this is what make your post lack any weight of truth!

Just because he said the words "the end," does NOT mean that what He is talking about is about the END!


I notice you don't have any scripture to back up what you say, just alot of OPINION as usual!




Thanks, JLB

 

[veteran]

Shalom, veteran.

To my statement, "The “’travail with child’ idea” is NOT one of them within this chapter!" you wrote...

You're reaching to equate these two passages! Look at the WHOLE context for placement in Yeshua`s lifetime:

Luke 23:27-32

27 And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said,Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.

31 For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

32 And there were also two other, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
KJV

This is not going to happen in the future! It happened in the PAST! It happened in 66-70 A.D., 40 years from when Yeshua` died on the Roman execution stake!

Note the Scripture parts in blue. They are NOT... referring to that time when Jesus was crucified. That part where those will say for the mountains and hills to fall on them and cover them is tied to the 6th Seal events of the "day of the Lord" when His time of wrath occurs. No way that happened already! Surely you can't be so deceived against understanding that. Even the Isaiah 54 Scripture where our Lord Jesus Christ was pulling that from in Luke 23 is about events for the end of this world, and not 2000 years ago. If you believe it is, then it's you that's been listening to the confusion of Full Preterism and Historicism.

 

[tgwprophet]

Gosh, there is a big difference between the Day of the lord coming and the onset of Tribulation. So many times I have read or heard that no one knows... once in reference to the rapture...next in reference to the return of Jesus at Armageddon, next at the return of Jesus to gather his saints, next in reference to Jesus return to claim his bride. And now lastly... at the advent of Tribulation...lol Such a simple thing yet can't be figure out.... why? Ex: One thinks there is no rapture so it cannot refer to a non-event. Another also believes that yet takes a different path. hmmmmmm....

We are increasingly nearing a point where world control via the UN will constrict Christians in order to halt expanding the Christian population. What can be the foundation for that? -- the inability of Christians to come to one accord over so many of the teachings. If can Christians educate others about the upcoming prophecies if the Christians don't understand them, don't stand in agreement?

I watch in dismay as I see no areement approached even in a Christian Forum. An old saying with some validity to it, goes something like this; " Scripture can be used to prove about any idea or understanding. " To this I would add... So too can historic language research of scripture. Satan of course uses this method to outwit the world.

With this understanding I would ask why are you all producing or defending your understanding about prophecy using these techniques? How many of you expect that the 2 witnesses will be teaching (when they do teach) by using arguable scripture understand or ancient language understanding? Did other prophets teach that way? It is my understanding (actually a lot more than "just" understanding) they will teach by citing new scripture, not reciting old scripture. (If old re-citing was done the arguments ensuing would take up the entire 42 months of their power.) Their teachings will be found in the next testament and before. Through the reading of many of you in this forum I recognize the ability you all can achieve if banded together in using a format that seeks a working model.

How then can you personally better your understanding other than by the continual reverting to translated scripture or ancient language understanding? This may be a shock, but.... try building a working model, one without personal desired understandings.
You have this authority as a Christian and oh so much more. Learning how to properly apply the wisdom God has for you is another issue and one that requires great humility. God Bless all of you trying.

BibleScribe I am in agreement with much of your understandings. The beginning of opening the seals began in 1948 and is continuing.
I noticed years ago, when i first began my studies that the seals being opened also allowed their revealing. Meaning when the seal was opened understanding flowed forth. Not all understandings were correct or aligned. As new seals are opened even more knowledge abounds hampered only by our ability to comprehend. The most profound understanding I discovered was the time increments as theologians claimed it is at hand... but never bloomed., most likely a $$$ decision on their idea.

 

[veteran]

Gosh, there is a big difference between the Day of the lord coming and the onset of Tribulation. So many times I have read or heard that no one knows... once in reference to the rapture...next in reference to the return of Jesus at Armageddon, next at the return of Jesus to gather his saints, next in reference to Jesus return to claim his bride. And now lastly... at the advent of Tribulation...lol Such a simple thing yet can't be figure out.... why? Ex: One thinks there is no rapture so it cannot refer to a non-event. Another also believes that yet takes a different path. hmmmmmm....

