How Could Have Satan Sinned?

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yes indeed, Kingdom Hall will soon fall.

Believe that all you want but as I said you'll be shocked when you see your religious organization fall, just as you can't believe that now, when you actually see it fall you'll still be so shocked you will not believe it will be happening before your very eyes.

 

[kcnalp]

Believe that all you want but as I said you'll be shocked when you see your religious organization fall, just as you can't believe that now, when you actually see it fall you'll still be so shocked you will not believe it will be happening before your very eyes.

But Barney, I don't belong to a "religious organization", you do.

 

[keithr]

Unfortunately, Christians are told the lie that Reincarnation does not exist and as a consequence, we see the ridiculous Fake News stories being posted on this very thread in a vain attempt at making the lie stick.

"Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment" (Heb 9:27).

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

But Barney, I don't belong to a "religious organization", you do.

Then you're not a Christian. True Christians recognize the True Church who has Jesus Christ as the head and that has God Holy Spirit. They meet there with fellow Christians.

 

[Base12]

"Inasmuch as it is appointed for men to die once, and after this, judgment" (Heb 9:27).

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Hell . . . The Good News.

If Children come from Hell, how did they get there to begin with?

 

[April_Rose]

I'm sorry, it was either AR or WS who said that, my bad

Actually, I do believe that @Cristo Rei was the one who asked the question.

 

[keithr]

Revelation 20:14
"And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death."

Precisely.

(Rev 21:8) But for the cowardly, unbelieving, sinners, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their part is in the lake that burns with fire and sulfur, which is the second death.”

We live once, then die, are resurrected, then there is God's judgement. Those that are judged unworthy of eternal life are destroyed, which will be their second death. Death will also be destroyed so that there will be no more death (Rev 21:4 "He will wipe away every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; neither will there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain, any more. The first things have passed away”). So reincarnation is inconsistent with God's word.

 

[DNB]

Not wanting to derail A_R's thread but to answer this question I must ask, who was the witness or the reporter in heaven that recorded this conversation with God?
I must also ask, does Satan need to ask God for permission before he carries out his evil plans on Earth?....and, do God and Satan really have this sort of ongoing relationship? ....is God complicate to the evil perpetrated on Earth?
Hmmm, ok.....this is not funny if these things are true.....which I don't think they are.

The Hebrews loved a good story; they were story tellers and told stories to convey lessons. They never asked, 'is this a true story?' in the sense of, is it factual as we might mean/ask. If you ask a Jew this question they will say, 'of course it's a true story' in the same sense we would understand let's say the story of 'The boy who cried, 'wolf'. The factual aspect is irrelevant, it's not even in the picture....what is important is the lesson it conveys. In that sense it is true even if the details were just a fabrication. Jesus did this when he told the story of the rich man and Lazarus to make a point.....the point being, 'if they don't believe the scriptures they won't believe even if a miracle is done'. He was not giving us a lesson on the state of the dead.

Why are you equating the story of Job, with that of the parable of Lazarus & the rich man? I believe that you were correct in conveying the meaning of the parable of Lazarus, but, the point being, Jesus or the narrator, introduced the story as a parable, Job is presented as a historical fact. Although the rhetoric employed literary conventions of poetry and stanza, there is nothing within the book itself that declares it as, or infers it to be, fiction. Even an author of the New Testament referred to it as historicity (James 5:11).

 

[DNB]

Hi, I don’t believe I asked if it’s okay to hate Satan. I really don’t think about it. I despise everything rotten he stands for, and I fight him everyday as I intercede for myself, my family, other Christians, the lost, and my country....

...your country? Who's Kingdom are you defending, or which do you belong to?

 

[DNB]

Do angels have free will, I didn't think they did.

I would think that they do, otherwise God wouldn't need them for anything. For, He could manifest into existence anything that He wanted, in order to get the job done that He sent the angels to do? Or, that He doesn't make robots. Plus, there are many depictions in the Bible of the angels praising and worshipping God, and exalting Jesus. This would be extremely artificial and insincere if they did not have free will, in the same manner that we do - that love may be authentic and devout.

 

[DNB]

Satan desires to take all he can with him to destruction. God has no interest in giving man a hard time for any reason. That is not to say that hard times don't challenge us......but even more, good times challenge us also.

Re Job....this story tells us it was Satan who afflicted Job....not God..... even if Job mistakenly thought it was God as did his friends. His friends went a step further.....they assumed Job had brought it on himself and deducted it was God punishing him.
So much for man's mistaken logic and the certainty with which they accuse Job.

The scripture tells us that God does not tempt people neither does he use a third party to hide from responsibility.....God is no coward. It is Satan who aligns the thinking of men to make God appear as the culprit, the one who brings suffering upon mankind......and people believe it.....particularly 'religious' people. It is Satans objective to malign God!

