How close is the Seven Year Tribulation?

[Floyd]

Thank you for your response and caring again!

Have a great respect for you and your view,

Old sparring partner Jack

btw look at all the diverse statements of faith per each denom./non-denom. to extremely diverse, and you don't think there is some kind of spiritual battle going on big time - only "1" statement of faith is valid???

Hi Jack; misunderstanding here.
There is a battle waging at present, which has been getting worse since the Cross.
The "spirit" of anti-Christ has been abroad on the earth since the Cross, and as you know Paul and other of the Apostles wrote on that fact.
Regards.
Floyd.

[SIZE=28pt]Antichrist Revelation chapter 13:8[/SIZE]​

[SIZE=14pt]V.8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall (a)worship him every one whose name is not written in the (b)book of the life of the Lamb slain, from the foundation of the world.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt](a) Here is reached probably the highest point on earth (as opposed to heaven) for the beast/Satan, who now has many of the earth's population openly worshipping him directly, and via. his false messiah and false prophet, some believing that he is the true God. It is quite possible that the charade of Satan is so convincing that the established religions will accept him as Messiah (in the case of the Jews,) the risen Christ (in the case of Christendom,) and the hidden Imam (in the case of Islam.) This especially so as the beast will "hate the whore," (Rev. 17:16) and appear to destroy her, which is clearly false righteousness for the effect of drawing their large groups together. The question arises, who is this entity described as "the beast?" Chapter 2 of Daniel describes the figure in Nebuchadnezzar's dream. When the legs are reached they are described as iron (V.33,) and from history are clearly military and religious Rome. The ending of the military phase of Rome started in the 4th century A.D. under Constantine. He and his very influential mother Helena, began the conversion of the empire into a military and religious body, for many reasons, including the main one, effective control of the empire and people. Constantine set up his own capital at Byzantium/Stambul (Istambul) which he re-named Constantinople. This alienated Rome, which by the 11th century A.D., split completely into the East and West of the original "Holy Roman Empire." Since then the two have established separate orthodoxies, i.e. Eastern Orthodox, and Roman Church, (two legs.) The feet of the dream (Dan. 2:41) and the toes (V.42) are the subject of our present study. Verse 1 describes it as having 7 heads and 10 horns (the horns are assumed to be the toes of the "image" Dan. 2:41.) Other references to it are in Dan. 7:7 "ten horns," and 7:20 "ten horns." In 7:20 and 7:24 another horn rises and subdues 3 of them, and becomes very powerful. It is that horn in its power base that "makes war with the saints," 7:21 and 7:25. In Rev. 13, the beast has 7 heads. In Dan. 7:20 the ten horns are on one[/SIZE] head, implying that the 7 nations have become one power (Confederation,) under the most powerful horn 7:21. The identity of the little horn is the next concern. In Dan. 8:23 we are shown that he arrives out of the divided kingdom of Alexander the Great, (8:21-22,) which was divided between his four Generals at the death of Alexander. We also have many Scripture references to him. I.e; in Dan. 8:23 the correct Hebrew shows that "the transgressions," (against Israel) are to reach a peak, before "he," "shall stand up." This clearly points to the Tribulation imposed on the Jews by him (Satan) in the background, and almost certainly his full exposure ("standing up") will correspond with the breaking of "the covenant," (Dan. 9:27.) His highest representative on earth is commonly called "Antichrist." Through the Ages he has had various roles on earth i.e. (Isa. 14:4,) (Isa. 14:12,) (Isa. 14:25,) (Dan. 8:23,) (7:8) (Dan. 9:26,) (Dan. 11:36,) (Mic. 5:5,) (2 Thess. 2:3,) (2 Thess. 2:8,) (Rev. 13:1,) and (Rev. 13:18.) Some of the above apply to his future role as Antichrist.

[SIZE=14pt]IN SUMMARY, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (Confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's Trouble," for 3½ years. However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power[/SIZE] (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc. (As opposed to His first Advent as the Son of Man, and the Sacrificial Lamb.) Simultaneously much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the "wrath of God," (Rev. 16:1.)