We are increasingly nearing a point where world control via the UN will constrict Christians in order to halt expanding the Christian population. What can be the foundation for that? -- the inability of Christians to come to one accord over so many of the teachings. If can Christians educate others about the upcoming prophecies if the Christians don't understand them, don't stand in agreement?

I watch in dismay as I see no areement approached even in a Christian Forum. An old saying with some validity to it, goes something like this; " Scripture can be used to prove about any idea or understanding. " To this I would add... So too can historic language research of scripture. Satan of course uses this method to outwit the world.

With this understanding I would ask why are you all producing or defending your understanding about prophecy using these techniques? How many of you expect that the 2 witnesses will be teaching (when they do teach) by using arguable scripture understand or ancient language understanding? Did other prophets teach that way? It is my understanding (actually a lot more than "just" understanding) they will teach by citing new scripture, not reciting old scripture. (If old re-citing was done the arguments ensuing would take up the entire 42 months of their power.) Their teachings will be found in the next testament and before. Through the reading of many of you in this forum I recognize the ability you all can achieve if banded together in using a format that seeks a working model

There will not be any "next testament", for all is already written.

It would appear you don't understand how prophecy in God's Holy Writ does not just stop for our times, but continues coverage all the way into His Eternity, even after the "lake of fire" event of Rev.20.

God's Word is not some dead document; it is The Living Word of God and is Eternal like He is.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, JLB.

Retrobyter says -

WRONG! That’s just wishful thinking and plain NUTS! As wrong as Full Preterists are to put the whole thing in the past, it is EQUALLY wrong to put the whole thing in the future!


The Word of God says - Matthew 24-

3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, "Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?"
4 And Jesus answered and said to them: "Take heed that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not troubled; for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

... but the end is not yet!

EVERYTHING Jesus taught the disciples in Matthew 24 is a reference to the time of the END!

It is evident, by the phrases He uses such as the one above where He says, but the end is not yet, that He is defining a countdown to the event of His actual RETURN to earth.

Furthermore, by using the descriptive language of verses 37-38, -

37 But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark,

it is clear that Jesus is teaching the reader that His discourse is referring to the last few years before His return, specifically the last 120 years of the time of the end, for that is how long it took Noah to build the Ark.

The Word of god is clear to all who would read it. Jesus was clearly defining the last few years of the end of this age!

I would say that anyone who would try and deceive the brethren otherwise has some sort of deceptive agenda.

Retrobyter, I don't know what you could possibly be thinking?


Thanks, JLB

What would be the point in showing you more Scripture when you don't honor the ones we are talking about now?! When you won't honestly investigate the Greek texts behind Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21, you are proving that you don't honor these Scriptures. I don't care WHAT the English versions say if you won't investigate your own interpretation of these English versions! Would seeing the Greek versions of these three viewpoints on the Olivet Discourse side by side help? No, none of that would help. only if the Ruach haQodesh opens your eyes to what you're reading will you see the truth.

You remind me of two passages of Scripture; so, I'll leave you with them:

Matt 7:6
6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
KJV

Luke 16:25-31
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.
KJV

 

[us2are1]

There is only a three and a half year tribulation where the Lords two witnesses will shut up the heavens and remove the water from earth for 1260 days. The first half of Daniels final week was the Lord's ministry of confirming a covenant with many for half the week and then the witnesses will come and continue the second half of the week just before the end of the world.

 

[Jon-Marc]

Why do you say that - because the Day of The Lord comes as a thief in the night?

We are given the dates of when things will happen--only that they will. If we are born again, then we have nothing to fear--not death, the tribulation, or anything else life and our adversary, the devil, throws at us.

 

[JLB]

There is only a three and a half year tribulation where the Lords two witnesses will shut up the heavens and remove the water from earth for 1260 days. The first half of Daniels final week was the Lord's ministry of confirming a covenant with many for half the week and then the witnesses will come and continue the second half of the week just before the end of the world.

There is only a three and a half year tribulation ... Agreed.


The first half of Daniels final week was the Lord's ministry of confirming a covenant with many for half the week... Goes against the scripture.


26 "And after the sixty-two weeks Messiah shall be cut off, but not for Himself; And the people of the prince who is to come Shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end of it shall be with a flood, And till the end of the war desolations are determined. 27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."