But, ultimately it was God who afflicted Job. Maybe not, the actual infliction of sores and familial death, but the allowance of Satan to do so, was ratified by God. For, in the end, it was God who challenged Job on His right to do whatever that He wants, that is, He did not excuse Himself by saying that it was Satan, and not Him. But, rather, He clearly intimated that He was responsible, by stating that all things are under His control and that His ways are beyond human comprehension and control - '...where were you when I created the universe and all that it contains...'

 

[quietthinker]

Why are you equating the story of Job, with that of the parable of Lazarus & the rich man? I believe that you were correct in conveying the meaning of the parable of Lazarus, but, the point being, Jesus or the narrator, introduced the story as a parable, Job is presented as a historical fact. Although the rhetoric employed literary conventions of poetry and stanza, there is nothing within the book itself that declares it as, or infers it to be, fiction. Even an author of the New Testament referred to it as historicity (James 5:11).

it matters not if the story of Job is historical or fiction.....what matters is the lesson it conveys.......and what is that lesson is the question!

 

[DNB]

it matters not if the story of Job is historical or fiction.....what matters is the lesson it conveys.......and what is that lesson is the question!

Well, not always. Not when we are trying to determine the ontology and boundaries of Satan. Like you implied, we do not derive doctrine from parables, but we do from verified historical occurrences. This OP is discussing satanology, if you will. Therefore, we are attempting to reference any Biblical material that carries facts about him.

 

[quietthinker]

But, ultimately it was God who afflicted Job. Maybe not, the actual infliction of sores and familial death, but the allowance of Satan to do so, was ratified by God. For, in the end, it was God who challenged Job on His right to do whatever that He wants, that is, He did not excuse Himself by saying that it was Satan, and not Him. But, rather, He clearly intimated that He was responsible, by stating that all things are under His control and that His ways are beyond human comprehension and control - '...where were you when I created the universe and all that it contains...'

If God is in cahoots with Satan regarding the affliction of men the story of Jesus is a sick game.
If one wants to make the story of Job walk on all fours so to speak you have the same scenario as all the pagan religions where good and evil share the same bed.....the same assumptions and judgements that Job's friends made.

 

[DNB]

If God is in cahoots with Satan regarding the affliction of men the story of Jesus is a sick game.
If one wants to make the story of Job walk on all fours so to speak you have the same scenario as all the pagan religions where good and evil share the same bed.....the same assumptions and judgements that Job's friends made.

But, you know how things work, if someone puts themselves in a position where they need to be rebuked, admonished or disciplined, does not God at times, utilize wicked men for such purposes? Was not the divided Kingdoms of Israel and Judah afflicted by pagan and evil regimes, in accordance with God's approbation and incitement (as was foretold by Jeremiah and Isaiah)? And weren't those who took part in Israel's captivity, punished in turn by God who used other irreverent and brutal kingdoms to exact His justice?
Were not the Hebrews, after the death of Joseph, oppressed under pagan Pharaoh, as Joseph had predicted (as a prophet of God)?

 

[quietthinker]

all who choose to remove themselves from God's protecting hand become fair game for Satan and his minions be that Israel or Christians

 

[DNB]

all who choose to remove themselves from God's protecting hand become fair game for Satan and his minions be that Israel or Christians

So, who killed Jesus, and why? Did Jesus remove himself from God's protection?

 

[quietthinker]

So, who killed Jesus, and why? Did Jesus remove himself from God's protection?

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

I don't know the ins and outs of how God has done for us what we could not do for ourselves. What I do know is that God has communicated his love to me in Jesus through his Spirit and as one author says, "this mystery will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity."

 

[DNB]

Isaiah 53:6
We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to our own way;
and the Lord has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.

I don't know the ins and outs of how God has done for us what we could not do for ourselves. What I do know is that God has communicated his love to me in Jesus through his Spirit and as one author says, "this mystery will be the science and the song of the redeemed throughout the ceaseless ages of eternity."

I still think that Job was an historical account of a man inflicted by God, through the means of Satan, in order to bring Job to a greater understanding and reverence, for his maker. And, to offer insight to the reader of God's sovereignty, and to the virtue of patience even while amidst the most dire circumstances.

 

[quietthinker]

I still think that Job was an historical account of a man inflicted by God, through the means of Satan, in order to bring Job to a greater understanding and reverence, for his maker. And, to offer insight to the reader of God's sovereignty, and to the virtue of patience even while amidst the most dire circumstances.

1 John gives us a window into God's reality, and I would highlight vs 5 'This is the message we have heard from him (Jesus) and declare unto you, that God is light and in him is no darkness at all.

This qualifies the epitome of God.....as manifested in Jesus. He would rather die than violate love...because, he can do no other....it is his nature.

It is the evil one who attempts to paint God with his own colours....all the while wearing a cloak of piety. Thats how he does it. He makes us think that God has a dark side (as the Jews believe) but John gives testimony that they (Jesus's mates) have seen and heard and touched the life that was with the Father and declare 'there is no darkness in him at all.

Wow....what do I do with this? because it throws out any idea that God has a dark side to himself irrespective of what sort of theological language I couch it in.