[SIZE=14pt]There are some who claim that there is no such entity as "Antichrist," because the word is not used explicitly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This is not so, and is intended to deceive and unsettle those people that want the Truth regarding the future, from the Word of God. 1John 2:18 refers to the Antichrist in both singular and plural, the singular to the person, as embodied in the above text, and the plural in the general attitude and conviction in people against the person and Salvation work of Christ. The references in 2Thess. 2:3-9, is specific to the person, and descriptive of his actions in the last 3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of time, prior to Christ's 2nd Advent![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Any who try to argue against these truths, are identifying themselves as "antichrist" in the plural![/SIZE]

 

[shturt678]

Thank you again for caring!

Only one little itsy bitsy problem the signified 3.5 (Rev.11:2, 3) began in 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24. IIThess.2:3-12 has been coming to pass for 1,000s of years or a little less.

Old Jack watching for 'identity' theft.

 

[Floyd]

Thank you again for caring!

Only one little itsy bitsy problem the signified 3.5 (Rev.11:2, 3) began in 70 A.D. in light of Lk.21:24. IIThess.2:3-12 has been coming to pass for 1,000s of years or a little less.

Old Jack watching for 'identity' theft.

That's why you are wrong Jack; even Retro has shown you that.
One way of getting you to think/pray/study this, is to ask you to read about "Jacobs Trouble"; and then tell me irrefutably from scripture and History when that was?
No waffling allowed Jack; just clear , clean study!
I am looking forward to your answer; but remember; no waffle or obfuscation allowed; only clear precise dates please from 2000 years ago!?
Over to you Jack.
If you muddle on this, it will be hard to take you seriously again!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

That's why you are wrong Jack; even Retro has shown you that.
One way of getting you to think/pray/study this, is to ask you to read about "Jacobs Trouble"; and then tell me irrefutably from scripture and History when that was?
No waffling allowed Jack; just clear , clean study!
I am looking forward to your answer; but remember; no waffle or obfuscation allowed; only clear precise dates please from 2000 years ago!?
Over to you Jack.
If you muddle on this, it will be hard to take you seriously again!
Floyd.

Thank you for your response again!

A walk in the park regarding "Jacob's Trouble," ie, thank you. The errant, fallacious, and corrupt time replacement's understanding of "Jacob's Trouble" viewed from the time of the Babylonian monarachy to the time after the ALLEDGED 'RAPTURE' of the Church, otherwise called the "Great Tribulation Period" (Jeremiah chapters 27-30).

"Jacob's Trouble" is nearing its end with the judgment of the nations, and the deliverance of the true spiritual Israel ("1" Church = "Kingdom of God"). Satan in his person is about to be loosed (Rev.20:7). Let's not project this off to some future time out of touch from reality and us today my brother who does really cares where most could care less.

The ol' 3.5 routine, ie, Rev.11:2, 3; 12:6, 14 = "a season and seasons and half of a season" = Dan.7:24; 12:7 = "time, times, and a half time" all of which end at the "1" forthcoming Parousia (Rev.20:9, 10).

Rev.11:2, "....and the city, the holy one, they shall tread it down for forty-two months." The symbolism of the words, "the holy city they shall tread down," is taken from the prophecy of Jesus recorded in Lk.21:24: "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Forget about a conversion of the whole future conversion of the Jews, ie, they have been, and already are being converted resulting in Jewish Christians up to a remnant at the "1" future Return of Jesus, the end.

Rom.11:25, 26, "The seasons of the Gentiles," the "forty-two months," (Rev.11:2) are not followed by a millennum, a national conversion of the Jews, but the seventy trumpet, the last "woe" (Rev.11:14-19), the consummation.

Old Jack, more of a 'middle of the road' type muddler.

 

[Floyd]

Thank you for your response again!

A walk in the park regarding "Jacob's Trouble," ie, thank you. The errant, fallacious, and corrupt time replacement's understanding of "Jacob's Trouble" viewed from the time of the Babylonian monarachy to the time after the ALLEDGED 'RAPTURE' of the Church, otherwise called the "Great Tribulation Period" (Jeremiah chapters 27-30).

"Jacob's Trouble" is nearing its end with the judgment of the nations, and the deliverance of the true spiritual Israel ("1" Church = "Kingdom of God"). Satan in his person is about to be loosed (Rev.20:7). Let's not project this off to some future time out of touch from reality and us today my brother who does really cares where most could care less.

