How did the Trinity doctrine develop in the early church?

[GodsGrace]

That the false gospel has fueled a proliferation of prosperity preachers, and the world is now overrun with them.

You realize they hold the same doctrinal errors as you?

Which doctrinal errors do I hold?

(that are the same as the prosperity gospel).

 

[GodsGrace]

Every generation faces its own ‘last hour’, a call to prove everything and uphold the original Gospel as taught by the Apostles. Today, that Gospel is absent from mainstream Christendom.

Could you please state the gospel as taught by the Apostles....
Which part of this is missing from today's Christendom?

Seems like you also are worried about the direction of Christendom...
which is the subject of the other thread.

 

[GodsGrace]

Good question - hope you are not with Pontius Pilate? And if so, are you able to accept the answer?

Jesus remained silent as he embodied truth in every way but maybe not as you perceive.

Jesus remained silent because Pilot was staring Him in the face...
TRUTH INCARNATE....

So how do I perceive the truth?

You keep stating what I believe...
how about stating the belief?

 

[GodsGrace]

Well you are a perfect example that a false belief can twist the mind and harm understanding. They act like filters....you read a scripture and the filter changes the meaning so you do not understand the true meaning of the scripture.

Actually, this is why I go to the ECFs many times.
They were taught by the Apostles...the next generation.

If we can trust the Apostles to know that Jesus was resurrected,,,
we can certainly trust them to know what Jesus taught and that they CORRECTLY passed this information on to the next generations.

Yeshua and the Apostles would never say that He was the only God. But yes it can be said that Yeshua is the God of Christianity.....get it the religion named after Him. And yes Yahweh and Yeshua are one and Yeshua explained the meaning of that one and we are included in that one.

So you're saying that we are one with God in the same way that Jesus is one with God?
So we possess the following?

Hebrews 1:2-3
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,

1. We are made heirs of ALL things?
2. We made the world?
3. We are the radiance of glory?
4. We are the exact representation of God's nature?
5. We uphold everything through His power?
6. Did we make purification for sins?
7. Are we sitting at the right hand of God?


We are NOT one with God.
(as Jesus was).

The power of false beliefs.....especially old one. In college we covered the power of false beliefs and the harm they can cause understanding. And they come in many forms......but they are beliefs and words imposed on scriptures. For example most believe that the ten summaries in chapter 20 of exodus are the Ten Commandments and were written on the two tablets of the testimony. When the ten laws Yahweh called commandments are in chapter 34 of Exodus. There He tells Moses to write them on the tablets of the testimony. And the scripture says Moses wrote them on the tablets, the Ten Commandments. The ten laws in chapter 20 are summaries of the Mosaic Law.

No Christian believes the 10 commandments are a false belief or that they did not exist before.
They are the Moral Law.

Then you have the doctrine of Original Sin were babies go to Hell. Which was one of the reasons that the Catholic Church was motivated to baptize infants.

I'll be happy to discuss original sin with you.
The early church NEVER taught that babies are going to hell.
You're speaking about Augustine here and he lived in the 5th century.

I NEVER refer to the early church beyond the second generation of theologians.

Then you have theological words like fornication that produce false beliefs. The word Trinity is great but people attached a false belief to it. Some believe the devil and Hell was in the Old Testament and most of that was caused by changing the scriptures through the translational process.....like using the word Hades which is Greek word stuck in a Hebrew text when Hades is a Greek god.

You're right.
There is only one place in the NT where the words used in the OT are correctly translated:
2 Peter 2:4
4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment;


So, does this mean that hell does not exist? (because some words were incorrectly translated? The IDEA is still present in the translations).

Words do not make doctrine...
what they represent make the doctrine.

Trinity means nothing.
What is represents is what has meaning.

I have been involved with trying to rescue Jehovah Witness victims and boy you see the power of false beliefs and how it can put them into a different reality. They have an alternate belief for a lot of truths. Their religion is drilled into their heads. I have seen for myself.

I have also seen it.
They happen to be very well trained using a method that Christians do not use.

They believe Jesus is a created being.
You proffer 3 gods.

Both are incorrect GH.

I am just glad that whether a person believes in three Gods or the three in one it is not a matter of salvation.

I've always said that correct doctrine is not what saves.

BUT
correct doctrine does define a religion.

 

[Grailhunter]

Actually, this is why I go to the ECFs many times.
They were taught by the Apostles...the next generation.

If we can trust the Apostles to know that Jesus was resurrected,,,
we can certainly trust them to know what Jesus taught and that they CORRECTLY passed this information on to the next generations.

Yes but the filter of the false belief in your head interprets what they say. The 3 in 1 belief does not start until the 4th century.

 

[Jack]

Yes but the filter of the false belief in your head interprets what they say. The 3 in 1 belief does not start until the 4th century.

From the CYB Statement of Faith: "We believe that God is the Creator, Sustainer, and Ruler of the universe. We attest that God has eternally existed in three persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These three are co-equal and are one God. (Genesis 1:1, 26-27, Genesis 3:22, Deuteronomy 6:4, Psalm 90:2, John 1:1, John 10:30, Romans 3:30, II Corinthians 13:14, I Peter 1:2)"

 

[Grailhunter]

So you're saying that we are one with God in the same way that Jesus is one with God?
So we possess the following?