Point #1 - These two events are after the 69th week. One in 33 AD and one in 70 AD are marking distinct time periods so the reader will understand!. Then, meaning sometime after the previous events, he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week. What marks the beginning of the last seven year time period is the confirming of the covenant for one seven.

I don't find this existing covenant The Lord confirmed for a seven year period, in scripture.

Would you give me the scriptures that outline this covenant that was confirmed by the Lord for a seven year period?


Point # 2 - The 70 week time frame is outlined in scripture into 3 distinct and separate time periods.

25 "Know therefore and understand, That from the going forth of the command To restore and build Jerusalem Until Messiah the Prince, There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;

Seven weeks

Sixty two weeks

The 70th week of verse 27.

Although there is is scriptural evidence here that tells us the whole 70 week period is broken into 3 separate time periods with pauses, there is no scripture to validate a pause in the 70th week.

The 70th week has two half's, however the whole 7 year period runs as one time frame. That is why it's called the 70th week. If there was a pause it would be defined as 1/2 week and a 1/2 week

27 Then he shall confirm a covenant with many for one week; But in the middle of the week He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering. And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate, Even until the consummation, which is determined, Is poured out on the desolate."

The one who confirms a covenant for 1 week is the one who brings an end to sacrifice and offering. Sacrifice and offering continued until 70 AD.

The Temple in Jerusalem is about to be rebuilt - http://www.templeinstitute.org

The existing covenant that will be confirmed for a seven year period is the Jerusalem Covenant, it will allow the Jewish priests to rebuild this temple - http://christianacti...g/covenant.html

This covenant states that Jerusalem belongs to the people of Israel. It was made in 1992 and signed by many. "Many" is a reference to the Seventy of Moses day.


Please consider this Temple and the Jerusalem Covenant at the links I provided.


Thanks, JLB

 

[dragonfly]

Does anyone know why the 70th week didn't follow the 69th week - contiguously - like the previous 69 weeks?

 

[teleiosis]

Because inbetween the 69th and the 70th 'seven' the Messiah had to be cut off (karat = crucified), the Temple had to be destroyed (some 35-40 years later) and wars will continue until the end. Dan 9:26

War has been non-stop since then.

The split between the 62 'sevens' and the one 'seven' is the Church Age.

The Church Age was begun with the First Trumpet on Pentecost in A.D. 32-33 or so, and it will end with the Last Trumpet which sounds whenever the Day of the Lord comes.

The First Trumpet associated with the Festival of Weeks (Pentecost, or seven weeks plus one) is not the first Trumpet of God's Wrath.
The Last Trumpet associated with the Festival of Trumpets, or Rosh ha-Shanah is not the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.

 

[veteran]

....

The existing covenant that will be confirmed for a seven year period is the Jerusalem Covenant, it will allow the Jewish priests to rebuild this temple - http://christianacti...g/covenant.html

This covenant states that Jerusalem belongs to the people of Israel. It was made in 1992 and signed by many. "Many" is a reference to the Seventy of Moses day.


Please consider this Temple and the Jerusalem Covenant at the links I provided.


Thanks, JLB

That makes sense because it was around 1993 that I recall some major kind of agreement was signed in Israel, and then the present Islamic jihad really took off. But does that Jerusalem covenant represent 'league' by false messiah with a 'small people' per Dan.11? Not sure about that.

Does anyone know why the 70th week didn't follow the 69th week - contiguously - like the previous 69 weeks?

Are you suggesting that the final "one week" has to be continuous with the previous periods? There's no Biblical support for that. But there is Biblical support for the idea of gaps in prophetic fulfillment; Isaiah 61 being the main one our Lord Jesus showed us per Luke 4. Christ stopped short reading all of Isaiah 61:1-2 at His first coming, the last part of Isaiah 61:2 is for His second coming. Zechariah 9:9 & 9:10 has a time gap between His two advents (comings). There are many time gaps in prophecy per the OT prophets if one looks closely. So the gap fulfillment of the final "one week" of Dan.9 shouldn't be that big of a step to grasp.

 

[dragonfly]

Thanks, teleiosis and veteran, for your replies.

I very much agree that the fulfilment of prophecies are frequently separated by gaps, even within a single sentence of prophecy, there can be significant gaps. But Daniel's 'seventy weeks' offers no such luxury, unless the sevens in the three periods mentioned, are to be measured differently from each other - particularly the seventieth week. But even then, what would be the historical or prophetic basis for that?