Not so Jack! It is yet to be! See: Jacob's Trouble http://www.revelationsmessage.co.uk/Jacobs Trouble.htm


The ol' 3.5 routine, ie, Rev.11:2, 3; 12:6, 14 = "a season and seasons and half of a season" = Dan.7:24; 12:7 = "time, times, and a half time" all of which end at the "1" forthcoming Parousia (Rev.20:9, 10).



Rev.11:2, "....and the city, the holy one, they shall tread it down for forty-two months." The symbolism of the words, "the holy city they shall tread down," is taken from the prophecy of Jesus recorded in Lk.21:24: "Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled." Forget about a conversion of the whole future conversion of the Jews, ie, they have been, and already are being converted resulting in Jewish Christians up to a remnant at the "1" future Return of Jesus, the end.

You are missing correct teaching Jack! The Jews will not be converted until the event of Zech.12:10! I asked you to study that a few days ago!


Rom.11:25, 26, "The seasons of the Gentiles," the "forty-two months," (Rev.11:2) are not followed by a millennum, a national conversion of the Jews, but the seventy trumpet, the last "woe" (Rev.11:14-19), the consummation.

Way out in that teaching Jack! See: The Jew, the Gentile, and Christ


Old Jack, more of a 'middle of the road' type muddler.


We are too far from getting you to see differently Jack!!!
Floyd.

 

[shturt678]

We are too far from getting you to see differently Jack!!!

Floyd.

Thank you again for caring and your response again!

I sure don't run with the majority and secure in the crowd, however I'm pretty much aligned with the majority of Christians on the planet with their Amillennial view.

Old Jack

 

[Floyd]

[SIZE=14pt]IN SUMMARY, the "little horn," Antichrist emerges from the 4th beast (Confederacy) as its leader. Initially magnanimous to Israel, there is a 3½ year period of peace for them. After the first 3½ years, he breaks the agreement with Israel and they enter persecution (Jer. 30:7,) known in prophecy as "Jacob's Trouble," for 3½ years. However, this is the stage of the dramatic re-entry of the Christ of Jehovah onto the world stage for the first time in Power[/SIZE] (Dan. 2:34-35, 44 and 45,) (Isa.) (Zech.) (Ezk.) etc. (As opposed to His first Advent as the Son of Man, and the Sacrificial Lamb.) Simultaneously much is happening to the nations of the world, which is not of Satan, but the "wrath of God," (Rev. 16:1.)

[SIZE=14pt]There are some who claim that there is no such entity as "Antichrist," because the word is not used explicitly.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]This is not so, and is intended to deceive and unsettle those people that want the Truth regarding the future, from the Word of God. 1John 2:18 refers to the Antichrist in both singular and plural, the singular to the person, as embodied in the above text, and the plural in the general attitude and conviction in people against the person and Salvation work of Christ. The references in 2Thess. 2:3-9, is specific to the person, and descriptive of his actions in the last 3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of time, prior to Christ's 2nd Advent![/SIZE]
[SIZE=14pt]Any who try to argue against these truths, are identifying themselves as "antichrist" in the plural![/SIZE]

[SIZE=14pt]Floyd.[/SIZE]

 

[DaDad]

Hi Floyd,

[SIZE=14pt]Any who try to argue against these truths, are identifying themselves as "antichrist" in the plural![/SIZE]

I would propose that anyone who presents "incorrect "truths" [SIZE=14pt]are "antichrist" in the plural![/SIZE]



So now that I've got your attention, please allow me to cite your incorrect truth:

... [SIZE=14pt]descriptive of his actions in the last 3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of time[/SIZE]

Your statement presumes there is a first 3 1/2 years, and a second 3 1/2 years. This 7 year premise comes from the 9th Chapter of Daniel, which has NOTHING to do with the Tribulation era, except that the a/c "shall come" after the seventy weeks:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”




Hope this helps,
DD

 

[Floyd]

Floyd, on 10 Jun 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

... [SIZE=14pt]descriptive of his actions in the last 3[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt]½[/SIZE][SIZE=14pt] years of time[/SIZE]

Your statement presumes there is a first 3 1/2 years, and a second 3 1/2 years. This 7 year premise comes from the 9th Chapter of Daniel, which has NOTHING to do with the Tribulation era, except that the a/c "shall come" after the seventy weeks:

Daniel 9:27
27 And he shall make a strong covenant with many for one week; and for half of the week he shall cause sacrifice and offering to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one who makes desolate, until the decreed end is poured out on the desolator.”




