How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

[Taken]

How Confidant Are You Being Saved?

Very Confidant Christ the Lord HAS Saved me.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bdavidc]

that's not a twist?

they are cast into the lake of fire vis there name was scratched out!

thks

No, the twist is saying their name was scratched out when the text does not say that. Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” It says they were not found written there. It does not say they were once written there as born again believers and then removed.

That is the part you keep adding. Revelation 22:19 is a serious warning against taking away from the words of the prophecy of this book. I believe that warning. But it does not say Christ’s sheep perish. It does not say the sealed believer becomes unsealed. It does not say the one who has passed from death unto life goes back into death.

Jesus said, “I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish” John 10:28. He did not say they might perish later if someone builds an argument from Revelation 22:19.

Revelation also speaks of the lost as those “whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world” Revelation 17:8. That fits Revelation 20:15. They are judged because they are not found written there.

So again, you still have to prove the actual claim. Show where Scripture says a truly born again believer, justified by faith, sealed by the Spirit, and passed from death unto life, can have his name scratched out and be cast into the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:15 does not say that. Revelation 22:19 does not say that. Jesus said His sheep shall never perish. I believe Him.

 

[bdavidc]

So, universalism is correct doctrine?

No. That is not universalism. Saying Christ is the Savior of sinners does not mean every sinner is saved. Scripture is clear that not all are saved. Jesus said, “he that believeth not is condemned already” John 3:18. Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”

My point was that your analogy misses the nature of the gospel. Christ is not looking at sinners to see who is attractive enough, willing enough, or worthy enough to pick. We are not the prom queen trying to win His attention. We are guilty sinners who need mercy.

The gospel is not universalism, and it is not human merit either. Jesus saves those who believe on Him. “He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life” John 3:36.

That keeps both truths where Scripture puts them. Christ is a real Savior, not a helpless offer. But those who reject the Son remain under condemnation.

 

[Wrangler]

Saying Christ is the Savior of sinners does not mean every sinner is saved.

Your logic, not too good.

Saying Boston is the home of Bostonians doesn't mean every Bostonian is from Boston.​

​

Also, you're reading into an unqualified text a qualifier that is not in evidence.

To say apples are red does not mean that all apples are red.​

Said differently, IF there is a subset of sinners who are not saved, one must conclude:

• they are among those who may not saved, AND
• that Jesus is not the Savior of ALL sinners, which makes
• your general claim that Jesus is the Savior of sinners a specious claim.

 

[Taken]

IMO-
God Has Record Book-S of Evidence.

Book of Life…
A Record of all Names of Born Humans.
These, Rejecting God, shall be Blotted Out.

Lambs Book of Life…
A Record of all Names Baptized by the Lamb of God, while still in their Living Body.
They Redeemed, Risen, Whole, By Christ The Lord….
Rapture, Before Great Trib.

Book of Life, they who Believe IN God at the moment of their mortal Death…
Names Not Blotted out…the Book of Life
They Saved at the moment their Body Mortally Dies.
They Redeemed, Risen, Whole, By God…
First Resurrection, After Great Trib, 1,000 yr Reign.

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[Taken]

No, the twist is saying their name was scratched out when the text does not say that. Revelation 20:15 says, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” It says they were not found written there. It does not say they were once written there as born again believers and then removed.

Some Names shall be Blotted out of “the”Book of Life.
Whose Names?
The individual who does NOT overcome.
Blotting out of ones Name Does NOT apply to the Saved, who Has overcome Eternal Death.
Rev 3:5

Overcome What? Eternal Death.

A blotted out Name ( in the book of life ) obviously thereafter, that individuals name, will not be in the book.

No name in that book…
Judgement of Eternal Death and forever separation From God.

The one who has been Saved by The Lamb of God…
HAS ALSO his Name written IN the “Lambs Book of Life” (before his mortal Death)…
And…
His name can NEVER be Blotted out of the Lambs book of Life.
(Ie. OSAS)

Glory to God,
Taken

 

[bdavidc]

Your logic, not too good.

Saying Boston is the home of Bostonians doesn't mean every Bostonian is from Boston.​

​

Also, you're reading into an unqualified text a qualifier that is not in evidence.

To say apples are red does not mean that all apples are red.​

Said differently, IF there is a subset of sinners who are not saved, one must conclude:

• they are among those who may not saved, AND
• that Jesus is not the Savior of ALL sinners, which makes
• your general claim that Jesus is the Savior of sinners a specious claim.

The problem is not my logic. The problem is that you are forcing a universal conclusion into wording that does not state one. When I say Christ is the Savior of sinners, I am not saying every sinner is saved. I am saying sinners are the kind of people Christ came to save. That is exactly what Paul said: “Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief” 1 Timothy 1:15.

Paul was not teaching universal salvation there. He was saying Christ came to save guilty people. Lost people. Condemned people. People who have no righteousness of their own.

Your apple example actually works against you. Saying apples are red does not mean every apple is red. In the same way, saying Christ saves sinners does not mean every sinner is saved. It means sinners are the ones who need saving, and Christ is the only Savior they have.