I am saying Yeshua said it.....Oness is a concept of unity not the number 1.
The New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the oneness concept. Speaking to God the Father (He was not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”.....So the "Oneness" is something that applies or will apply to all of us and we are not gods nor will we ever be gods.

 

[Grailhunter]

No Christian believes the 10 commandments are a false belief or that they did not exist before.
They are the Moral Law.

I do not know what you mean by this. What is your point?

 

[Jack]

Jesus is God! Ain't no doubt about it!

 

[Grailhunter]

I'll be happy to discuss original sin with you.
The early church NEVER taught that babies are going to hell.
You're speaking about Augustine here and he lived in the 5th century.

Correct

 

[GodsGrace]

Yes but the filter of the false belief in your head interprets what they say. The 3 in 1 belief does not start until the 4th century.

You're repeating GH.
I posted many statements by the Early Church Fathers (those taught by the Apostles) stating that Jesus is God.

THIS is what was taught in the early church.

I don't have a filter...I just go by scripture and the writings of those the Apostles taught are also very interesting when they agree.

The Trinity was CONFIRMED at the Council of Nicea in 325AD due to arianism..the belief that Jesus was a man.

He was either a man
or God.

And there is only one God....
so we have to reach an understanding of WHO or WHAT Jesus was.

It has already been established and we should not be unestablishing it...as Christians.

 

[Grailhunter]

I have also seen it.
They happen to be very well trained using a method that Christians do not use.

They believe Jesus is a created being.
You proffer 3 gods.

Both are incorrect GH.

Yeshua is not created......The scriptures say He was begotten and born.

 

[Jack]

The Trinity is confirmed several times in the Bible! That's what matters to Christians!

 

[GodsGrace]

I am saying Yeshua said it.....Oness is a concept of unity not the number 1.
The New Testament Yeshua gives us a clearer explanation of the oneness concept. Speaking to God the Father (He was not talking to Himself) Yeshua says this about the concept of one...John 17:22 “And the glory which to them; that they may be one just as We are one.” Because Yeshua says “just as” this is an exactness, a duplication of a condition that we can achieve, and He states that this condition of “oneness” can apply to us, but it has nothing to do with absorption or singularity, but rather a condition of spiritual union and solidarity between God and us. The next verse further defines this by describing a unity with Christ that would cause the same condition with us as it did with them, a condition of perfection. Again, not talking to Himself, in John 17:23 “I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, that the world may know that You did send Me, and do love them, even as you do love Me.” In this context millions of people could be made one...one being a abstract concept of one, but a more literal meaning of unity, solidarity, and perfection and even a “body” that is considered one....the body of Christ or the body of the Church. And then, the next verse is probably one of the best verses to put this oneness concept into perspective. The leading verses are speaking of the works of the Holy Spirit and then ends with this explanation. 1st Corinthians 12:11-13 “But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills. For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.”.....So the "Oneness" is something that applies or will apply to all of us and we are not gods nor will we ever be gods.

Must leave again...
Later.

 

[Grailhunter]

So, does this mean that hell does not exist? (because some words were incorrectly translated? The IDEA is still present in the translations).

Ok GodsGrace don't do this.....You know there is a Hell.....And I have explained this in detail do not pretend that I have not.

 

[GodsGrace]

Yeshua is not created......The scriptures say He was begotten and born.

Explain what the english word BEGOTTEN means.
But later...

@Jack is making short, but absolutely correct statements.

 

[GodsGrace]

Ok GodsGrace don't do this.....You know there is a Hell.....And I have explained this in detail do not pretend that I have not.

But you're paying more attention to a WORD than to the concept it represents.

Hell exists...no matter what it's called and no matter if some believe it or not.

Some calling themselves Christian also do not believe in hell.
It just is getting worse and worse.

Must go.

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
, I don't deny that Jesus (God the Son) retrospectively remembered being involved in creation.
What I am saying is that He was not yet Jesus, God the Son, when that happened.

I'm not convinced that is correct. He came as a baby. A real, uneducated, uninformed child, who has to learn from scratch the same things we do. It was from Scripture, from studying prophecy, that He learned His true identity, and later confirmed by the Father at the baptism. Jesus was a student of Scripture, hence was able at a very young age to confound even the elders of Israel. From His dedication as a baby in the temple, his parents from that time were made acutely aware of their responsibility toward their child and taught him accordingly.

What about His involvement in creation?

1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father,
from whom all things came and for whom we live;
and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:15-16 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.

 

[Jack]

But you're paying more attention to a WORD than to the concept it represents.

Hell exists...no matter what it's called and no matter if some believe it or not.

Some calling themselves Christian also do not believe in hell.

They will. Everybody will.

It just is getting worse and worse.

Must go.

 

[Jack]

St. SteVen said:
, I don't deny that Jesus (God the Son) retrospectively remembered being involved in creation.
What I am saying is that He was not yet Jesus, God the Son, when that happened.

What about His involvement in creation?

Do you believe the Bible is God's Word? You keep running from my simple question.

Oh that's right, you said you don't trust the Bible.

1 Corinthians 8:6 NIV
yet for us there is but one God, the Father,
from whom all things came and for whom we live;
and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things came and through whom we live.

Colossians 1:15-16 NIV
The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.
16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth,
visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities;
all things have been created through him and for him.