Hope this helps,
DD

As said; your opinion is welcome.
Floyd.

 

[DaDad]

And as parallel posted in "Will the real "Antichrist" please stand up?":


PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE allow me to present the impossibilities of the seventy sevens = 490 years, wherein the seventieth week is the Tribulation week, -- false doctrine.

I would LOVE to have a full discussion of the specifics per the following synopsis:


In the book, “Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation,” John Walvoord writes regarding the interpretation of the seventy “weeks":


1. Per Walvoord: "...Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”, P.218

2. Per Walvoord: "...as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’", P.217

3. Per Walvoord: "...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keit and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.” , P.218

4. Per Montgomery: "... efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology.", P. 217

5. Per Walvoord: "Some amillenarians, however, use a literal year time unit for the first sixty-nine weeks but an indefinite period for the last seven years, as in the case of Philip Mauro...", P. 218

6. Per Montgomery: "... the great Catholic chronographers ... as well as those of all subsequent chronographers (including the great Scalinger and Sir Isaac Newton) have failed.. And Edward Young too, finds no satisfactory conclusion for the seventy sevens ... and leaves it without a satisfactory explanation.", P. 217

7. Per Young, regarding "the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem": "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God." , P. 224 -

John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971


8. Per Newton: "We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation."

Isaac Newton, "Observations upon the Prophecies of Daniel, and the Apocalypse of St. John (1733)", http://www.isaacnewt...se/pt1ch10.html



So where I would propose that everyone is entitled to an "opinion", I would most strongly adjure them to achieve KNOWLEDGE.


With Best Regards,
DD

 

[shturt678]

Thank you folks for caring!

Dan.9:24, "seven weeks" A.V, where a truer rendition is "seven heptads." Again this season began 538 B.C. when Cyrus allowed the captive Israel to return thus due to this season lasts till the "1" forthcoming Parousia, we are near the end of the so called "seven year tribulation" where too many are looking for its start?

Old Jack

 

[[email protected]]

I was just curious to know what people thought as to how close we were to the seven year tribulation? I just wanted to say, I didn't really want to turn this thread into a does a seven year tribulation exist vs does not exist thread. If you don't believe in it, great, vote you don't believe in it and move on, or start another thread on why you don't believe in it.

Joshua David

Interesting poll results. Nearly 50% of respondents believe either that there isn't any such thing as the tribulation or that it won't happen in the foreseeable future.

So much for Christian fantasy and science fiction.

The problem isn't with the Bible or traditional eschatological interpretations - its the promulgation of fiction like the rubbish publishing by Hal Lindsey and company (The Late Great Planet Earth - and all its numerous revisions). Mr. Lindsay, by the way, doesn't even believe his own tripe. Back in the 70's his home was built in California very near the San Andreas fault, a major earthquake zone in the USA. Mr. Lindsey predicted numerous earthquakes prior to Jesus' second coming and then proceeded to build his home on top of one. Either he doesn't believe his own words or he is tempting God - either way he's a loser.

Satellite technology in the 1980's led to an explosion of TV preachers who were more interested in profit than prophecy. One of them, Mr. Jimmie Baker, went to jail as a result of his shenanigans. One of his sexual adventures took place in a hotel a few miles from where I'm writing this post. People used to arrive there and ask for the room, apparently in an effort to enhance their own libido.

In the second decade of the twenty first century, it is recognized by most leaders that the legitimacy of the gospel was seriously impaired by these TV snake oil salesmen. They are still there today, diluting the true faith with their apostasy and abominations.

Does all this impact the tribulation? It may be a contributing cause, as the Bible says the Great Apostacy, the falling away from the faith, will happen just before the antiChrist assumes power. Be that as it may, the events of history are in the hands of the Almighty, who has said in no uncertain terms that we are in for a very rough ride. Some of us more than others I fear.

There are certain clues as to when the period of tribulation will begin. Major turning points in history all have specific events that trigger change - a tipping point in events if you will accept it. The Bible describes these preceding events and mentions the tipping point - the beginning of trouble. Oddly, the beginning of trouble is a false sense of peace and safety and the preceding events ALL seem to indicate that the focus is in one place and upon one person - the anti-Christ.