The Bible gives the qualifier plainly. “He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already” John 3:18. And John 3:36 says, “he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”

That is the issue. Christ is the Savior of sinners, but Scripture never says every sinner is saved. It says the unbelieving sinner remains condemned.

 

[Wrangler]

The problem is not my logic. The problem is that you are forcing a universal conclusion into wording that does not state one.

LOL. It's a logical problem on your part. So, we agree universal salvation is not proper doctrine but you keep side stepping the point that (some) believers, even those who performed miracles in Jesus' name are not saved. This doesn't suggest certainty of our outcome is in order.

 

[Scott Downey]

Bible Gateway passage: Acts 4:11-13 - 21st Century King James Version

This is `the stone which was set at nought by you builders and which has become the head of the corner.' Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved." Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived...

www.biblegateway.com

11 This is ‘the stone which was set at nought by you builders and which has become the head of the corner.’

12 Neither is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved.”

The above and below in no way applies a universal salvation of all men. Just that Jesus is the only Savior of men, there is no one else today.
Without Christ revealing to you the Father, you will not know the Father and the Son.

Matthew 11:27
“All things are delivered unto Me by My Father, and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal Him.

 

[faithhopecharity]

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

assurance of salvation?

2 Peter 1:10
Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

assurance of salvation?


negate the word of God

the parable of the prodigal son is rendered meaningless by the doctrine of eternal security



supernatural virtue of hope!

Hope is the supernatural virtue by which we firmly trust that God, who is all-powerful and faithful to His promises, will in His mercy give us eternal happiness and the means to obtain it.

Romans 8:24-25

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

Sin of Presumption: Hoping to be saved without merit or repentance, relying only on God's mercy.

 

[faithhopecharity]

I am not confusing justification with salvation. I am refusing to separate what God joins together. Justification is not the whole of salvation, but it is part of salvation. Those whom God justifies, He also glorifies.

Paul says, “Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified” ~Romans 8:30.

There is no category there for a man who is truly justified by God and then finally damned.

And yes, I will include Ephesians 2:10, because Paul included it. You cannot stop at verse 9 and then turn verse 10 into the means of earning eternal salvation. The order matters.

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works” ~Ephesians 2:8-10.

Verse 10 does not say good works are the means of attaining eternal salvation. It says those who are saved by grace are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Good works are the fruit and purpose of the new creation, not the payment that obtains eternal life.

That is the same order Paul gives in Titus: “Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us” ~Titus 3:5.

Then after that, Paul says believers should “be careful to maintain good works” ~Titus 3:8.

Saved by mercy. Then careful to maintain good works. That is the biblical order.

As for grace being resistible, sinners do resist the Holy Spirit. Stephen said, “Ye do always resist the Holy Ghost” ~Acts 7:51. But that does not mean God’s saving grace fails to save those who truly belong to Christ. Jesus said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me” ~John 6:37. He also said, “And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day” ~John 6:39.

Grace does not force a man to love God like a robot. Grace gives life to a dead sinner, changes the heart, brings him to Christ, and keeps him.

“We love him, because he first loved us” ~1 John 4:19.

So no, Ephesians 2:10 does not teach that we attain eternal salvation by faithful service. It teaches that those saved by grace are made new and walk in the good works God prepared for them.

You are still turning the fruit of salvation into the condition for final salvation. Scripture keeps the order clear. Christ saves. Grace changes. Faith works. God keeps.

scripture does teach conditional perseverance unto salvation

thks

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

 

[Scott Downey]

scripture does teach conditional perseverance unto salvation

thks

ex 20 mt 19:17 1 tim 6:14 keep the commandments
deut 6:5 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God within all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.
ez 36:25-27 ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Mk 13:13 mt 10:22 endure to the end
Matt 7:14 narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life
Matt 16:24 If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.
Matt 24:13 endure to the end
Jn 3:16 continues in believing
Jn 15:4 abide in christ
Jn 15:5 apart from me you can do nothing
Jn 15:10 keep my commandments
Rom 1:5 obedience
Rom 8:13-17 but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.
Rom 11:22 if thou continue in his goodness:
1 cor 7:24 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:7 Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things.
1 cor 13:13 (3) three things are eternal; faith, hope and charity and the greatest is charity.
2 thes 1:4 faith & patience
heb 6:12 faith and patience inherit the promises.
Gal 5:2-4 fallen
Gal 5:25 if we live in the spirit
Col 1:21-23 If ye continue in the faith
Col 2:5 steadfast
2 Tim 2:3 endure hardship
2 Tim 2:12 If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
1 pet 2:20 if we suffer patiently
1 Jn 2:24-28 grace must abide in us
1 Jn 3:6 abideth in Him (Christ)
21 Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.
Heb 3:4-6 if we hold fast
Heb 6:4-9 if they fall away
Heb 12:7 if ye endure
Heb 12:22-25 if we turn away
James 1:12 endureth

All those verses describing the condition of mans heart, not the eternal divine perspective of those that are saved.