The split between the 62 'sevens' and the one 'seven' is the Church Age.

Wouldn't this mean that 'the Church Age' would have to come to an end before the 70th week? Didn't 'the Church Age' begin before the oblation ceased, and continued on after it? Doesn't this strike you as an unsatisfactory explanation?

Are you suggesting that the final "one week" has to be continuous with the previous periods?

Yes I am - to be consistent.

There's no Biblical support for that.

Are you saying, then, that there was a gap between the 'seven' and the 'sixty two', and if so, what is the 'biblical support' for believing that the 'seven' and the 'sixty two' did not also contain gaps?

 

[bytheway]

The Christian walk is tribulation! The tribulation of self interest. For example, everybody wants a breakthrough, but few are willing to be broken. A marathon runner is willing to push himself to the limit and hit the wall for a second wind on the other side. What do we do? Covet our little pet doctrines and foist them on others. Showing how scholarly and erudite we think we are.I don't know about you but I've been in a Great Tribulation for years. Please stop with the escapism religion.

 

[teleiosis]

Escapism? No, the Great Tribulation will be a time, scope, and severity of Tribulation never before seen by the Church in the world's attack upon us! It comes about by two laws which come with the midpoint abomination: Rev 13:15-17.

This Great Tribulation, which Jesus forewarned us, will decimate the true Church. But before it completely eliminates all but the most hardy who can live off the land, God will shorten it (indeed, the Greek says amputate as you would "dock" an animal's tail: it is abruptly cut off).

And God will pay back the wicked with righteous and just tribulation for the tribulation wrongly and unjustly done to us.

The one 'seven,' however, is not the "tribulation period." The Great Tribulation is a very short time frame with in the one 'seven' starting at the midpoint abomination and ending whenever God the Father begins the Day of the Lord which has Jesus rescuing us before His coming Wrath!

I very much agree that the fulfilment of prophecies are frequently separated by gaps, even within a single sentence of prophecy, there can be significant gaps. But Daniel's 'seventy weeks' offers no such luxury, unless the sevens in the three periods mentioned, are to be measured differently from each other - particularly the seventieth week. But even then, what would be the historical or prophetic basis for that?

The prophetic basis for that are the three events Gabriel tells Daniel which come between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven' in Dan 9:26.

Wouldn't this mean that 'the Church Age' would have to come to an end before the 70th week? Didn't 'the Church Age' begin before the oblation ceased, and continued on after it? Doesn't this strike you as an unsatisfactory explanation?

In a very neat way it would, but God is going to sift the wheat and remove the chaff. Jesus tells us we will be handed over for persecution; that all will come under the "test." This will be the test of the Ladocian Church that mixes good with bad: they will have to refuse the "mark" and the Daniel test of satanic worship and suffer the consequences. Only those who pass and forfeit their lives will save them eternally.

Are you saying, then, that there was a gap between the 'seven' and the 'sixty two', and if so, what is the 'biblical support' for believing that the 'seven' and the 'sixty two' did not also contain gaps?

Each period runs totally. In Revelation, the one 'seven' is split in its halves. However, while it is split in half, the halves run concurrently so there is one continuous 'seven.'

The split between the seven 'sevens' and the sixty-two 'sevens' has to do with the formation of the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. In Daniel, these two periods are linked by the word "and." That word is in the Hebrew text; it is not an aid in translation.

In between the sixty-two 'sevens' and the one 'seven' Gabriel lists three things: Jesus' crucifixion, the destruction of the Temple (some decades later) and the stretching aspect of war as continuing and ongoing process.

 

[dragonfly]

teleiosis, thanks for your reply.

I am not convinced that the tribulation Jesus mentioned, is still to come, especially in light of the seige of Jerusalem running up to AD 70.

Regarding the rebuilding of the Temple, didn't that take place during the 'seven weeks'? (I'll look at Daniel 9, again.)

John 2:20 Then said the Jews, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou rear it up in three days?

 

[veteran]

Thanks, teleiosis and veteran, for your replies.