The tribulation will begin, according to most legitimate interpretations of scripture (both Christian and Muslim, by the way) when anti-Christ assumes power.

As of this writing there is no such figure on the world stage. Rumors abound as they always have, but nothing of substance has been heard.

We will all of us have to wait and see.

One thing is certain, however. It feels very near. Don't you agree?

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

 

[[email protected]]

The 7 year tribulation isn't the only 7 year time period of importance in prophecy.

Based on the writings of John Nelson Darby in the mid-19th century, the calculation was supposed to extend his interpretation of divine dispensations, or changes in God's attitude and/or plan throughout history (despite the fact the Bible clearly states God does not change).

Darby began by attempting to clear up a centuries old confusion about the Biblically predicted millennium - a thousand year reign of Christ upon the earth (again despite the fact the Bible states one day=1,000 years and 1,000 years=a day - basically a statement about the timeless nature of eternity). The Kingdom of God on earth, at least according to the prophet Daniel, was never supposed to end. Be that as it may, at least three separate doctrines about the millennium sprouted up (pre, post and amillennialism).

Mr. Darby attempted to clear up the confusion about the millennialism by adding his own version of end times eschatology, thus muddying the waters further. The 7 year tribulation, a period of discord during which the anti-Christ would raise his or her ugly denunciations of God in public was part of Darby's scenario.

But in all of Darby's lengthy tome, he does not once acknowledge the Biblical principle of the shemitah, the sabbath year.

According to divinely appointed times and seasons, the Hebrews were to observe every seventh day as a day of rest. They were to cease their labors and devote the day to worship and prayer. Likewise, they were commanded to observe every seventh year as a sabbath year in which no ground was to be tilled, in which debts were to be forgiven, slaves freed, real estate returned to its originally inherited owner(s) and so on. The passage of time was thus rendered in weeks of 7 years each.

Additionally, there would be a 50th year called Jubilee which would begin its observation during the first year after the last sabbath year on the feast of Yom Kippur. It wasn't an additional year, but was a celebration year observed and counted at the same time as the first year of the new week of years. But when Israel ceased to exist as an earthly kingdom the divine clock of sabbath and Jubilee years stopped. Even Jewish scholars of the present day cannot calculate when the years are supposed to be observed.

But the divine clock seemed to begin running again in 1917 with the event of the Balfour Declaration. This was an official legitimate recognition that Israel ought to be reestablished in its original geographic location in Palestine. 50 years later, in the Jubilee year of 1967-1968 the IDF liberated Jerusalem. For the first time in thousands of years, the City of David was once again under Jewish authority. Do your calculations. The next Jubilee year will happen in 2017-2018.

One of the problems with calendar dating and calculations which mark seasons and times is that the western Gregorian calendar does not match the calendars of the ancient semitic peoples. The Gregorian Christian calendar, for example, is based on a solar year. The Muslim calendar is based upon the lunar year or month. Hebrews have two calendars and track the passage of time both ways. To add difficulty to temporal calculations, the Gregorian calendar adds an additional day every forth year - leap year. The Hebrew lunar calendar adds an entire month every forth year. Consequently about 12.25 months are added to the tracking every 50 years to keep things even. Its bulky and clumsy, but strange events seem to follow in its wake.

My point in all of this is that the divine clock of seven year cycles and Jubilee observances seems to have restarted as an act of God, not man. This follows exactly the predictions of the prophet Ezekiel among others. The invisible clockwork mechanism seems to have restarted in 1917 and we are all of us following it whether we like it or not, whether we know it or not. Therefore the idea that there is one particular week of years we need to be concerned with is totally short of the mark - unless of course the reader is privy to knowledge about divine seasons that even scholars cannot calculate.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

PS
It has been said that a man is known by the company he keeps. Does the reader know that Mr. Darby, who also formulated the rapture theory, was a consort of witches?
see John 17:15 (which part of NOT does the reader not understand about Jesus' words?)

 

[Trekson]

Hi rjp, Regarding John 17:15, that is a prayer ranging from vss. 6-19 that is specifically for the 11 remaining disciples (see vs. 12). Christ's prayer for the church in general is in vss. 20-26.

 

[Retrobyter]

Shalom, Jack.

Thank you again for caring and your response again!