They are all statements of fact.
Point is the sheep hear, believe and follow Christ.
Them that do not, are not of His sheep, as He told you.

Examples of what we are not to be like, and in a way signs of a life not saved. We see them as a pattern.
Some of a pattern pointing toward salvation, and others as a pattern pointing to damnation.

Bible Gateway passage: 1 Corinthians 10 - 21st Century King James Version

Moreover, brethren, I would not have ye ignorant of how all of our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea. And all ate the same spiritual meat, and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that...

www.biblegateway.com

Moreover, brethren, I would not have ye ignorant of how all of our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea,

2 and all were baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea.

3 And all ate the same spiritual meat,

4 and all drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ.

5 But with many of them God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness.

6 Now these things were our examples, to the intent that we should not lust after evil things, as they also lusted.

7 Neither be ye idolaters, as were some of them; as it is written: “The people sat down to eat and drink, and rose up to play.”

8 Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed — and three and twenty thousand fell in one day.

9 Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted — and were destroyed by serpents.

10 Neither should ye murmur, as some of them also murmured — and were destroyed by the destroyer.

11 Now all these things happened unto them by way of example, and are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Therefore let him that thinketh he standeth, take heed lest he fall.

13 There hath no temptation taken hold of you but such as is common to man. But God is faithful; He will not suffer you to be tempted beyond that which ye are able to bear, but with the temptation will also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it.

14 Therefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say.

16 The cup of blessing which we bless: is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break: is it not the communion of the body of Christ?

17 For we, being many, are one bread and one body, for we are all partakers of that one Bread.

 

[bdavidc]

scripture does teach conditional perseverance unto salvation

Listing a lot of verses does not prove the point unless those verses actually teach that a man can be truly justified by God, born of the Spirit, given eternal life, sealed by the Spirit, and then finally perish. That is the issue.

I agree that Scripture teaches endurance, obedience, abiding, suffering, faith, patience, and love. I am not denying any of those verses. The question is whether those things are the root that earns final salvation, or the fruit of God’s saving work in a real believer.

Jesus said, “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me” John 10:27. That is perseverance. But then He immediately says, “And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand” John 10:28. The following is real, but the keeping belongs to Christ.

That is why Romans 8:13 says, “if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” It does not say we mortify sin in our own strength to earn life. It says “through the Spirit.” The same Spirit who gives life also produces holiness in those who belong to Christ.

The same is true in Ezekiel 36. You quoted “ye shall keep my judgments, and do them,” but the context gives the cause. God says, “A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you” and “I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes” Ezekiel 36:26-27. That is not man keeping himself saved. That is God changing the heart and causing obedience.

Colossians 1:23 says, “If ye continue in the faith,” and I believe that. But continuing does not contradict God keeping His people. It proves the reality of the faith. Hebrews says the same thing: “For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end” Hebrews 3:14. Holding fast does not make Christ ours by merit. Holding fast shows that we truly are partakers of Christ.

That is also why John wrote, “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us” 1 John 2:19. Their failure to continue did not prove they lost true salvation. It proved they were “not of us.”

Jude 21 says, “Keep yourselves in the love of God,” but the same passage ends by saying God is “able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy” Jude 24. Scripture gives commands to believers, but it also tells us God is the One who keeps His own.

Matthew 19 does not prove salvation by commandment keeping either. Jesus told the rich young ruler, “if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments” Matthew 19:17, and then exposed that man’s heart. The disciples understood the weight of it and asked, “Who then can be saved?” Jesus answered, “With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible” Matthew 19:25-26. That passage does not teach that sinners can earn life by law-keeping. It shows man’s inability and God’s power to save.

Galatians 5:4 also does not teach that a justified believer loses salvation by failing to work hard enough. Paul is rebuking those seeking justification by the law. He says, “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.” That is not a warning against grace alone. It is a warning against leaving grace and going back to law as the ground of justification.

Yes, believers endure. Yes, believers obey. Yes, believers abide. Yes, believers are warned. But none of that overturns Romans 8:30: “whom he justified, them he also glorified.” There is still no category in that text for a man truly justified by God and then finally damned.

The biblical order is still the same. Christ saves. The Spirit gives life. Grace changes the heart. Faith works by love. God keeps His people. The fruit is real, but the fruit is not the ground of eternal life.

Please answer these questions:

If final salvation depends on your faithful obedience and good works, do you have enough obedience and good works right now to enter heaven?

If not, how many more do you need before God counts it as enough?

 

[Wrangler]

Listing a lot of verses does not prove the point unless those verses actually teach that a man can be truly justified by God, born of the Spirit, given eternal life, sealed by the Spirit, and then finally perish. That is the issue.

Listing a lot of verses totally proves the point.

It is you who are pretending a litany of manmade doctrine supersedes God's word on the topic. The mantra is ... yabut it don't apply to a man truly justified by God, born of the Spirit, given eternal life, sealed by the Spirit, and then finally perish.