I very much agree that the fulfilment of prophecies are frequently separated by gaps, even within a single sentence of prophecy, there can be significant gaps. But Daniel's 'seventy weeks' offers no such luxury, unless the sevens in the three periods mentioned, are to be measured differently from each other - particularly the seventieth week. But even then, what would be the historical or prophetic basis for that?

Does that mean you think the Book of Daniel is already fulfilled, simply because it's an Old Testament Book? Kind of sounds like that's what you're saying with that last sentence. The prophetic basis (not historical basis) of the final "one week" of Dan.9 is aligned with events for the end of this world just prior to Christ's return. The events given with that "one week" are linked to the placing of the abomination that makes desolate and an ending of sacrifice event in Jerusalem, i.e., an idol abomination placed in the temple at Jerusalem to cause the daily sacrifice to end. So it cannot be hap-hazardly disconnected from that abomination event which is also given in Dan.8, 11 & 12. And the Dan.8, 11, and 12 Scripture about that contains events which align with our Lord's Book of Revelation for the end of days, including events Paul gave in 2 Thess.2.

So an attempt to 'isolate' the Dan.9:27 "one week" by itself is fallacy.

Yes I am - to be consistent.

Consistent by who's standard though? If God's Word doesn't establish that as written first, then attempts to change it to our own idea of consistency won't work. Just because all the 70 symbol week periods being fulfilled right after each other appears logical, that doesn't mean it's keeping to how it's written. We must use the order which God applied in the Scripture, not our own concept of consistency.

Are you saying, then, that there was a gap between the 'seven' and the 'sixty two', and if so, what is the 'biblical support' for believing that the 'seven' and the 'sixty two' did not also contain gaps?

The Biblical support for the first two periods are given by their 'event' fulfillment. The first two periods, the decree to rebuild the temple and Jerusalem, and the time of Christ's first coming were historical marked events. But the events of the final "one week" have yet to be realized historically. That's how we know there was no time gap between the first two periods, but that there is a gap with the fulfillment of the final "one week".

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, dragonfly.

Thanks, teleiosis and veteran, for your replies.

I very much agree that the fulfilment of prophecies are frequently separated by gaps, even within a single sentence of prophecy, there can be significant gaps. But Daniel's 'seventy weeks' offers no such luxury, unless the sevens in the three periods mentioned, are to be measured differently from each other - particularly the seventieth week. But even then, what would be the historical or prophetic basis for that?

Wouldn't this mean that 'the Church Age' would have to come to an end before the 70th week? Didn't 'the Church Age' begin before the oblation ceased, and continued on after it? Doesn't this strike you as an unsatisfactory explanation?

Yes I am - to be consistent.
Are you saying, then, that there was a gap between the 'seven' and the 'sixty two', and if so, what is the 'biblical support' for believing that the 'seven' and the 'sixty two' did not also contain gaps?

The latest "gap" in the 70 sevens of Gavri'el's prophecy shared with Dani'el was IN THE MIDDLE OF THE 70TH SEVEN! After Yeshua`s "ministry" of 3.5 years (actually, His offer of the Kingdom and Himself as its King), HE pronounced them "desolate" (Matthew 23:37-39)! (And, for those who can't see the obvious, the MIDDLE of the 70th seven is "AFTER" the 62 sevens.)

 

[dragonfly]

bytheway said

I don't know about you but I've been in a Great Tribulation for years.

Couldn't agree more! It's a slow burn toxic cocktail of subtle opposition to truth and truthfulness, in-your-face idolatry, temptation, spiritual oppressions and attacks and personal losses. Well, perhaps written down in one sentence that's not so subtle, but, it took me a long while recognise that I'd been on the Adversary's hitlist from the moment I first prayed to be saved, as a small child.

 

[tgwprophet]

Son of Man the covenant spoken of is the peace plan established by the anti-christ and confirmed by Satan. When the anti-christ is mortally wounded Satan overtakes his body.... possess it. When Satan enters the inner sanctum it is the "celebration ceremony" for the even when he overtook the body of the anti-christ. When Satan has the image made off the beast and gives it life... where do you think he gets that life? Of course. he gets it from the anti-christ whose body he took over, hence the reason the image is made for the beast. When Satan enters the inner-sanctum for one week... half way through that week he emerges in all of Satan's beauty. and he confirms the covenant if which the anti-christ developed. ....a working model.