I sure don't run with the majority and secure in the crowd, however I'm pretty much aligned with the majority of Christians on the planet with their Amillennial view.

Old Jack

This is not a “majority rules” situation. Two things one must remember: First, not everyone who says to Yeshua`, “Lord, Lord,” is born again. And second, the majority is all too often in the wrong!

Matthew 7:21-23
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
KJV

Matthew 7:13-14
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
KJV

Just because someone claims to be a “Christian” doesn’t make it so. To the contrary, there will be MANY who claim to be “Christians” who have never been justified by God; they are simply attempting to get into God’s Kingdom by trying to make their good deeds outweigh their bad deeds. That’s a BAD gamble!

 

[Trekson]

I would make the observation that the majority of christians have a pre-millennial view. Amillennialism is pretty low on the popularity scale, imo.

 

[keras]

Hi rjp, Regarding John 17:15, that is a prayer ranging from vss. 6-19 that is specifically for the 11 remaining disciples (see vs. 12). Christ's prayer for the church in general is in vss. 20-26.

So Trekson, if Jesus asked God to 'only keep His disciples from the evil one', where is the hope that anyone goes to heaven? All the disciples were tested 'unto death', except John, who was exiled. There is nothing in John 17:20-26 about any removal, [rapture] just clarification that there is but one true ekkelasia.

Re the OP of this thread: How close is the 7 year tribulation?
Firstly there is no 7 year Trib. The Great Tribulation, as described in Revelation, lasts only 3.5 years, 42 months or 1260 days. Then comes the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign.
But the correct answer for how long from 2015 until the Return, is: at least 20 years. This figure is easily obtained from simple calculation of the Seventh Seal: There was silence in heaven for about a half hour... We have 2 witnesses to the fact that heavenly time is very different to earthly time. Psalm 90:4, 2 Peter 3:8 One day in heaven equals 1000 years on earth. A half hour is 1/48 of a day, therefore 1/48th of 1000 years is 'about' 20 years.
Don't tell me the Seventh Seal has been opened! We await the terrible Day of the Lord, the Sixth Seal, that will come when the enemies commence their attack on Israel with nukes. Jer. 49:35, Psalm 83, Psalm 18:7-15, Isaiah 66:15-16

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, Your words: "So Trekson, if Jesus asked God to 'only keep His disciples from the evil one', where is the hope that anyone goes to heaven? All the disciples were tested 'unto death', except John, who was exiled."

I stand by my statement, Context is everything. There are plenty of other scriptures that deal with the highlighted part. This particular passage is Christ's prayer for the remaining 11 disciples.

Your words: "Firstly there is no 7 year Trib. The Great Tribulation, as described in Revelation, lasts only 3.5 years, 42 months or 1260 days. Then comes the Return of Jesus for His Millennium reign."

The words "The great trib lasts for 42 months, etc." are not in scripture. I believe the Great Trib. will be much shorter than that, however, I do agree that there is no mention of a seven year "tribulation period" in the bible.

Your words: "But the correct answer for how long from 2015 until the Return, is: at least 20 years. This figure is easily obtained from simple calculation of the Seventh Seal: There was silence in heaven for about a half hour.."

Nothing in scripture states that a day is as a thousand years is a verifiable guideline for the timing of prophecy, it's just a comparison for how long eternity is.

Your words: "Don't tell me the Seventh Seal has been opened!"

I won't, as I don't believe the first seal has been opened yet.

 

[keras]

Well Trekson, we have discussed most of that before.
Because you are fixated on a pre-trib rapture, that colours all the way you view prophecy. Error compounds error.

Just a comment on the Bible statement: 'one day to God is like 1000 years on earth'. This is mentioned twice, so we have the two required 'witnesses'. It is a specific statement, so to say it just shows an undermined time period, is wrong.
I would expect that anyone who objected to my calculation of 'about 20 years', would do so by showing that period [between the Seventh Seal and the Return] could not be correct. But it is, in fact, a very good possibility/probability when all that must happen before the Return is considered.

 

[Trekson]

Hi Keras, I know where you come from and one should take the effort to learn the other person's viewpoint. I am not pre-trib!!!! I am pre-wrath and there is a great difference between the two. So Christ was prophesied to be in the grave for 3000 yrs. then? I think not!